




From: Xandra Leong <Xandra@SOCAL.RR.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 14:58
Subject: Re: NO - ILL & Disappearing Books

I don't know but I hear that sometimes some people rather pay the fine of
the book rather than by new one. Because sometimes the fine is cheaper than
go get new one much much more and if it is in a good condition why not?
People will just say they lost it when they really didn't..
Xandra

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elaina Quackenbush" <elaina_quackenbush@NETZERO.NET>
To: <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: NO - ILL & Disappearing Books

Hi, here no.  I just live in a really small town, that fortunately all the
library members are fairly
honest.

The section that loans out book does so as a courtesy thing, regular books
can be checked
out 6 at a time.

El

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From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:06
Subject: Re: (Long) Trading Off

Dave Mitchell wrote:
>> I understand that to many creators origami design is primarily a
>> puzzle-solving activity. What I've been trying to highlight is that this
>> isn't the only approach - or even necessarily the most productive one. You
>> don't need to begin with an idea of what the finished fold should be in
>> order to design. You can equally well begin with an interesting
>> configuration of folds and see how they can be developed.

>> I see no reason why the two approaches can't be meshed but unfortunately the
>> divide between them seems to be widening rather than coming together. This
>> growing dichotomy concerns me. Origami seems to be in danger of becoming two
>> entirely unrelated crafts/arts which just both happen to involve folding
>> paper.

Ronald Koh wrote:
>This concern may be quite unfounded. It would be nice to have the
>comments of other creative folders on this list.

Dave, this dichotomy might exist for some creative folders, but certainly
not for all. The reason for my strong disagreement with your position
(which, incidentally, seems to have shifted as discussion has progressed) on
this issue is your rather dogmatic stance on something that is clearly not
black & white. I think that there are more than the two approaches that you
mention (see J.C. Nolan's book, "Creating Origami", for an overview of some
of the other approaches), and that many times these approaches are
intertwined. Let's take a look at some techniques, attitudes, and comments
of some so-called "technical folders".

1. Marc Kirschenbaum recently revealed that he uses crumpling to find
overall forms before working out final folding sequences.

2. Robert Lang talks about using Treemaker to find proportions and bases for
certain designs, but maintains that this is just a tool which is unable to
develop aesthetically pleasing forms without human intervention.

3. KAWAHATA Fumiaki, when asked what is specific proportion he so
painstakingly finds at the beginning of his new pteranodon model, says that
the does not know what the proportion is, only that it works.

4. While visiting with the Origami Tanteidan in Japan, I watched many of
them "doodle". Indeed, it appears that many creative folders doodle.
Whenever I am asked how to start creating, I always tell people to fold
other people's models and to doodle. It is the best way to learn what the
paper can and cannot do. As Charles Eames once said, "design is about
constraints". We must learn the constraints imposed upon us by the paper (or
perhaps to choose a more restrictive set of constraints based on that)
before we can start to design.

This is just a small sample, of course. I'd love to know more about how
people such as David Brill & Herman van Goubergen go about design. Perhaps I
should mention myself, too. While I can understand the various technical,
problem-solving approaches to creative folding, I cannot consciously use
them. Maybe I'm working things out subconsciously...I'll never know. On a
conscious level, I work at what I consider to be an intuitive level. When I
pick a subject (or, sometimes, when a subject picks me), the design appears
in my mind. It might take some time to work out the details, but usually
that first intuitive design provides the base that I need along with a
number of details. It wasn't always this way, but I seem to have grown more
familiar with the possibilities within the constraints over time. So...is
that problem-solving or is that following an interesting sequence of folds.
I'd say that it's something of both, and more.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:14
Subject: Re: [NO] Pedants' corner {Re: Bahamut}

At 09:11 99/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
>>In D&D terms (Dungeons and Dragons)bahamut is the "god" of all good
>>dragons.
>>Where they got this from, I can't begin to figure out. He is opposed by
>>Tiamat, the three headed "goddess" of evil dragons.
>>
>>Gillian
>
>I'll don my anorak and relive my teenage years...Tiamat was a _five_ headed
>dragon and was (advanced) Dungeons and Dragons version of Cerberus, in that
>she stood at the first layer of hell. Bahamut comes up in lots of other
>'fantasy' inspired themes, such as Final Fantasy VII, a superb playstation
>game, where several of the monsters that can be summoned for aid are called
>Bahamut.

Sort of. AD&D sported a number of netherworlds ("outer planes") drawn from,
but not identical to, the netherworlds of world mythology. In AD&D, Tiamat
did guard the first layer of Hell, and did have five heads. But Cerberus
also existed, guarding the first layer of Hades.

Regarding Tiamat, she was drawn from Babylonian mythology. She was the
she-dragon of chaos, representing the salt-water ocean. After her defeat by
the god Marduk, her body was used to form the universe. In the original
myth, she only had one head...

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca





From: John Hancock <jwhancock34@YAHOO.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:18
Subject: Re: NO - ILL & Disappearing Books

That was the case where I went to university. The
maximum fine for a lost book was $40. I have a
disgusting honest streak a mile wide, so I never took
advantage of this, but it always seemed like a strange
library policy that would allow users to borrow books
with the explicit understanding that they would not be
required to pay the full replacement value in the
event of loss.

At my graduate school, the rule was that the fine for
a lost volume was equal to the replacement cost of the
book. As for theft, that library was so vindictive
that even God couldn't help you if you got caught
stealing from them.

Later,

John

--- Xandra Leong <Xandra@SOCAL.RR.COM> wrote:
> I don't know but I hear that sometimes some people
> rather pay the fine of
> the book rather than by new one. Because sometimes
> the fine is cheaper than
> go get new one much much more and if it is in a good
> condition why not?
> People will just say they lost it when they really
> didn't..
> Xandra

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com





From: Dorothy Engleman <FoldingCA@WEBTV.NET>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:22
Subject: [NO] Library Suggestions

As library patrons, we can creatively approach some of the problems
listed.

