




From: Howard Portugal <howardp@FAST.NET>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 12:50
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

I agree with Julia,

If he wants to reach out and try to channel his energy into Origami, who are
we to limit his creativity. Yes, he may be a horrible, rotten, misguided
person, but it's not our place to judge him, let the law do that. I think
that the EBay auctions should be prevented, but not his folding.

Howard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Origami Mailing List [mailto:Origami@MIT.Edu]On Behalf Of Julia
> Plffy
> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 9:17 AM
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng
>
>
> If a serial killer wants to do origami, why not? At least that is
> a harmless
> activity.
> If there are people who have the kindness to contribute to his folding, I
> think that's fine of them.
> I don't know what turns some people into monsters and criminals, but I do
> know true kindness can sometimes help people to become better.
> What disgusts me in the business is the guy who hit on the idea of
> auctioning origami folded by the serial killer, betting on the reputation
> his crimes gave him to attract morbid interest and make money out of that.
> Hyenas can't help being scavengers, but IMHO people should.
>
> Julia (idealist) Palffy
> Zug, Switzerland
> jupalffy@bluewin.ch





From: Dr Stephen O'Hanlon <fishgoth@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 12:52
Subject: Website update

Hi all,

Ive completed my beginners section and Im fairly happy with it. It includes
a 13 part tutorial with lots of basic models.

Ive also got the chess set diagrams running properly, and begun to give the
site a whole new look.

All comments about the new section (click on diagrams, click on beginners)
welcome, especially erata!

Thanks,

Stephen

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From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 12:54
Subject: Ng

No i am not in prison.
I now lead recovery meeting in the local jail and am involved with the
establishment of getting programs for families of the incarcerated in place.
What no one seems to realize is that folding can be used as a rehabilitative
tool for the prisoner. This in turn make for a more desirable atmosphere for
the other inmates as well as guards and various other employees.
Then too there are programs like RESTITUTIONINC.COM which sells artwork from
people on DEATH ROW and give part of the proceeds to the family of the
victim. Matter of fact if you go to site and look at the work of James
Allridge III you will be amazed to know that we became friends through THIS
LIST!
Next you will want to ban people like myself, who have been incarcerated,
from being on the list.
We live at a time of mass marketing and we should be questioning what it is
about ourselves that lets a company think by putting the label "fold by
serial killer" will up the bidding.
Do any of you remember the immigration detainees who did their modulars
which were sold to help pay for lawyers fees? Should we just send them back
to china?
Personally I think that there may be an investigation into What type of
person does Origami now that "they" know there is a serial killer amongst
US. Just kidding.
                     Mike
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From: Ronald Koh <ronkoh@SINGNET.COM.SG>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 13:15
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

Dorothy,

I am in full agreement with you as far as the horror of his deeds are
concerned.

When Charles wrote to me, I wasn't aware of his heinous crimes, or that
he was in prison for that matter. His first letter was in fact
channelled to me through FOCA/OUSA. Charles had read an article
mentioning my stegosaurus and wrote, initially, for some of my diagrams.
The address Charles provided was a P O Box number (29) in Represa,
Calif. No mention of 'prison'.

I took this as a normal request, and obliged. In subsequent
correspondence, he asked for origami paper. This was a little strange,
but again I obliged. I only got to know of his incarceration when his
second or third letter to me bore the rubber stamp: 'This letter is from
an inmate of the state prison at Folsom'. So he was a prisoner. I still
did not know what he was in for, and Charles never told me. And I
continued to provide him with paper. It was a simple gesture towards
what I had hoped would be the rehabilation of a fellow human being.

It was sometime after Charles stopped writing to me that I got to know
the extent of his crimes.

My earlier posting today was actually made in reply to a comment by Ron
Arruba, viz: "Maybe the "court denial" mentioned in the paper had to do
with the state prison system supplying the paper?"

The point I was trying to make was that Charles is probably not asking
for the state to provide him with origami paper, as it is likely that he
has written to other folders for supplies as well. Dr Lang's posting
(which I had not read before sending my earlier posting) seems to have
lent support to this possibility.

Was I using origami to reach out to Charles the serial killer? The
answer would be no. Would I have provided him with diagrams of my
origami and paper if I had known of his repugnant crimes? The truth is,
I don't know. I probably would, if only because I see no harm in it;
only a little good, no matter how undeserving it may be.

Ron.

Dorothy Engleman wrote:

Ronald,

With all due respect to you, I personally find the idea of reaching out
to mass murderer Ng by sharing origami with him terribly repugnant.

>
> As an artist, a humanist and an origami enthusiast, I am supportive of
> prisoners' participation in the arts.
>
> In respect to Charles Ng, who was convicted of eleven counts of
> first-degree murder last year, I see nothing wrong with his involvement
> in origami.  However, I am repulsed by the idea of reaching out to him
> and offering him a helping hand with his origami.  Charles Ng is not
> just another paperfolder.  He is a monster who has murdered eleven
> people and forever destroyed the lives of his victim's families.
> I realize not everyone shares my views. And despite our apparent
> differences on this issue, I have enormous respect and admiration for
> Ronald Koh.   I am a former crime victim and I wanted to bring another
> perspective to this discussion.
>
> Dorothy





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 13:20
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

My apologies for the length of this missive. I don't really know how to make
it shorter, or I would. If you want to stay most "on topic" skip to the end,
where I try to mutate this thead (I didn't change the subject line because the
bulk of this message is about it, but if you reply to the new stuff, please
change the subject line).

Cathy Palmer-Lister indited:

+humanity at all.  If origami can provide a doorway to humanity, then let us
+hope sending Ng bits of paper will help.  I can't see that it can do any
+harm.  I wish I could find it in my heart to do even this small thing, but
+I cannot, and I find it hideous that people are buying his projects.  Why
+are they doing this? I can only guess, but I doubt they are motivated by a
+need to advance humanity.

