




From: Paul Jackson <Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 05:54
Subject: Crumpling

From: Marc Kirschenbaum <marckrsh@PIPELINE.COM>

> At 01:02 PM 10/24/99 +0100, Paul Jackson <Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM>
wrote:
>
> >(For those
> >creators interested primarily in anatomical detail, I strongly
> >recommend they abandon complex bases and begin crumpling

To which Marc replied:

> Speaking as a creator of complex models (note, I did not pick or
endorse
> this label), I have to admit I employ a lot of crumpling in my
creative
> process. Many of my models started as crumpling excercizes, so I can
ignore
> the detail of having neat folding sequences, and focus more on
overall
> structure and form. After the later has been found, I can then
develop my
> work into what we more readily recognize as origami. If I do say so
myself,
> i am rather good at crumpling, and have been tempted to increase my
> creative output by going this route. I would hate to diagram such
works...
>

Marc (and everyone),

Here's an anecdote that might interest you.  Some years ago I was
employed by an upmarket shopping centre in Utrecht, Holland, to fold
crumpled Christmas decorations (I'm not joking!) to put onto a 25 foot
tree, involving passing shoppers in the activity (who, bizarrely,
absolutely loved it!!).  Hermann van Goubergen (the noted Belgian
creator) dropped by for a few days.  I don't now remember the exact
course of the conversation, but Hermann saw possibilities not just for
crumpling tree decorations, but also for making representational
models.  Jokingly, I challenged him to make a stegasaurus -- the most
complex thing that came immediately to mind.

Literally just an hour later, he presented me with an astonishing 3-D
model of the beast!!  It had many plates, tail spikes, legs the right
length and a good head.  Not only was it anatomically very detailed
and well proportioned, but the form had a soft 'organic' look to it,
far removed from the dead, mechanical look of most conventional
origami animals.  Also, the crumpled texture looked natural, even
beautiful.  To this day it's not just the best origami/paper folded
stegasaurus I've seen, by far, but one of the best animals I've ever
seen.   Not bad for something created so quickly and with such
apparent nonchalance!

I was VERY excited by the possibilities that Hermann had opened up,
but disappointed (and I confess, a little annoyed) when he dismissed
it as 'too easy'.  He later created an equally impressive beetle, but
I don't think he has since returned to crumpling.

So, Marc's posting (above) about using the same technique is most
interesting to me.  Clearly, detail is possible, rather than just the
'overall structure and form'  which Marc creates by crumpling.  It
would be fascinating to see some crumpled pieces alongside the more
conventional origami versions they led to, perhaps even reworked with
more crumpled detail.  The comparisons would be most instructive.

Preparing a good crumpled surface isn't quite as straightforward as it
might sound -- it actually takes some practice.  If anyone would like
to have a go at creating with this technique, I'll post a description
of how to crumple the sheet properly.

Paul Jackson





From: Matthias Gutfeldt <tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 07:34
Subject: Re: Crumpling

>===== Original Message From Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> =====
>Preparing a good crumpled surface isn't quite as straightforward as it
>might sound -- it actually takes some practice.  If anyone would like
>to have a go at creating with this technique, I'll post a description
>of how to crumple the sheet properly.

Wow, crumplegami. I must have been crumpling paper improperly for years!
Please do post the description!

Matthias 'this is NOT a joke!' Matthias





From: Carole Young <youngcj@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 08:29
Subject: Re: Friend

Well Tommy, you have come to the right place.  This list is overflowing with
nice and helpful people who like to talk about and share their knowledge of
origami.

Carole

-----Original Message-----
From: Origami Mailing List [mailto:Origami@MIT.Edu]On Behalf Of Tommy
Allen jr.
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 9:00 PM
To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Friend

Hello Everyone!
     I'm a male boy 15 years old live in Centre Pennsylvania and i am very
talented w/origami.  I catch onto folds and diagrams quikly but I like folds
that are easy and self explanatory.  Well I just joined Origami -1, and I am
looking for some nice friends to talk to about Origami.  Anyone out there?
                          Tommy

http://www.go.com

________________________________________________________ ____
Get your Free GO Network Email address at http://mail.go.com





From: Dave Mitchell <davemitchell@MIZUSHOBAI.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 08:49
Subject: Origami v Paper Folding

***** Warning - this message contains a joke. ******

Origami v Paperfolding? Surely these two words are exactly synonymous?

Okay, so maybe origami was originally just a Japanese word - but then
ketchup was originally just a Malayan word and we don't reserve that purely
for sauce made in Malaya!

Like camel (from Hebrew), typhoon (from Chinese), tomato (from Nahuatl) and
zebra (from Amharic) - origami (from Japan) has been adopted into English,
and it's been adopted to mean paperfolding - in all it's infinite
varieties - plain and simple. Normal usage defines this and trying to change
it now is very much like Canute trying to hold back the sea.

I agree whole-heartedly with Paul Jackson that origami is about more than
just modelmaking - but surely a better solution is to distinguish between
model-making origami and other types - rather than trying to redefine the
meaning of the word origami itself?