1. We can donate origami books to our libraries, individually or through
our origami clubs.

2.  We can submit recommendations of origami books that we would like
our libraries to purchase.

3. We can volunteer to teach origami, curate an origami exhibition and
create origami holiday trees at our libraries.  These origami-related
activities may encourage librarians to purchase more origami titles.

Dorothy





From: James Storrs <italic@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:39
Subject: Uncontrollable library losses

Friederike,
If the patrons at your library are that rapacious when they can get to
library materials, what would keep them from making off with the books or
tearing or cutting out what they want once the librarian brought them up
from the bowels of the archives?
James
===============

they are thinking now to convert the lending dirct from the shelf into
lending out of
> catalogue. You have to choose your books out of a catalogue and the
librarians get them for from
> the archives. I hate that.





From: Leigh Halford <Leigh451@AOL.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 16:23
Subject: Cutting paper

A few weeks ago I asked how to cut paper and it seems to have generated quite
a thread. I have had a real stroke of luck that has solved it for me!!! In an
old cupboard at the back of my lab I found a metal roofers square. It is a L
shaped piece of steel about 70cm, by 50 cm, with a complete scale. I have
checked the angle and it is spot on!! Also anybody in the uk rotary paper
trimmers are dead cheap at staples!!
Leigh
http://hometown.aol.com/origami451





From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@FANTASYFARM.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:02
Subject: Cutting large squares

What I do is a little different from what folks have said so far: given a
large sheet of paper with NO interesting/useful edges or angles:

Figure out about where you want the center of your square to be.  Fold
the paper through that point [makes no real difference exactly where you
do this, just "in the middle"].  Then fold it in half again *along* the
fold you just made [again, putting the fold near where you want the
center of the resulting square to be].

Where these two folds intersect [which ought to be someplace around where
you wanted the center of the square to be], you have a nice right angle:
fold that in half, bringing the two folded edges together.

Now you have a 45degree 'wedge'.  If you cut it perpendicular to the
folded edge, *anyplace* you cut will get you a square, so you can just
slide the 'point' along the spine of your cutter until you have a square
of whatever size you please.

What's neat about this is that the square you get is doubled, and so you
can make a square with an edge _twice_ what your paper cutter can manage.
 What's not neat about it is that you end up with the diagonals and faces
folded

 /Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--





From: BoyohBoy17@AOL.COM
Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:15
Subject: Re: Library security systems

That was assuming that your library was not more than two stories tall.





From: BoyohBoy17@AOL.COM
Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:23
Subject: Re: Library security systems

How do you think they filmed Frankenstein?

Stuart





From: BoyohBoy17@AOL.COM
Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:23
Subject: Re: How weird is that?  Double

I might have had it happen to me once

Stuart





From: Bob Shuster <Bob@HOTAPPLESPIDER.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:29
Subject: Re: paper cutters

With all this talk about paper cutters lately, I have one burning
question - where the heck can you get a 24" Fiskars rotary paper
cutter?!?  Yes, I too have been frustrated by other paper cutting
methods, and I think a rotary cutter attached to a self-healing mat
may be the way to go - for me at least.  I've found the 12" variety
in any number of places, but can't find a source, local or Internet,
that sells the 24"-er.  I'd entertain suggestions for other brands as
well, but my research indicates that Fiskars would be much less
expensive.

Has anyone else used a Fiskars rotary trimmer?  How do you like it?
- Bob Shuster

  [ Hot Apple Spider Design - graphic & website design/consulting ]
  [     email: Bob@HotAppleSpider.com     phone: 215-402-0751     ]
  [         All work proudly done on Macintosh computers!         ]
  [           website: http://www.HotAppleSpider.com/             ]





From: Javier Cubero <JCubero@XL.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:29
Subject: Re: Library security systems

As an engineer, I also enjoy figuring out "how do they do that" at
libraries and other places.  I have to say that sometimes the ease of
stealing comes from unimaginative placing of the magnetic strips.  At
the USF (University of South Florida) library, it was common knowledge
that the magnetic strip was ALWAYS placed behind the checkout card
holder.  Any thief had but to remove that, and voila!  Just to make it
easier on thieves, the second floor periodicals section had a separate
gate - you weren't allowed to remove periodicals from the floor.  But,
people were always taking unchecked books through and setting off the
alarm.  Thieves commonly would "clean" a book, then test it on the
second floor gate. I know because my wife used to work there.
Magnetic strips are just one tool.  Proper security is harder to achieve
than just slapping on a strip.  You have to have a whole procedure that
includes not giving people the opportunity to defeat your system.  Sad,
but true.
Personally, I was more offended by the "Holy Roller" censor group at USF
that decided to go through the entire photography section, and remove
with a razor any photograph that contained anything they deemed lewd or
immoral.  And came back every once in a while to gut new books.  At
least when a thief steals a book, SOMEbody is appreciating it!

Javier

> -----Original Message-----
> From: david whitbeck [mailto:dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU]
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 1:47 AM
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [NO] Re: Library security systems
>
>
> Isn't it true that some books, like library books and text books have
> magnetic strips in them.  If it's easy to remove the strip
> then the book
> can be safely stolen.  But how easy is that?  There has to be a quick,
> cheap way to demagnetize the dang thing.  Not that I'm
> planning on stealing
> any library books just curious how those wicked, evil theives do it.
>
> David





From: Javier Cubero <JCubero@XL.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:50
Subject: Re: Cutting paper

As a woodworker, I can attest that those L shaped rulers (called framing
squares, because they're used in building house frames) are very handy.
However, check the angle carefully, because the cheaper ones are rarely
truly 90 degrees.  There is a simple fix to that, well known in
woodworking circles.
You can use an awl punch and a hammer to "true up" framing squares.
Where the two legs of the "L" meet, score a line from corner to corner.
If your square is >90 degrees, place the punch along that line towards
the outside edge.  Give it a solid whack with the hammer. If <90
degrees, give it a whack near the inside corner.  This will adjust the
angle slightly.
It's fairly intuitive, the metal will spread slightly where you whacked
it.