Ah... Thank you Cathy, you've indentified what is really bothering _me_
about this issue! That instead of censuring prisoners' use of origami,
we should be appalled by those who make it profitable. Its the same
misdirection that says we should fight the "war on drugs" against the
drug suppliers. In both of these cases we see capitalism at its finest
form:  supply meets demand. In both cases if there were no demand, we
would have no supply to be upset about. As compared to movies and books
that criminals have written, at least origami has an existance
potentially more removed from the crime/criminal - and as such it
probably also has less of the "but for the grace of god there go I"
value as well.

As to why someone would buy such things...
There does seem to be something of a fascination with the dark side of
human nature, its doings, and even, apparently in this case, just
objects in association. (Perhaps this is more so in the USA, or just
that such things elsewhere aren't reported/well-known here, I don't
know).

Cathy (and anyone else too): Would you be as repulsed by those who buy
books/paintings/sculptures produced by killers too? Does it matter if
they are still serving time when the art/product is created?
Does it merely matter what the crime(s) were? (I doubt books by petty
theives, or origami produced by such, would have much cachet, but that
is a slightly different question)

It seems to me that there _might_ be a few different things going on here
that may be confused or intertangled with each other:

        The desire to keep criminals for profitting from their crimes.
            (including wealth, fame, notority, etc.)
        A fascination by some (buyers in this case) with objects,
            retellings/accounts, associations with criminals (notorious
            or otherwise) and the behaviors that that results in:
                criminals taking advantage of it
                publishers and other middle men providing it (and taking
                    their cut of the profit)
                consumers buying it
                news purveyors reporting it
                etc.
        A feeling/belief that art forms can be tainted by association with
            particularly notorious practitioners.
        A feeling/belief that prisoners (in totality or just some groups)
            should not be offered any amelioration of their sentences, and
            certainly not through any use or assocation with origami.
        A feeling of guilt (as Cathy made explicit, and Dorothy might
            have hinted at) at not being able to reach out to a
            prisoner in particular, generated perhaps by a dissonance
            between one's beliefs-in-general versus one's
            actions-in-particular-cases.

To set out my prejudices, I feel that criminals should not
profit/benefit from their crimes. I am not as sure of my feelings but
don't like others profitting from them either (publishers for example),
but my dislike of that is the same dislike of news organizations
"making the news" to have some to report, or firefighters atarting
fires, etc. This is none-the-less a touchy subject, since I also have
strong 1st amendment feelings, in the sense that I don't think the
government should have the right to supress such things, and I do feel
that people should have the right to learn about them... but this is a
digression.

I don't think that art forms can be tainted by association unless we
let them be. Are kinfe makers more tainted by stabbers more
than by cooks or surgeons? (there is a trend in the USA to blame
gun manufacturers for actions committed with guns).

As for the latter items on the list above, at least regarding the
justice system in the USA, I am not in a position for most cases to
make a better assesment than "the system," whether or not origami (or
any art form) is appropriate for use by prisoners (or groups of certain
kinds of prisoners). Morally I don't feel as if criminals, a priori,
give up all rights and claims, by virtue of their conviction/guilt. Nor
do I feel that punishment is enough, for without some avenue for
change/rehabilitation I would not expect a prisoner to be any better
for the stay, nor the community any safer after their release, if they
make no change, nor have the opportunity to do so. So I would agree
with Cathy that if origami can be of some aid, I do not object.
Further, I don't feel as if I need to provide it, just because it is OK
or right to do so... (but this is getting further and further from the
topic of this list: origami).

To attempt to steer this back to a more relevant-to-this-list topic:

Is there anything about origami that makes it different from other
forms of art, in so far as it should be accorded special protection(s)
from undesireable associations? (such as with serial killers, to tie this to
the existing thread, at least temporarily)

I admit to some sympathy with the protection idea. Part of that
sympathy is pure selfishness: as my favorite hobby I wish it to be as
good as possible. Part of that sympathy is due to origami's current
tenuous and developing acceptance as an art form. I do not feel this
same impulse for painting, sculpture, music, etc., as those art forms
are long established and not easily hijacked by the fickle winds of the
impulses of the day. (I am _not_ saying that origami is only an art
form, for I willingly admit that it is also a craft, an educational or
rehabilitional tool, etc.) The protective feelings I have for origami and how
it is used (speaking again of artistic associations) are somewhat parental,
and I try to realize that as the art form grows and tries to gain acceptance,
it cannot be protected. If it can only survive by being protected, it isn't
much of an art form.

That's my buck-two-fifty for now,
        -D'gou





From: Anine Cleve <anine21@USA.NET>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 13:55
Subject: The Kawasaki Rose - the paper

Hej!

I hope none will kill me for asking this without having checked the archieves,
but the archieves are just too big a mess for me to find what I want in it.
I'm still working on making the Kawasaki rose really look like a rose. I've
found out that Kami is not good for it, so now my question is what kind of
paper gives the best results? I think I remember you've talked about backed
foil or something like that (I'm pretty new here and dont get half of your
expressions ;) Where can I find that kind of paper? I have to buy it on the
net cause I can't buy any origami things in my city.
Hope to hear some suggestions :)
Keep folding!
                 Anine

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From: Ron Arruda <arruda@CATS.UCSC.EDU>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 14:08
Subject: Candor appreciated

Ronald Koh and Mike Karanek,

Thank you both so much for your courage and candor in replies to my
initial question about Charles Ng. To stay silent is always the easy
way, the safe way. To "come out" is brave and true.

Ron Arruda





From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 14:27
Subject:

Thank you for the words of encouragement.
The discussion on the list upsets me because it appears that no one seems to
get it.
How can "we" account for the mind of another or for their actions. I don't
believe we can. However, if folding can in any way help to bring that
tormented soul to a place where they might one day  reveal their inner
thoughts to us , thank god.