+---------------------)
|\                    (         Whack point 'a' to make angle smaller.
| a                   )       Whack point 'b' to make angle larger.
|  \                  (
|   \                 )
|    b                )
|     \               (
|      +--------------)
|      |
|      |
|      |

Javier Cubero
jcubero@xl.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leigh Halford [mailto:Leigh451@AOL.COM]
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 4:23 PM
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Cutting paper
>
>
> A few weeks ago I asked how to cut paper and it seems to have
> generated quite
> a thread. I have had a real stroke of luck that has solved it
> for me!!! In an
> old cupboard at the back of my lab I found a metal roofers
> square. It is a L
> shaped piece of steel about 70cm, by 50 cm, with a complete
> scale. I have
> checked the angle and it is spot on!! Also anybody in the uk
> rotary paper
> trimmers are dead cheap at staples!!
> Leigh
> http://hometown.aol.com/origami451





From: Elaina Quackenbush <elaina_quackenbush@NETZERO.NET>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 18:51
Subject: Re: paper cutters

I use the 12 in Friskars rotary cutter, and other than the fact that one side
     (which luckily is the
opposite one for my left handed-ness), it works well and leaves a clean cut.  I
     know office
depot (at least in Dallas area) can order it, but alas, at the moment it is an
     expense I can ill
afford.

El

Download the Lycos Browser at http://lycos.neoplanet.com

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html





From: "Chamberlain, Clare" <Clare.Chamberlain@HEALTH.WA.GOV.AU>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 19:25
Subject: creasing faces on money

Someone raised the fun of folding tiny creases across the eyes of faces on
paper money....I was taught this at a BOS meeting, but when I demonstrated
it in Japan, there were gasps of horror.  My poor Japanese meant I still
don't know whether I was not to deface the currency or a specific person!!
Of course, in this great land of Oz, where the dollar is worth little, we
have plastic notes which are a bugger to fold, but do survive the washing
machine.  Maybe if we vote to become a republic this weekend, we won't have
the queen's face on our money anyway.....

As for throwing books out of library windows, if the book were big enough,
and the window high enough, you could scrape the poor soul off the pavement,
cut him/her into a square (40*40 comes to mind) and.........(Maybe fold a
model of Dirty Harry?)

Clare, from the West, where there are no origami books in the library...
maybe the kangaroos smuggle them out in their pouches!





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 20:30
Subject: [NO] Re: Library security systems

Now I have heard two university libraries have been cited with stolen books
and worse this is astonishing to me.  Such a thing wouldn't happen at any
of the five libraries at UCD and I can't imagine students paying to go to a
university slash and steal books that them and everyone they know are
shelling out hard cash to support.  Is this true?

David





From: Eric Andersen <ema@NETSPACE.ORG>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 20:42
Subject: Re: [Re: Cutting large paper, etc.]

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Lisa Hodsdon wrote:

>Oops. Didn't think of that. If you're in the US, I know you can get an
>18 in. cork-backed ruler at Staples. Order on-line?

Well, Staples has their entire product line available at their site,
www.staples.com. And it's free delivery after $50 (although I doubt the
ruler would be that much :-)

-Eric :-P
origami@netspace.org

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
\   Eric Andersen                                       /
/    Mathematics, Music             ~  ~ __o            \
\     and Origami                 ~  ~ _-\<'_           /
/      ema@netspace.org        ~    ~ (_)/ (_)          \
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
         *** http://www.paperfolding.com ***





From: James Storrs <italic@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 21:13
Subject: unreal!

> Now I have heard two university libraries have been cited with stolen
books
> and worse this is astonishing to me.  Such a thing wouldn't happen at any
> of the five libraries at UCD and I can't imagine students paying to go to
a
> university slash and steal books that them and everyone they know are
> shelling out hard cash to support.  Is this true?
>
> David
===================
I too am astounded at some of these stories.  My favorite so far is about
chaining books to the shelves.  I'm not saying it didn't happen or isn't
happening, but I keep thinking about how awkward it is for the patrons to be
standing up perusing the volumes with the chains dangling.  I also worry
about how they go about checking one out.  Does the librarian come over with
a giant keychain and fumble for the key to fit the lock for that particular
book?  Then what keeps the patron from cutting the book up while it's in his
care?  It boggles my mind.
James





From: Chris Hundley <chris@PREMIEREPAGES.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 21:32
Subject: Best/Most complicated model

I am new to this list and fairly new to the world of origami. I must say
some of the models I've seen so far have been very impressive. It's
amazing what happens when people focus their energy on a piece of paper!
I was wondering... is there a particular model or group of models that
is generally accepted as the best origami has to offer in beauty and
complication? Most hobbies have a "crown jewel" that is tough to attain.
What does everyone strive to do or build? Are there pictures of such a
thing online? Are there challenges like "Ok, I made this... let's see if
any of you can make it." Just wondering how serious all of you folders
are =)

Chris





From: Nancy Hulen <nhulen@SOCKETS.NET>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 21:47
Subject: [NO] book theft mutilation

After being a circulation librarian for 32 years I have concluded it will
only take two actions to stop theft/mutilation of library materials.

Remove all materials from library buildings and seal all openings
the prevent humans from entering.

...and I'm not sure that would deter some of the more dedicated
book thieves.   After all there are people who actually make their
living stealing rare library books and manuscripts.  A man in a nearby
town was arrested and sent to prison for stealing more than a
million dollars worth of rare library books nation wide.

nancy
nhulen@sockets.net





From: "JacAlArt ." <jacalart@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 22:20
Subject: Re: Best/Most complicated model

If you've read previous threads in this group -- you'll find "beauty" and
"complexity" to be considered polar opposites! As for myself -- Kawahata's
Stegosaurus was one I was proud to have folded and doubt many others have
completed it. Also -- Koh's Cockatoo, Lang's Organist, and Issei's [Trojan]
Horse.
~Jac

>From: Chris Hundley <chris@PREMIEREPAGES.COM>
>Reply-To: Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Best/Most complicated model
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:31:26 -0600
>
>I am new to this list and fairly new to the world of origami. I must say
>some of the models I've seen so far have been very impressive. It's
>amazing what happens when people focus their energy on a piece of paper!
>I was wondering... is there a particular model or group of models that
>is generally accepted as the best origami has to offer in beauty and
>complication? Most hobbies have a "crown jewel" that is tough to attain.
>What does everyone strive to do or build? Are there pictures of such a
>thing online? Are there challenges like "Ok, I made this... let's see if
>any of you can make it." Just wondering how serious all of you folders
>are =)
>
>Chris
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: P Bailey <pbailey@OPENCOMINC.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 23:06
Subject: New Model!

Hi Folks!

Just put up the model of the month!!
and the model for November is, The U$$ Enterpri$e!
A money fold, not for the faint of heart.

I hope you enjoy the model and that it makes up for being a little
preoccupied the past couple of months!

Perry 8?')>
--
"Each time he shifted gears he did it as if the Moment of Truth
had arrived in a bullfight"
H. Allen Smith "The Pig in the Barber Shop"

http://www.afgsoft.com/perry/           <--Website w/ diagrams!
Icq 23622644





From: Marc Kirschenbaum <marckrsh@PIPELINE.COM>
Date: 01 Nov 1999 23:17
Subject: Re: (Long) Trading Off

Dave Mitchell wrote:
>> I understand that to many creators origami design is primarily a
>> puzzle-solving activity. What I've been trying to highlight is that this
>> isn't the only approach - or even necessarily the most productive one. You
>> don't need to begin with an idea of what the finished fold should be in
>> order to design. You can equally well begin with an interesting
>> configuration of folds and see how they can be developed.

>> I see no reason why the two approaches can't be meshed but unfortunately the
>> divide between them seems to be widening rather than coming together. This
>> growing dichotomy concerns me. Origami seems to be in danger of becoming two
>> entirely unrelated crafts/arts which just both happen to involve folding
>> paper.

I see the opposite happening. The stronger technique becomes, the less
forced it is. When origami design becomes second-nature, the whole creative
process will be predominantly artistic.

Also, for the record, I do not always use crumpling techniques in my design
process. I really only do that when I am trying to form a really foreign
form. After doing origami for a while, it starts to become remarkable at
the simmilarity between many basic forms. Creatos should not have to
struggle to get annimal shapes (for instance), instead they should be able
to know how to modify some basic ideas for a givven subject.

Marc

http://marckrsh.home.pipeline.com





From: John Hancock <jwhancock34@YAHOO.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 01:45
Subject: Re: creasing faces on money

None here in San Diego, CA either. I checked my
university's library recently. Over 1 million volumes
in stock, and only three that deal even tangentially
with origami. *Very* tangentially. Thank goodness for
Amazon.com! :)

John

--- "Chamberlain, Clare"
<Clare.Chamberlain@HEALTH.WA.GOV.AU> wrote:

> Clare, from the West, where there are no origami
> books in the library...
> maybe the kangaroos smuggle them out in their
> pouches!
>

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com





From: DLister891@AOL.COM
Date: 02 Nov 1999 05:07
Subject: Re: [NO] book theft mutilation

I feel I must express my utter dismay at what has been revealed under this
and related headings. Of course, I know that thefts from libraries went on
(and this applies to bookshops as well) and I know that people filch plates
from books to frame and sell as pictures. But I had no idea that these crimes
were so rife or so cynically and maliciously perpetrated or on such a
widespread scale..

I know that it has been going on for centuries. But I never expected the
chained libraries of the middle ages to reappear in the modern world! The
theft of a book is not merely a theft from a library. It is a theft from the
whole of mankind.

As a book-lover, I feel real distress and not least because this syndrome it
is an indication of the decline of morality among a section of the population
who, I should have thought, would know better.

David Lister.





From: DLister891@AOL.COM
Date: 02 Nov 1999 05:07
Subject: Re: Best/Most complicated model

Origami@mitvma.mit.edu    re Best/Most comploicated Model   2Nov99

Chris Hundley writes

> I am new to this list and fairly new to the world of origami. I must say
>  some of the models I've seen so far have been very impressive. It's
>  amazing what happens when people focus their energy on a piece of paper!
>  I was wondering... is there a particular model or group of models that
>  is generally accepted as the best origami has to offer in beauty and
>  complication? Most hobbies have a "crown jewel" that is tough to attain.

Chris is presumably seeking the Everest of paperfolding.

But I question whether complication equates with excellence. Some of the
simplest models like Takahama's Yacht and Yoshizawa's Butterfly, to my mind
have an excellence that equals that of any other folds, however complex. And
as for the North Face of the Eiger of paperfolding, I suggest that folding
the Classic Crane with perfection is as stern a challencnge as can face any
paperfolder.

But I know what Chris means. One of the pinnacles in the field of "technical"
folding is  certainly Robert Lang's Black Forest Cuckoo Clock. (Still, I
believer unpublished.) The issues of the magazine of Origami Tandteidan and
the Origami Tanteidan Yearbooks contain numerous models of technical
complexity which will challenge the most accomplished of paperfolders. Then
again, I myself am always astonished by the work of Kawasaki. Pieces like his
Quartz Crystal are brilliantly conceived, fiendishly difficult and
exquisitely folded by him.

In another field of folding I would suggest any of the sculptured heads of
Eric Joisel. There are also the paperfolded models of the Chinese folder, Lai
Chen-hsiang which were shown at the Taipeh Gallery, New York last July and
August. His work is highly complex, but at the same time exquisitely artistic
and superlatively folded. Perhaps his work is the pinnacle for which Chris is
seeking

I emphasise that this is not my list of those whom I consider to be the
greatest folders, but some of the folders I have mentioned would cetainly
come in that list. This is not because their creations are complex, but
because they are simply brilliant paperfolders.

David Lister,

Gimsby, England.





From: Dave Mitchell <davemitchell@MIZUSHOBAI.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 07:48
Subject: Trading Off

Ronald Koh wrote (about doodling:)

>Quite often, I end up re-inventing the wheel, but I do stumble upon basic
forms
>(for want of a better word) which show promises occasionally

I still can't escape the impression that although we're trying to move
closer together we're still talking an entirely different language. Creating
by deliberate serendipity is entirely unlike organising folds to model a
pre-conceived subject. I suppose that what you're talking about is a sort of
half-way house - where you find the basic fold serendipitiously and develop
the final form through careful engineering. What I'm talking about is where
the subject seems to come straight out of the paper fully born. A kind of
holistic creation - though sometimes in several stages each involving big
conceptual jumps.