Also maybe, just maybe the families of his victims wish him to come to peace
with himself in order for him to start a process of healing.
This may seem far fetched but I attend many talks about abolishing the death
penalty run by the Bruderhof a christen organization who befriended me while
I was incarcerated and have meet families of victims who do hold those
thoughts.

I was a non violent offender for 30 years, if you think of selling drugs as
non-violent. I don't any more, sell drugs or consider it non-violent. But
when I was in the thick of it I was for the Death Penalty. My life was
really changed by my folding just as I wrote. If it happened to me it could
happen to others!
                           Best mike
My direct address is kanarekorigami@hotmail.com
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From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 14:46
Subject: Re: The Kawasaki Rose - the paper

Hey Anine!  You know what works well, red xerox paper!  It looks thicker
and more natural without the shinyness of kami.

David





From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 14:48
Subject: Re: Charles Ng

At 11:25 AM 01/16/2000 -0800, Mike Kanarek wrote:
>...if folding can in any way help to bring that
>tormented soul to a place where they might one
>day  reveal their inner thoughts to us , thank god...

One of my relatives was brutally murdered and another critically injured in the
Long Island Rail Road Massacre -- yet my entire family (myself, included) is
still strongly opposed to the death penalty.  In the first place, heaven forbid
they convicted the wrong person.  Moreover, even if the convicted person was
guilty as charged, we all make mistakes -- and, as Christians (other religions
have similar convictions) have to believe that people can turn their lives
around and be completely rehabilitated.
(After all, in an awful lot of cases, one's heart bleeds for the criminal after
reading about his childhood, teens, etc.  For example, although I loathe
pedophiles, most became that way because they, themselves, were molested as
little boys, but no one heard their cries for help -- so I have to feel deeply
sorry for them, however much I want to keep my distance.)

The problem is that most of us have very limited free time and funds.  And most
of us simply feel that we have to devote that time/money to the victims rather
than the criminals, however fervently we may hope and pray that the criminal,
too, finds peace.

Although I, myself, certainly have no problem with Charles Ng folding, I do
have a problem with selling the works of a convicted serial killer as though he
were some sort of celebrity.  (And, like others, I strongly suspect that he
will be rewarded in some way, such as the actual recipients sending him books,
papers, and other treats he may want.)

JMHO.

"Scottie"                                      (The Scottish Terrier Lover)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                           NEW MAILING LISTS TO JOIN
GiftsFromTheHeart@onelist.com (making/giving perfect, "best ever" gifts)
Origami_Art@onelist.com               (folding, framing, using beautiful
origami)
QuilledArt@onelist.com                  (exquisite paper filigree, framed or
3-D)
Scherenschnitte@onelist.com      (cheap, beautiful paper cutting art)





From: Alan Shutko <ats@ACM.ORG>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 15:09
Subject: Folding on the go

[Delurking, hi!]

Given the amount of time I spend in lines of various sorts, for
airplanes, license renewal, you name it, I've been fairly interested
in portable origami as a way to pass the time.  My kit for many years
has consisted of a pack of 2" origami paper and a mechanical pencil.
I can use the tip of the pencil to get inside folds I can't put my
fingers in and the metal clip makes creases as sharp as possible.
Now, I can't really make anything complex out of 2" paper, but I can
work towards my thousand cranes and leave other classic models
wherever I go.

This is a great way to settle down loud and annoying children when
waiting as well, because they settle down quite quickly when handed a
frog the the size of their thumb.  (Side question: does folding and
giving away a thousand cranes count too?  It's certainly more fun that
way!)

I just picked up something which should make portable origami more
fun, a Leatherman Micra.  It's got a small knife, scissors, tweezers,
and a small screwdriver to fit inside tight folds, and fits on my
keychain.  I was wondering what kind of kits or stories other folders
have.

--
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - In a variety of flavors!
A child of five could understand this!  Fetch me a child of five.





From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 15:09
Subject: Re: Charles Ng

Yhank you very much. Your insight is heartfelt.
Please read my untitled letter.
        Mike
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From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 15:53
Subject: Re: JOA magazines versus BOS magazines

Simon <godnomis@CHARIOT.NET.AU> sez

>well I'd sooner see a dozen complex nightmares than 100 classic simple design`s

Each to their own - that's all part of the fun...

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@purplepeople.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/





From: Lynch Family <deenbob@ECENTRAL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 15:53
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

> I object to origami being sold on Ebay as Serial Killer Origami.  If one
> wishes to be recognized for his folding, let not the work be associated with
> foul deeds.  I, personally, find the idea of Ng gaining positive notoriety by
> having his stuff sold with the header "Serial Killer" outrageous.

Same here -- same thing as all those notorious people writing books from
prison ane even though the money is not SUPPOSED to go to them, they are
getting something out of it - the continued notoriety! Their name in the
papers, their name on best seller lists....

If Ng wants to fold in prison, let him. But don't let him be famous for
it. Personally, I would find it repugnant if *I* was folding and someone
knewe that Ng folded and associated the folding that I was doing with
him... (deos that even make sense?)

Dee





From: Lynch Family <deenbob@ECENTRAL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 16:06
Subject: Re: Folding on the go

Ahhh--- get yourself some 2" Japanese foil and you can make some complex
things! My favorite is Jeremy Shafer's Enterprise and the Yoda...
although Yoda really looks better in green!

> Now, I can't really make anything complex out of 2" paper, but I can
> work towards my thousand cranes and leave other classic models
> wherever I go.

I also find that a small plastic box (like you find paper clips or
thumbtacks in) helps keep the paper all together in a coat pocket (or in
my case purse)...