I'm sorry I can't put this more clearly. I'm trying to find words to explain
something that happens to me (and other folders) all the time in practice
but is not readily amenable to logical analysis or explanation.

>Speaking for myself, I may begin folding with no specific subject
>in mind, but always seem to end up with a model according to my
>preferred field, i.e. an animal, bird, goldfish, dinosaur or anything
>living or once living.

I understand about personal likes and dislikes but I think this is also tied
up with the approach. If doodling means creating points and sub-dividing
them into other points etc then it's clear that you are likely to end up
with models that require lots of points. On the other hand if you were
doodling to look for unusual configurations of just a few simple folds - as
I do - then you would be more likely to produce modules, bowls, landscapes,
minimalist folds etc.

(It's perhaps interesting that Robert Lang commented some time ago in a BOS
mag article that he found creating subjects that were basically body - much
harder than creating those which were all arms and legs - a wild paraphrase
but I can't find the article just now.)

Speaking for myself, I do occasionally produce animal designs by the
exploratory method - but they aren't like anything any one else produces -
or probably would ever want to. The one-fold elephant, 2-piece bear and
3-piece pig are good examples.

Joseph Wu wrote:

>The reason for my strong disagreement with your position
>(which, incidentally, seems to have shifted as discussion has progressed)

It's certainly clarified. What's the point of having a discussion if you
aren't prepared to change your views during it? Might as well go and sit in
a corner by yourself!

>your rather dogmatic stance on something that is clearly not
>black & white.

Maybe - but in order to have a discussion you have to make dogmatic
statements. If you carefully hedge things around with if's and but's you
actually end up saying nothing at all.

Also, if you muddy the waters by bringing in all and sundry the discussion
founders and never gets anywhere. The only way to have a discussion is to
state a clear one-sided case ( even if it's not strictly your position) and
let other people state the opposite view (even if that's not strictly their
position either).

>I always tell people to fold other people's models and to doodle.

A good example of the difference between us on this. I tell people to keep
an open mind and to look for possibilities in the paper. Fold other people's
models by all means. But not too often. If you want to create you need to
learn directly from the paper rather than what's been done before. For
instance, when I started getting interested in modular design - inspired by
Dave Brill's Dodecahedron from silver rectangles - I deliberately stayed
away from learning what else had already been done. Okay - so I re-invented
the wheel a hundred times - and found just about every simple form that Bob
Neale and others had found in the previous 20 years - but I also found lots
of other forms no-one had come up with before. Aurora, Electra, Andromeda,
Proteus etc.

>(or, sometimes, when a subject picks me), the design appears
>in my mind.

Exactly! Now this is what I'm talking about. It just happens. The trick is
to get it to happen more often, perhaps?

>usually that first intuitive design provides the base that I need along
with a
>number of details.

Oh dear - perhaps I got all excited for nothing!

All the best

Dave Mitchell





From: Ronald Koh <ronkoh@SINGNET.COM.SG>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 10:06
Subject: Re: Trading Off

Dave Mitchell wrote:
>

> I still can't escape the impression that although we're trying to move
> closer together we're still talking an entirely different language.

Maybe, if you mean it literally. I've tried English - should we try
Chinese now? (Just kidding :o))

> I'm sorry I can't put this more clearly. I'm trying to find words to explain
> something that happens to me (and other folders) all the time in practice
> but is not readily amenable to logical analysis or explanation.

I do understand what you mean; I've been around long enough, I think.
It's just that while it happens to you and other folders, it does not
necessarily happen to everybody. It is a gift you and some of the others
have, and I believe that each of us are gifted in different ways. I have
a little confession to make: I find it more difficult to create a simple
model that I can be entirely satisfied with, than a high intermediate or
complex one - even if I deliberately doodle my way clear of sticky out
bits. And I have done countless times. Perhaps it is simply my lower
level of perception, the stronger influence of personal preferences, or
a compulsive need for detail, which usually results in a simple 'model'
being turned into something else.

I think we look at the same piece of paper differently, have a host of
different preferences and tend to produce different stuff. And there is
really no need for comparison or concern, as I think this is good for
origami on the whole.

Ronald Koh.





From: Anine Cleve <anine20@USA.NET>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 10:47
Subject: Knife, Ruler and the gecko and the fly

Hi!

I bought myself a knife today!!! (Yeah wooooow! ;) It was cheap but nice! I
haven't measured the blade yet so I can't tell you how long it is :)
Anyway, I didn't find any metalrulers in the Hardware stores either (can you
believe this!). I found one in a store which sells office equpment but it was
very expensive, so I didn't buy it (I saw the ruler with attached rotary
cutter there too that I bought in a bookstore some days ago and it costed
double or trible the price I paid, so I guess it's a very expensive store).
My question is now, do you have a suggestion to which measurements I could
fold the gecko and the fly in? So I don't need a 40 cm ruler! I have a plastic
one that is 35cm. In the diagram every fold has a certain measurement, that's
why I'm asking how to make it smaller and still keep the same proportions! If
someone had made it smaller than 40*40cm and has saved the measurements it
would be perfect!! But you have to think of that it's the first time I'm gonna
try this model so it shouldn't be in a size that is difficult to do!
Hope someone has some suggestions!

Anine

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1





From: Robby/Laura <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 10:49
Subject: Re: [Re: IRC Chat]]

Anine,
At 16.43 30/10/1999 -0400, you wrote:

>Or somebody sees my mails to the mailinglist that I'm there now or somebody
>feels like checking IRC now that they're online anyway (which is my goal). No
>need to make certain times when you're there if people check when they're
>online. People can pop in when they want to, doesn't have to be at certain
>times!

Sorry.... it was not my intention to cast doubts on your IRC experience !
Simply, I misunderstood your "I'm alone on DALnet #origami": it was not a
complaint, but an appeal to those reading your message to go on IRC and
join the channel as long as they were online. I'm happy that I tried last
night.... and I found you waiting on #origami, and we could chat !

>On the #Roxette channel people pop up 24 hours a day which is much better
than
>if all people pop up for a few hours at a certain time everyday which either
>only fits Europeans or others. Hope you get what I mean!

I do, but you cannot compare a "classic" chatting channel (#Roxette,
#beginner, #newbies, #chatting, .....) which people traditionally join at
any time for generic chatting, to a specific channel like #origami. Most of
these non-generic channels (say, 90% of all DALnet channels ?) are in fact
empty most of the time. Reasonable times which could fit the needs of (at
least) European and Americans can be found, and that would surely help.
Even more if (as it seems) there are very few people in this list who know
/ use IRC regularly. Am I wrong ?

>I'm gonna stick to Dalnet! So people come to #Origami on Dalnet any time you
>want! You might find me or others there!

I will, whenever I can. Hoping in positive response from others.....

Roberto / Robbix





From: Andrew Daw <andrewd@REDAC.CO.UK>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 12:58
Subject: Re: How big's the gecko and the fly

I made my first one from A4 paper (definitely smaller than 40x40cm).
I decided to halve all the measurements and make each grid square 0.5cm
on a side. This makes a 20x20cm square which fits onto A4 paper nicely.

The final model ended up 11cm wide (not counting the tail sticking out)
by 12.5cm tall. The folded over flap, which makes the stand, being an extra
2.5cm at the bottom.

Hope that helps out on deciding how big a square of paper you want.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Origami Mailing List [mailto:Origami@MIT.Edu]On Behalf Of Anine
> Cleve
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 4:45 PM
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Knife, Ruler and the gecko and the fly
>
>
> Hi!
>
<SNIP>
> My question is now, do you have a suggestion to which measurements I could
> fold the gecko and the fly in? So I don't need a 40 cm ruler! I have a plastic
> one that is 35cm. In the diagram every fold has a certain measurement, that's
> why I'm asking how to make it smaller and still keep the same proportions! If
> someone had made it smaller than 40*40cm and has saved the measurements it
> would be perfect!! But you have to think of that it's the first time I'm gonna
> try this model so it shouldn't be in a size that is difficult to do!
> Hope someone has some suggestions!
>
> Anine
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1





From: Doug and Anna Weathers <dougw@RDROP.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 13:08
Subject: Re: Pedants' corner {Re: Bahamut}

>There is a three headed dragon in Montroll's Zodiac and Mythical Origami
>book. As for other dragons, when I get my hands on a digital camera again,
>Ive got quite a few photos to take...
>
>Stephen
>

Yikes!  Be careful photographing those dragons -- some of them are opposed
to publicity, and you wouldn't want to get your folding fingers burned!  :>)

Looking forward to seeing the photos,
Anna

Anna Weathers, Portland, Oregon, USA
"In paradox truth."





From: Doug and Anna Weathers <dougw@RDROP.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 13:08
Subject: Re: [NO] book theft mutilation

>After being a circulation librarian for 32 years I have concluded it will
>only take two actions to stop theft/mutilation of library materials.
>
>Remove all materials from library buildings and seal all openings
>the prevent humans from entering.
>
>...and I'm not sure that would deter some of the more dedicated
>book thieves.   After all there are people who actually make their
>living stealing rare library books and manuscripts.  A man in a nearby
>town was arrested and sent to prison for stealing more than a
>million dollars worth of rare library books nation wide.
>
>nancy
>nhulen@sockets.net

It would be nice to get some perspective on this.  How many books are
checked out and successfully returned compared to the number that
disappear?

It's all too easy to let the bad examples overwhelm in importance all the
everyday, take it for granted, uses of the library as it should be used.
Millions of books circulate over and over again -- that means many, many
people are honest.  Our library practices only light security, in a region
of a million people, and contains plenty of volumes dating from the first
half of the century.  Since a book can be checked out many times, but only
stolen once, that means returns far outnumber losses.

More precise numbers, I don't know.  But maybe some of the librarians do?

Anna

Anna Weathers, Portland, Oregon, USA
"In paradox truth."





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 13:13
Subject: Re: Best/Most complicated model

>If you've read previous threads in this group -- you'll find "beauty" and
>"complexity" to be considered polar opposites! As for myself -- Kawahata's
>Stegosaurus was one I was proud to have folded and doubt many others have
>completed it. Also -- Koh's Cockatoo, Lang's Organist, and Issei's [Trojan]
>Horse.
>~Jac
>

It seems more like people have been split from polar opposites to sameness
to the gray area I prefer: beauty and complexity are opposites but they are
not the same, some complex models are beautiful, some beautiful models are
complex but not all the complex models are beautiful and not all the
beautiful models are complex.

Hey Chris you said that most hobbies have a crown jewel.  What if Origami
is more of an art form?  There is no best painting.  I disagree with people
that say that Origami is not an art, even if it's mostly devoted to
replicating reality (with many exceptions) that itself has been in art,
it's called realism.  Anyhow as for the jewel: there's nothing that all can
agree is the most beautiful, but there must certainly be a model more
complex than all others.  But the kicker is that it might not be
diagrammed, oh well.  For hypercomplexity I've always enjoyed the pictures
on Joseph Wu's sight of Meguro's works.  Happy folding!!!!!!

David "you can never use enough exclamation marks" Whitbeck





From: Marion Riley <marion-r@WEBTV.NET>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 13:15
Subject: Re: Knife, Ruler and the gecko and the fly

Hi Anine-

 To convert the measurements for the gecko
(or anything else) first divide the longest
measurement into the measurement you need.

 Using your example 40cm to 35cm-

  35 divided by 40= ,88 this is the percentage
of change.

 multiply the percentage of change by any
desired measurement to obtain the new
measurement for example-

30cm x .88= 26.4

26.4 is your new measurement.