Dee





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 16:14
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

Dee Lynch indited:

+Same here -- same thing as all those notorious people writing books from
+prison ane even though the money is not SUPPOSED to go to them, they are
+getting something out of it - the continued notoriety! Their name in the
+papers, their name on best seller lists....

Indeed. And all those poor people who shelled out their hard earned
money, all those people who put those books on the best seller list,
why they are just poor dupes fooled into lionizing the criminals. That
a criminal would also be greedy doesn't suprise me. That we continue to
focus only on the supplier (criminal) to exclusion of the buyers is
wearing thin. That we are all just helpless consumers tricked into
making celebreties out of criminals is an insult.

As Mike has pointed out, the revenue generated could be used for
rehabilition, education, victim reimbursement, etc. But I doubt that
any of those uses would affect the popularity of the books or other
products to any signficant degree.

+If Ng wants to fold in prison, let him. But don't let him be famous for
+it. Personally, I would find it repugnant if *I* was folding and someone
+knewe that Ng folded and associated the folding that I was doing with
+him... (deos that even make sense?)

I think I might know what you mean, and that is part of what I tried to
address in my previous message, in part.

But I'm not quite clear... can you restate what you find repugnant?
That someone would associate you as a support of Ng because you do
origami? Or is it that they learned about origami because of Ng? That
origami is tainted because Ng does it, and there by you are tainted
when you do it? ???...

-D'gou





From: I M <eldo1960@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 16:16
Subject: Serial Killer Ng

It is an obscenity and an insult to the memories of a murderer's victims and
a slap in the face of their suffering families to even discuss the
perpetrator's "right to express himself through art" or any other such
garbage in a forum such as this.  Snap out of it. The prisoner in question
can get paper of some sort and fold to his heart's content.  Leave him alone
to do his thing, and quit worrying about it publicly.
IM

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From: Thoki Yenn <thok@THOK.DK>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 16:39
Subject: Sv:      Thoki's Birthday

>From kalmon@thok.dk

Thank you,
all of you who so kindly
sent  your greetings to the
3 x 3 x 3 x 3 years birthday of
the old Geezer. .

I will very soon get around to sending
Thank You  messages to those of you
who sent birthday greetings to
the private e-mail adr. of  the old geezer.
thokiyenn@get2net.dk

I can tell you that he is deeply touched
and I am kept busy wyping his nose and his eyes
which are constantly running not only under the influence
of emotion but also under the influence of influenza..

on behalf of Thok 00,  I send you my greetings
and sign off.

The Great and Glorious
(in some peoples eyes even the magnificent)
Kalmon of the North
kalmon@thok.dk
the keeper of the site
http://www.thok.dk/origami.html





From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 16:41
Subject: Re: Serial Killer Ng

i can't help it!!!
I sit here watching the e-mail come in and i love it. This is great. I
belong to 2 lists, ours and the LAMP of HOPE a death penalty list.
they account for 3/4 of my mail and this is the most excited i've been about
Origami and it's devotee's in a long while.

Once again you prove what a diversified group we are!
                             Mike
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From: Lynch Family <deenbob@ECENTRAL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 16:50
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

> But I'm not quite clear... can you restate what you find repugnant?
> That someone would associate you as a support of Ng because you do
> origami? Or is it that they learned about origami because of Ng? That
> origami is tainted because Ng does it, and there by you are tainted
> when you do it? ???...

I would be horrified if someone saw me folding, and perhaps because of
the notoriety of Ng folding in prison, said to me something like "Oh you
are doing origami like that serial killer." Sort of associating me with
him, through the folding.

That is repugnant.

Dee





From: bethstern <bethstern@FREEWWWEB.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 17:11
Subject: Re: ORIGAMI Digest - 15 Jan 2000 to 16 Jan 2000 (#2000-16)

I'm sorry I quoted the whole origami digest...
I didn't realize I had the "include message in reply" clicked....

Beth
Have a Bob Day
http://www.geocities.com/tayster97/
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/9109/origami.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/9109/Renaldo.html
New York Does Not Need Hillary Clinton





From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 17:15
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

would you feel the same if you were in church and the person associated you
with a killer who attends church?
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From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 17:54
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

Dee Lynch indited:

+I would be horrified if someone saw me folding, and perhaps because of
+the notoriety of Ng folding in prison, said to me something like "Oh you
+are doing origami like that serial killer." Sort of associating me with
+him, through the folding.
+
+That is repugnant.

I believe that you feel that way, but I don't understand it.

I don't understand it on many levels.
Why origami, and not "Oh, you breathe air just like... or Oh, you drink
water just like... or Oh, you do cross-stitch just like... or Oh, you
like the same music as.... or Oh, you use a spoon just like..."

Not only has Ng commited heinous crimes, but now, from his jail cell,
he can reach out with whatever activities he does (yoga, origami,
painting, chess, ...) take the joy of that activity away from countless
people who(m?) he doesn't know and even worse who might not know him?
Why would anyone give anyone else such power? This I do not understand.

But I believe that people feel that way. And while I don't understand
why, that it happens make me very sad. Esp. because noone needs to feel
that way. With the same idea, but in a different context, there are
"take back the night" activities, in which neighbors take back control
of their neighborhoods from criminals. I don't know how successful
those activities are, but they point out that something was given up,
voluntarily, and had to be taken back.

I hope we never have to have a "take back origami" activities, because
I hope we never let it be taken away.

-D'gou





From: Alan Shutko <ats@ACM.ORG>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 18:24
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM> writes:

> Dee Lynch indited:
>
> +I would be horrified if someone saw me folding, and perhaps because of
> +the notoriety of Ng folding in prison, said to me something like "Oh you
> +are doing origami like that serial killer." Sort of associating me with
> +him, through the folding.