 Hope this helps

               Marion





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 13:17
Subject: Re: creasing faces on money

>None here in San Diego, CA either. I checked my
>university's library recently. Over 1 million volumes
>in stock, and only three that deal even tangentially
>with origami. *Very* tangentially. Thank goodness for
>Amazon.com! :)
>
>John

That's because it's a research library!  Try looking at the art library,
surely you have an art library...  Origami books are easiest to not find
because they're checked or lost in the public libraries rather than in
research libraries that would have very little need for origami books.  I
know I checked and all I found was a book of spanish poetry on Origami.

David





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 13:29
Subject: Re: Trading Off

Sorry to interrupt this lovely chat, but I have a question.  What were you
four/five original stances in this discussion?  It seems like in the
beginning you all had stances and were argueing about the validity of them
and now it's hard to tell if there is any debate going on or are just now
talking about different aspects of creating?  Could somebody explain to me
what exactly has happened and the results over the last several days.  I
feel like a mere mortal looking up at the sky to see Joseph Wu, Dave
Mitchell, Paul Jackson and Ronald Koh throwing origami lightning bolts at
each other, and now the storm is over but it's all clouded over.

David "dismayed and confused" Whitbeck





From: Julia Palffy <jupalffy@BLUEWIN.CH>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 13:36
Subject: Re: unreal!

Chaining books to shelves so they won't get stolen is anything but new -
they did it all the time in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. If you
want to see what that looks like, and you have the chance to go to
Florence, Italy, try to visit the Biblioteca Laurentina.
But in all my ten years as a librarian, I have never yet come across this
solution in a modern library !!!!

Julia Palffy
Zug, Switzerland
jupalffy@bluewin.ch

__________
I__I__I__I__I
I__I__I__I__I
I__I__I__I__I
I__I__I__I__I   There are more possibilities than you imagine.





From: Robby/Laura <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 14:06
Subject: Re: paper cutters

Bob,
At 17.18 1/11/1999 -0500, you wrote:
........
>I'd entertain suggestions for other brands as
>well, but my research indicates that Fiskars would be much less
>expensive.

I don't agree on favouring cheapness over quality, when it comes to buy
something that you're expecting to use for the rest of your life. If you
can't afford it now, OK, put a few bucks in your money-box and do the same
in the next (2,3,4.....n...) months. Then break your Piggy and go buy the
best quality rotary cutter you can find (commonly used for trimming photos,
so a big photo equipment store could be the right place to search in).
You'll never regret a single cent. I bought my sturdy, heavy 16x16" rotary
cutter over 20 years ago: its gears are slightly worn now but it's still
working nicely after several thousand cuts......

Just my 2c.

Roberto





From: Douglas Zander <dzander@SOLARIA.SOL.NET>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 14:53
Subject: book vandalism at libraries

Talk about book vadalism, how about when a book is vandalized by a man
who gets the pages "sticky", if you know what I mean.  Yuch!





From: Rob Hudson <FashFold@AOL.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 15:18
Subject: Defiling the great Japanese novel

I am more concerned about the person who would defile an origami book in the
sticky manner.

(Oh-- oh!  Hull, you are SOO goooood!)





From: Thoki Yenn <thok@THOK.DK>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 15:52
Subject: Sv:      Re: paper cutters

>>Bob,
>>At 17.18 1/11/1999 -0500, you wrote:

>>but my research indicates that Fiskars would be much less
>>expensive.

I have a sign on my wall saying:

"The bitterness
of poor quality remains
long after
the sweetness
of low price
is forgotten."

I like the way it is formulated.

Greetings Thoki Yenn





From: Paul Jackson <Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 15:53
Subject: Re: Knife, Ruler and the gecko and the fly

I have a different method for dividing any length into exact 40ths.

By Fujimoto's 'Iterative' method, divide the edge into 5ths (I presume
this simple, elegant method is documented on the web, but I don't know
where.  Does anyone have a URL?).  Halve the 5ths to make 10ths, again
to make 20ths and again to make 40ths.  If you can't use the Iterative
method, measure the edge with a rule then place pencil marks on the
edge at 1/5th intervals, crease and continue as above.

By using one of Fujimoto's basic Iterative divisions (1/3rds, 1/5ths,
1/7ths or 1/9ths) and subdividing by halving, pretty well any number
of divisions can be created, particularly if you don't mind cutting
off a few divisions at the end -- eg: to make 38ths, first make 40ths,
then chop off two divisions.

The Iterative method does away with any need for measuring. It is also
very quick, accurate and satisfyingly 'pure'.  I use it a lot to make
my pleated organic pieces, many of which begin with an awkward number
of divisions.

Paul Jackson





From: Thoki Yenn <thok@THOK.DK>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 16:47
Subject: Sv:      Re: Knife, Ruler and the gecko and the fly

Paul Jackson wrote:>I have a different method for dividing any length into
     exact 40ths.
>
>By Fujimoto's 'Iterative' method, divide the edge into 5ths (I presume
>this simple, elegant method is documented on the web, but I don't know
>where.  Does anyone have a URL?).

Here is one URL:
http://www.thok.dk/5parts.html

Greetings
from your nabour in Cyberspace
the G&G of the North.:





From: Marc Kirschenbaum <contract@PIPELINE.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 17:36
Subject: Re: Best/Most complicated model

Hi all,

To reply to this thread, it might make matters simpler to think in terms of
the most diffiult procedure or move, rather than a specific model. Lots of
arts have aspects that are known to be hard to master, and origami is no
exception.
Difficulty can be crewated from an unfamiliarity with a move; that is, the
move itself might not be physically difficult to do. An example would be
having to turn a model inside-out. Once mastered, these sorts of things are
actually pretty easy (and fun too). As far as phisically difficult, I would
have to say closed-sinking a very acute appendage (at lets say 30 degrees
or less). I had a model that had such a move, and I could barely fold it.
It was a slightly more efficient version of my "Violinist" model, and the
extra difficulty was just not worth it. If you want to experience this
pleasure for yourself, fold a waterbomb base in half a couple of times, and
then closed-sink the resulting point. Ouch!

Marc





From: Robby/Laura <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 18:06
Subject: Re: IRC success

Anine,
At 17.33 1/11/1999 MET, you wrote:

>Since I started to go on #Origami every time I was on IRC I have now chatted
>with 3 or 4 people from the mailinglist and today I had a Swedish guy joining
>the channel to ask what origami was.
...............................
> So let's see what happens next ;)

Well done..... good publicity !!

>PS. IRC is very good when you need help folding a model or something like
>that.

I can also add that IRC makes one-to-one chatting (DCC) AND exchanging
files in real time a VERY easy thing.....

Roberto





From: Dave Stephenson <EruditusD@AOL.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 20:01
Subject: Re: unreal!

Why not cut out the middle man here and chain the thieves to the shelves,
save time in the longrun...

Dave-S

> Chaining books to shelves so they won't get stolen is anything but new -
>  they did it all the time in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. If you
>  want to see what that looks like, and you have the chance to go to
>  Florence, Italy, try to visit the Biblioteca Laurentina.
>  But in all my ten years as a librarian, I have never yet come across this
>  solution in a modern library !!!!
>
>  Julia Palffy
>  Zug, Switzerland





From: Dave Stephenson <EruditusD@AOL.COM>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 20:16
Subject: Re: Best/Most complicated model

>>Most hobbies have a "crown jewel" that is tough to attain.
>>What does everyone strive to do or build?

Not an easy one to answer as it is determined solely by the folders interests
be it complexity, aesthetic beauty (Admittedly not mutually exclusive, but
you know what I mean), modular etc...

For complexity for the masses you could look as Lang's Origami insects as a
crown jewel, I think most people on the list have (will) at somepoint in time
strived to fold every model in this book ... no matter how many times the
paper literally falls apart in your hands...

I know that this is a book and not a particular model but anyone who's looked
at this book as an intermediate folder will know exactly what I mean. How
hard was Lang laughing when he wrote every model in this book is can be
folded from a square of normal paper ... (or words to that effect at the end
of the preface:) )

Dave-(4 Down)-S





From: Deg Farrelly <DEG.FARRELLY@ASU.EDU>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 20:20
Subject: Re: [NO]ILL

Anine Cleve wrote:

> I tried once I wanted to borrow a Roxette Biography at the library. I went
> to
> the bigger library (in the nearest bigger town with about 30.000
> inhabitants)
> but they didn't have it and they couldn't get it for me from anywhere they
> said (I think they even checked on their computer). Then I went to my
> local
> library which lies in my village with 1000 inhabitants and they got it for
> me
> from another library!! I thought it was strange that the big library
> couldn't
> get it but the small one could!
> It's a strange world sometimes ;)
> I borrowed the book later again from the same library ;)
>
> Anine
>
>
ILL is  very labor intensive, even with computers that help ID which
libraries hold which books.

Many lending libraries have policies to charge for the loan of an item to
another library.  Many libraries have policies to not pay charges... and so
staff take enormous amounts of time tracking down materials from "free"
sources.  Sadly, few libraries realize that the time staff spend on such
searching constitutes a hidden cost.   These policies might explain while
one library was able to obtain the book, and another wasn't.

In some circumstances, patrons have to pay any associated costs of ILL.
Studies show that the average ILL charge is about $16, but the average
amount that a patron is willing to pay is $2.88.  (I'm doing this from
memory, so do not hold me to that figure).

In terms of actual costs, the average for an ILL runs $25-30.  That includes
staff time processing, retrieving, and shipping charges.

In my opinion, Public Libraries offer the single greatest return on the tax
dollar in the US!

OK, so I am biased... both a librarian *and* the program manager for
Document Delivery/ILL in my library!

deg farrelly

> I tried once I wanted to borrow a Roxette Biography at the library. I went
> to
> the bigger library (in the nearest bigger town with about 30.000
> inhabitants)
> but they didn't have it and they couldn't get it for me from anywhere they
> said (I think they even checked on their computer). Then I went to my
> local
> library which lies in my village with 1000 inhabitants and they got it for
> me
> from another library!! I thought it was strange that the big library
> couldn't
> get it but the small one could!
> It's a strange world sometimes ;)
> I borrowed the book later again from the same library ;)
>
> Anine





From: Michael Janssen-Gibson <mig@ISD.CANBERRA.EDU.AU>
Date: 02 Nov 1999 23:16
Subject: Re: NO - ILL & Disappearing Books (long)

Greetings

I have been following this thread with some interest (and some chuckles -
especially the messages that begin "not that I would do this, but you
can...." - so much thought has gone into an "unpractised" practice?!). I
will confess now that I am ultra-cynical, having worked in an academic
library for the past few years. Sorry David, but it seems students here in
Canberra do not share your rose-coloured ideals of the use of libraries -
in fact the number of reasons for wanting to deface/steal a book is merely
increased eg. assignment due in an hour, no money to buy the text book or
photocopy......

Our overdue fines are steep, ranging from $2 per day overdue to $2 per
hour - unfortunately this is still not deterrent enough, and of course we
also have the problem Carol mentioned of actually ensuring we receive the
money. Some universities withhold degrees, others block borrowing records
after you reach a certain amount. We *can* take legal action if we choose,
but again as was mentioned before, the individual amounts don't make it
worthwhile. I have often volunteered to visit the homes of people who have
checked out books and never bothered returning them (and stiff-arm them
until they give back the book) - but as yet no one has taken me up on the
offer ;-}.

As for vigilance, our library has sealed windows, one exit, and staff
constantly monitoring that exit, but it also has three other floors, study
areas, numerous desks, and is designed for the student to browse and work
in relative quiet and solitude (and ours is a small library by
comparison). Creating this environment also unfortunately gives people the
chance to deface books undetected.

So what are the alternatives? A closed-access collection, where you have
to request the books you would like to look at, and then each book is
physically checked upon return (the latter a time/moeny-consuming
process). Or increase fines and method of collection,
deciding that the principle is more important than the effort, and 'wear'
whatever public image this action generates?

regards
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Michael Janssen-Gibson                 e-mail: mig@isd.canberra.edu.au
Applied Science
ISD, Library                   phone/voice mail: +61 6 (06)  201 5665
University of Canberra
PO Box 1 Belconnen, ACT 2616