> I don't understand it on many levels.
> Why origami, and not "Oh, you breathe air just like... or Oh, you drink
> water just like... or Oh, you do cross-stitch just like... or Oh, you
> like the same music as.... or Oh, you use a spoon just like..."

I've seen this with a few other hobbies, so maybe I can explain.  This
feeling generally comes up with hobbies which are not very mainstream,
and which aren't well-understood by the general population.  If a
well-publicized violent criminal is associated with such a hobby, the
public may form a connection between said criminal and other people
who enjoy the hobby (since they don't understand the appeal of the
hobby anyway).

You can see good examples of the harassment that can happen in cases
like this if you look back at the "Dungeons & Dragons is satanic"
crazes or, more recently, the restrictions placed on high-school
students who wore trenchcoats or used the Internet after the Columbine
shootings.  Individuals are smart, but people as a group tend to be
rather paranoid about things they don't understand.

That said, I don't think origami is the type of hobby which people can
confuse in this way.  I can't see any way that one could use origami
for evil, and I don't know how it could be anything but a wholesome
and healthy activity.

--
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - In a variety of flavors!
Paralysis through analysis.





From: Kelly Dunn <Kellydunn@AOL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 18:34
Subject: Dragons

Hi,
Has anyone else seen the January Nippon Origami Association magazine no.293
for this January?  It's filled with dragons!! So, I think it's neat!
I really like the Eastern dragon-shaped chopsticks' stand by Mr. Toshio Gohara
that can be folded out of the paper that wooden chopsticks come wrapped in.
It's simple and cute.
Also, I like the dragon by Ms. Taiko Niwa. It's very cute!!
I hope this hasn't been discussed already. I'm excited about the PCOC
conference
through OUSA and the dragon contest. I'm wondering how many folders are
thinking
of it. I know shipping the date for it is Feb. 1st. I'm looking forward to
seeing
all the dragons! :)
I think it would be neat to have one that is folded so it breathes fire. I
haven't
seen this yet. Mine won't have fire though because I can't figure that out.

Best wishes and dragon dreams,
Kelly





From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 18:57
Subject: Re: Annex to: Serial Killer Ng

there is a japanese movie where the hit man makes a crane,(sign of peace),
every time he kills someone!
It has probably been log as an Origami sighting.
              Mike
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From: Dr Stephen O'Hanlon <fishgoth@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 18:58
Subject: Re: Website update

Apologies to all asking for the link as I did not include it in my last
mail,

www.geocities.com/athens/academy/4800

or

www.geocities.com/paperfolder.geo

Enjoy!

Stephen
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From: Dr Stephen O'Hanlon <fishgoth@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 19:20
Subject: Serial Killer Ng-WHOAAAAH!!!

Ok, alright...I'm in the UK and I can feel all the tension from over the
Atlantic. Everyone calm down. Its going to be alright.

Yes, it really is.

Ng might have been a horrible person, thats why he was thrown in a dungeon.
Let's hope he realises just what he has done. The courts have already judged
him, God will judge him later. He's still a person in his own right however,
and if someone wants to correspond with him, then thats their choice. My mum
used to organise music for the Catholic masses at Reading prison down the
road, and got to know some prisoners who were convicted of rather horrible
crimes. Communication with others is probably the best way to get people to
understand and come to terms with the nature of their crime.

If someone want's to sell 'Serial killer origami' then they either belong in
a similar dungeon, or should be treated with the same sympathy as those who
sell videos of alien autopsies, etc.

As for origami association, dont worry about it. My sister-in-law shares
Adolph Hitlers birthday, and jokes it off if anyone brings this fact up. I
dont know how many Blade Runner references I get commented upon when I fold
a little unicorn out of a silver sweet wrapper (candy wrapper).

There...still ok? Not trembling with rage? Calm down...have a beer or a
decaf. Then fold something. Something nice and happy.

And lets get back to arguing about modules, kawazaki roses and all the other
stuff my mailbox receives daily.

Enough already?

Stephen

PS: Just suppose you were a serial killer in a dreadful b-movie nobody gets
hurt kind of way, what origami would you leave at the scene of the crime?
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From: David Taylor <dataylor@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 19:28
Subject: NO: The criminals & the forgiven

Mike brought up...
>would you feel the same if you were in church and the person associated you
>with a killer who attends church?

...which is the cue for what has been on my mind throughout this
discussion.  Naturally, the gov't must prevent & punish crime as well as it
can.
On the other hand, felonies--& also the sins we're more comfortable
with--qualify a person for God's mercy. As Jesus said, "It is not the
healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the
righteous, but sinners to repentance." Of course, not all of us agree about
forgiving a criminal, but those of us who have experienced forgiveness for
our own sins are required to have compassion on our neighbor.
--Elise

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
(Jim Elliot)





From: Dorothy Engleman <FoldingCA@WEBTV.NET>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 20:21
Subject: Re: Serial Killer Ng

Mike Kanarek wrote:

"Next you will want to ban people like myself, who have been
incarcerated, from being on the list."

Mike, if you're addressing me, your statement is a reductio ad absurdum.
The list is - and should be - open to everyone, including Charles Ng, if
prison regs permit.

It's good to hear that your rehabilitaiton began when you learned to
fold. I would like to see all prisons utilize origami in the
rehabilitaion of their inmates.

Julia Palffy wrote:

"If a serial killer wants to do origami, why not? At least that is a
harmless activity.
If there are people who have the kindness to contribute to his folding,
I think that's fine of them.

I don't know what turns some people into monsters and criminals, but I
do know true kindness can sometimes help people to become better."

Julia, I have worked for peace and justice and human rights, including
prisoners' rights, and I oppose the death penalty. Charles Ng is
entitled to basic human rights and if he wants to do origami, let him.

However, I'd like to see people reach out in kindness to the families
and friends of Ng's victims (and other victims of violence), who will be
in pain and sorrow for the rest of their lives because of monsters like
Ng.  Surely they could be comforted by origami.  That, to me, would
represent a small measure of justice.

Dorothy





From: Terry Rioux <trioux@WHOI.EDU>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 20:25
Subject: ORU #10 Model Help

Would some kind Japanese speaking person translate the
information/instructions for the intriguing modular model in ORU #10
(Autumn 1995) beginning on page 127?

Thanks,

Terry Rioux





From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 20:48
Subject: Re: Serial Killer Ng

        " An iterative process is an efficient mechanism for generating form,
creating elaborate structures with a minimum expenditure of energy and
information. The results, not surprisingly, are structures that appear
self-similar."

        When reading the above from Peter Engel's, Origami from Angelfish to
     Zen; I
was so taken aback that I had to make sure that I was reading a book on
Origami. [Origami is the ancient art of paper folding]
        Being in jail and looking for things with which to keep busy I
     remembered a
friends' child fascinating me as she folded a crane in front of my eyes and
presented it to me. I thought I might enjoy this 'paper folding'.I asked a
friend if he would find a book on the subject.I am not sure if the friend
had 'chosen' this book for me or merely plucked it from the shelve. At this
point it does not matter, for it has become one of my favorite reads.
        In a recent letter, I wrote the following; " This time, [in jail], has
given me the space to examine my past and to bring a richness into my life
that was not there before. For with all my education and money I have never
set aside the time to review my life or to rethink the 'Why' for which I am
here.
        While reading Mr. Engle's book I came to feel that my life was akin to
     an
origami model. I had a multitude of folds, [experiences], which when viewed
independently looked like utter chaos. But when assembled took shape,
[character].
        Mr. Engle instructs the folder to examine their origami by; "unfolding
     the
paper"; in order to see from what angles it came into being. As he states;
"what seems to be a bunch of unrelated lines that seem to have no
relationship to one another, are in fact very much related."
        Now having taken the time to do this introspection of myself I feel
     that I
am in a better position to go forward with this process we call life.Jail
has been the iterative process needed for me to grow.
The above was part of a 'jailhouse' newsletter, written back in April of 96.
While in prison Origami allowed me to pass many an hour without care. I was
also able to witness the therapeutic affect on myself and my fellow inmates.
        When I started to fold I was at the table by myself. A few days latter I
was joined by another inmate. That night he too read Mr. Engle s book and
the next day we formed the group 'ITERATION'
        As the days passed other inmates would stop. Some would look, others
     made
comments, or gave compliments and some joined us.
        Nicknames are part of prison life and as our group grew we choose names
such as: 'The Crease', 'The Bend', 'The Fold', just to mention a few.
        Through a friend we were able to get a copy of ORIGAMI CLASSROOM by
     Nakano;
which came with our first Origami paper. The wife of another inmate sent us
books by Neale and hull and one by Rosado, we were on our way.
        Because of the environment in which we were folding most chose folds,
     which
could be mailed and not damaged. Some of these were: Kissing Lips, Sitting
Puppy, Somersaulting Frog, and Lilly s just to mention a few.
        Next a letter was sent to Dover Press requesting a catalogue and
     informing
them that we were not able to shop like most people. They not only sent the
catalogue but also were nice enough to include a few books along with some
7" and 9" paper.
        My birthday came at about the same time and a friend surprised me with a
copy of The Complete Origami by kenneway.
        Now we were in full swing. We had 6 books and 9 full time folders every
night after dinner. We also had those who had no desire to fold but were
able to help us out when the group was stuck trying to figure out a new
fold.
        Non- folders started to offer us cigarettes for our work, [cigarettes
     are
money in jail]. The cigarettes were traded to other inmates whose families
would shop for paper and bring it in on their visits. The paper was shared
with those inmates who had a strong desire to fold and no funds. We were
basically, 'not-for-profit'.
        Guards were also attracted to our table. Some admitted to folding in the
past. Others were amazed that we could sit and work together without
incident. One even took the address of Origami USA and got his mother a
membership!
        We knew we had finally arrived when guards allowed us to 'pass' our
     models
to friends and family at visits.
        What I was able to be part of and witness to was the process of one
     human
being helping another. Old, young, black, white, Muslim, and Jew all working
side by side. I saw the return of social skills and the building of
self-esteem. I watched as myself and others found a way in which to channel
aggression and relieve stress.
        Slowly as we felt at ease with ourselves and compatible with each other
     our
group took on a duel purpose. We were not only doing Origami but also having
a 'rap' session. Many bridges were crossed that may have never come to light
had it not been for our common cause...Origami.
        One session was most reveling. Each member was asked to design or fold a
model of something in his or her life and to present it the next day; with a
description of why it was important. Needless to say the results were
astounding.
        I had written to Origami USA some time earlier and not received a
     response,
but then it came. There was a nice cover letter, paper, a copy of Models by
Members, and some copies of the newsletter. Much of what we read we were
already experiencing.
        I have left jail and know that what I and the other inmates shared will
stay with me for life.

        The above article has been published in BOS, the journal of the British
Origami Society and OUSA the journal of the Origami Society of America.

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From: Christopher Holt <Ella-mae@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 21:04
Subject: Re: Serial Killer Ng-WHOAAAAH!!!

The fact of the matter is that society has always had monsters. One way to
deal with them is to ignore them and hope the system deals with them in such
a way that you don't have to. Another is to vilify and hate them. For me all
life is as sacred as sacred can get for an atheist (which is actually more
profound than many theists realize or even feel in their own right); for
that reason I can neither condone societal killing in the form of the death
penalty, nor what Ng did--each is equally wrong. With respect for life as a
foundation, then, my only option left is to respect whatever there is within
each person that is affirmational of those values, and try to reason and
behave in such a way as to reinforce them within every person I come into
contact with. Each individual presents something of value, if only because
of the fact that they exist. To close one's eyes is unhelpful, but to abhore
and scorn is worse in that it fosters un-life-affirming values within
ourselves. If Ng folds, use that to show him the way that simple actions can
breathe life into the inanimate as a folded piece of paper can become a
dolphin or a mouse. If you must hate him, realize that only hatred and
insanity (in which I include greed) lead to his kind of actions. Hope
everyone is surviving the discussion okay so far. All the best - c!!!

=================================

      With clear melting dew
      I'd try to wash away the dust
      of this floating world
                                  --Basho





From: BoyohBoy17@AOL.COM
Date: 16 Jan 2000 21:06
Subject: Re- Serial Killer Ng

In a message dated 1/16/2000 5:55:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dwp@TRANSARC.COM writes:

<< Why origami, and not "Oh, you breathe air just like... or Oh, you drink
 water just like... or Oh, you do cross-stitch just like... or Oh, you
 like the same music as.... or Oh, you use a spoon just like..." >>

    Because Origami is (unfortunately) not as common or as well known as the
other things that you mention.  If the first time that a person heard of
origami it was linked to Ng, he/she would probably associate the next person
that he saw folding to Ng.  I would prefer not to be associated with a serial
killer; however, I believe that origami can be used to rehabilitate.

Stuart





From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 21:30
Subject: Re: Re- Serial Killer Ng

i would like to know how many of you holier than tho people out there have
donated your time teaching Origami in your communities to others.
Places like Hospice, Children at risk groups, your library, brest cancer
surviors, wellness centers, drug rehabilatation centers,and for the workers
of the handicaped.
Those are some of the places I have shared my love of Origami sience I
returned home from JAIL!
I don't mean to toot my own horn but I have to remind myself of the power of
the paper!
A little 12 step program never hurt either.

                  Mike
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From: I M <eldo1960@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 21:50
Subject: Re: NO: The criminals & the forgiven

Well, friends, our former guest of the penal system is having a field day,
isn't he?  I've never known of anyone so proud of such a background and so
eager to publicise it.

In reply to a couple of posts on the topic of forgiveness:  One member
boasted that he forgives the murderer at issue here.  That's quite
magnanimous, except it's not his place to forgive.  The aggrieved are the
victims, in no position to forgive, and the families who are affected, who
may choose to do do.  HOWEVER, before forgiveness is granted, one would
expect contrition and a request for such from the perpetrator.  Christ
called all sinners to REPENTANCE.  Forgiveness logically follows repentance.

When Bill Clinton disgraced the office of President, many liberals and
clergy types offered their forgiveness right off.  This in the face of the
fact that not only did Clinton not ask for forgiveness, he steadfastly told
lie after lie and has never made a coherent confession, much less shown
contrition.  This is foolishness, not mercy.
IM
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From: Mike Kanarek <kanarekorigami@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 22:15
Subject: Re: NO: The criminals & the forgiven

Beside being rehabilated in jail i also became a Christian!
I do make a point to try and show to what I and ex-offenders are doing in
our communities.
There are more of us that are in your everyday lives makng a difference than
one might think.
I am currently a part of a movement trying to get ex-offenders "out' so that
the shame of incarceration can be lifted. Many people served time for things
that today are not even crimes.
And while I'm on the subject Christ was a ex-offender and the man crucified
next to him was DITMAS a criminal. Ditmas house was the subject of a old B&W
movie called the JUNKIE priest about, what else the first Christian drug
rehab!
                      Mike, the proud Ex-offender
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From: Ross Cooper <Zxenor@AOL.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 23:28
Subject: Serial Killers, Morals, and Religion

ENOUGH!!!!
this is PITIFUL!!!
a few people have said this already but I hope that you will listen to me...

i opened my mail today to find 52 e-mails from this list 90% of them about
serial killers, morals, and religion.  I really could care less.  I want to
hear about ORIGAMI, that's why i joined this list.  So STOP IT!!! Send
private e-mails to others if you want, or you can even start a new mailing
list...

PLEASE stop...this is almost as bad as spam...

-Ross





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: 16 Jan 2000 23:45
Subject: Re: Dragons

Kelly Dunn indited:

+Has anyone else seen the January Nippon Origami Association magazine no.293
+for this January?  It's filled with dragons!! So, I think it's neat!

Yes, it is!

+I really like the Eastern dragon-shaped chopsticks' stand by Mr. Toshio Gohara
+that can be folded out of the paper that wooden chopsticks come wrapped in.
+It's simple and cute.

I hadn't looked at that too closely, as I don't often fold chopsticks
wrappers, but any thin rectangle would work (probably including a narrowed
$bill, or other currency).

+Also, I like the dragon by Ms. Taiko Niwa. It's very cute!!

Agreed. I taught that model yesterday at the beginners class of Origami
Club of Pittsburgh meeting. The assymetric inside reverse folds were tough,
but everyone made it through.

The Eastern Dragon by Hiroshi Kumasaka is very nice too, though more
involved.

+I think it would be neat to have one that is folded so it breathes
+fire. I haven't seen this yet. Mine won't have fire though because I
+can't figure that out.

Brill's Dragon breathes a jet of fire. You can find it in his book
Brilliant Origami and you can find a picture of it on the cover of the
book, so if your favorite online bookseller has pictures of their
merchandise, you needn't even leave your computer to see it!

-D'gou





From: Tiffany Tam <origamiwing@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 00:09
Subject: Re: Dragons

I received the notice about the dragon cntext awhile ago and have been
trying to create a dragon of my own to enter the contest, but i can't make
any good ones.  Can i search for a dragon model and fold one to enter the
contest?

>From: Kelly Dunn <Kellydunn@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Dragons
>Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:23:11 EST
>
>Hi,
>Has anyone else seen the January Nippon Origami Association magazine no.293
>for this January?  It's filled with dragons!! So, I think it's neat!
>I really like the Eastern dragon-shaped chopsticks' stand by Mr. Toshio
>Gohara
>that can be folded out of the paper that wooden chopsticks come wrapped in.
>It's simple and cute.
>Also, I like the dragon by Ms. Taiko Niwa. It's very cute!!
>I hope this hasn't been discussed already. I'm excited about the PCOC
>conference
>through OUSA and the dragon contest. I'm wondering how many folders are
>thinking
>of it. I know shipping the date for it is Feb. 1st. I'm looking forward to
>seeing
>all the dragons! :)
>I think it would be neat to have one that is folded so it breathes fire. I
>haven't
>seen this yet. Mine won't have fire though because I can't figure that out.
>
>Best wishes and dragon dreams,
>Kelly

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From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 01:22
Subject: Re: Dragons

Hi Tiffany!  According to the rules you can.  What do you plan on folding?
One of Montroll's, or Joseph Wu's Eastern Dragon or a dragon in one of the
convention books or magazines?  I myself have created a couple of dragons
that look pathetic.  Has Kawahata created any dragons?  Happy folding:)

David





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 01:22
Subject: Re: Serial Killers, Morals, and Religion

You have a point Ross.  But the only thing that I think I should mention is
that why haven't you silly people labelled these threads with NO since they
don't really involve origami?

David





From: Mark Plant <mplant@UK.ORACLE.COM>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 04:50
Subject: Re: Folding on the go

I always try to have some paper squares about my person, and do quite a
bit of folding whilst commuting.

2 inch squares sound a bit small to me. I cut squares which just fit into
the inside pocket of my coat or jacket (3-4 inches, I guess). With that
size, no 'tools' are needed, other than my hands, to produce fairly
challenging models. I use kami, foil, and kraftskin in various colours.

What do I fold ? Well, I have a number of favourites (Rohm's elephant,
Crawford's parrot and swan, Lang's insects, Kawasaki's rose, Montroll's
animals, as well as the 'quick and easy' flapping birds of various types
and other action models). I am adding to my repertoire all the time, and
like to test myself by folding the latest model I have learned without
looking at the instructions.

I find that mostly people just ignore me, but occassionally my folding
attracts an audience. Generally, people are delighted when presented with
the final model. Occassionally meet someone who 'just doesn't get it', and
on one occassion the model was just torn up and thrown away ! Takes all
sorts, I guess !

Regards

Mark

Alan Shutko wrote:

> [Delurking, hi!]
>
> Given the amount of time I spend in lines of various sorts, for
> airplanes, license renewal, you name it, I've been fairly interested
> in portable origami as a way to pass the time.  My kit for many years
> has consisted of a pack of 2" origami paper and a mechanical pencil.
> I can use the tip of the pencil to get inside folds I can't put my
> fingers in and the metal clip makes creases as sharp as possible.
> Now, I can't really make anything complex out of 2" paper, but I can
> work towards my thousand cranes and leave other classic models
> wherever I go.
>
> This is a great way to settle down loud and annoying children when
> waiting as well, because they settle down quite quickly when handed a
> frog the the size of their thumb.  (Side question: does folding and
> giving away a thousand cranes count too?  It's certainly more fun that
> way!)
>
> I just picked up something which should make portable origami more
> fun, a Leatherman Micra.  It's got a small knife, scissors, tweezers,
> and a small screwdriver to fit inside tight folds, and fits on my
> keychain.  I was wondering what kind of kits or stories other folders
> have.
>
> --
> Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - In a variety of flavors!
> A child of five could understand this!  Fetch me a child of five.





From: Anine Cleve <anine21@USA.NET>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 09:05
Subject: Tetrahedron?

Hej!

I'm looking for the diagrams of a model I'm not sure about the name of, but it
might be something with Tetrahedron. I think it was discussed a lot here a
while back. It's a unit thing that looks like hollow squares locked into
eachother. Hope you understand what I mean.
Hope somebody can give me an URL to the diagrams!
Best wishes,
               Anine

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From: Anine Cleve <anine21@USA.NET>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 09:17
Subject: 5 intersecting tetrahedra

Hi again!

I have now found out that the model is called "5 intersecting tetrahedra". Can
anyone tell me where I can find the diagrams for it on the net?
Thanks in advance!
                     Anine

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From: Allan findlay <a_findlay@EXCHANGE.CREATIONS.CO.UK>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 09:22
Subject: Re: 5 intersecting tetrahedra

Here it is:-

http://chasm.merrimack.edu/~thull/fit.html

--------------------------
        Allan           (a_findlay@exchange.creations.co.uk)

-----Original Message-----
From: Anine Cleve [mailto:anine21@USA.NET]
Sent: 17 January 2000 15:17
To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: 5 intersecting tetrahedra

Hi again!

I have now found out that the model is called "5 intersecting tetrahedra".
Can
anyone tell me where I can find the diagrams for it on the net?
Thanks in advance!
                     Anine

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From: "JacAlArt ." <jacalart@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 17 Jan 2000 10:09
Subject: Ng, Origami, and you wacky people

This has nothing to do with origami. It has to do with the rights/treatment
of a monster. I bet most of you don't even know the morbid details of Ng's
actions. (Actually, Ng and his accomplice -- who committed suicide upon
capture.) This 'man' should not have the right to fold. He should not have a
radio. A TV. A book. A life. He should be destroyed. I resent having my tax
dollars paying for his room and board. Educate yourselves on what he did.
The sheer terror he caused. Not to mention the fact that he has successfully
manipulated the court system -- causing mistrial after mistrial. He's
laughing. To put it bluntly -- it is repugnant that this monster is still
alive, let alone has any rights or comforts at all.
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