David Lister pointed out that the fundamental BOS definition of origami is:

>"(1)  The Society defines origami as the folding of paper of any regular
>shape to from two or three dimensional models of living creatures,
inanimate
>objects and abstract forms.

What I find curious here is not the use of the word origami but the use of
the word model. How do you model an abstract form? If it's an abstract form
it surely isn't a model of anything?

(Note this is different from the idea that an origami representation is
always to some extent an abstraction of elements within the subject
modelled.)

The words 'paper of any regular shape' are also extremely odd. Is a
kite-shape regular, for instance? It has reflective symmetry but otherwise
....

It would also be interesting to know what David Lister makes of Oliver
Zachary's no-fold origami?

Dave Mitchell





From: DORIGAMI@AOL.COM
Date: 26 Oct 1999 08:53
Subject: Re: rose

My money rose is nice and can be made from copier paper cut to the size of a
dollar.....I have book and video available.....look for Paperfolding Plus
website or under money roses, moneyfolding.......Dorigami





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 09:03
Subject: Batman Paper.

I am wanting to fold a Batman mask. The model I will be folding needs to be
from wet foldable duo (flesh tone and black of course). I have some flesh
tone wet foldable paper but I can't fathom a good way to make one side
black. I have some ideas of things to try but before I dig in and get my
hands dirty I thought I'd see if anyone had any good and simple solutions.

Thanks for your ideas,
Jeff Kerwood.





From: James Storrs <italic@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 09:09
Subject: Re: Origami v Paper Folding

Normal usage defines this and trying to change
> it now is very much like Canute trying to hold back the sea.
-----------
The king wasn't trying to hold back the tides.  He was emphasizing his
fallibility by this act which is misinterpreted today as "follibility."





From: Jennifer Campbell <CampbellJ@DFO-MPO.GC.CA>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 09:14
Subject: those intersecting tetrahedrons again

Hello those who fold Tom Hull's 5 Intersecting Polyhedra,
All the discussion these days about this model has prompted me to give it a
try. I always did have it bookmarked, but now I am folding it. What I
confess to is the need for glue :-(
I am using regular packaged "kami" paper and I find it just too springy and
shiny to hold together, even when a tetrahedron is fully formed. The edge
tabs want to slide out even though the lock is firm. The tetrahedron seems
precarious without glue. Has anyone else had this problem? My consolation is
that, once I get this thing done (?!) it will have to withstand a lot of
handling, so I can forgive myself for making it more durable? And as always,
I'm only willing to glue if the model could stand without it (well that, and
attaching heads to dragons...)

Jennifer Campbell.





From: Rob Hudson <FashFold@AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 09:45
Subject: Re: Friend

Tommy,

What part of Central Pennsylvania do you live in? I'm in the York/Harrisburg
area.  There aren't any folding groups around here, but there are two within
a couple of hours of the area.  If anyone else on the list is in this area
and would like to start a folding group, e-mail me!

Rob





From: Carlos Alberto Furuti <furuti@AHAND.UNICAMP.BR>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 10:10
Subject: Re: Batman Paper.

>>From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
>>tone wet foldable paper but I can't fathom a good way to make one side
>>black. I have some ideas of things to try but before I dig in and get my
>>hands dirty I thought I'd see if anyone had any good and simple solutions.

There are plenty of two-color models available so it shouldn't be difficult
finding a suitable technique. A B*tm*n (oh no, I infringed DC Comics
trademarks) mask was published in "El Libro de las Mascaras de Papel Piegado",
Grupo Riglos (talented Spaniard creators including Gabriel Alvarez and
Luis Bas Arrechea), Alianza Editorial, Spain, along with several others
(including Joker)

        Sincerely,
                Carlos
        furuti@ahand.unicamp.br www.ahand.unicamp.br/~furuti





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:03
Subject: kusudama lotus

Judging from the photo and past experience :-)
the lotus kusudama on the Shumakov's web site
appears to be assembled in the traditional way,
i.e. glue. Overlap the tips of the petal a very
little bit and glue them together.

Valerie Vann





From: Stephen Canon <Stephen_Canon@BROWN.EDU>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:10
Subject: Re: those intersecting tetrahedrons again

>Hello those who fold Tom Hull's 5 Intersecting Polyhedra,
>All the discussion these days about this model has prompted me to give it a
>try. I always did have it bookmarked, but now I am folding it. What I
>confess to is the need for glue :-(
>I am using regular packaged "kami" paper and I find it just too springy and
>shiny to hold together, even when a tetrahedron is fully formed. The edge
>tabs want to slide out even though the lock is firm. The tetrahedron seems
>precarious without glue. Has anyone else had this problem? My consolation is
>that, once I get this thing done (?!) it will have to withstand a lot of
>handling, so I can forgive myself for making it more durable? And as always,
>I'm only willing to glue if the model could stand without it (well that, and
>attaching heads to dragons...)
>
>Jennifer Campbell.

Hmmm...I've never had this problem with any kind of paper, at any
scale.  Even with metal, I've found these to be among the most secure
locks in any modular.  Are you sure that you're folding the joints
correctly?  You might want to double check....

-Stephen Canon





From: Paul Jackson <Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:18
Subject: How to Crumple!

Here's the crumpling technique.

First -- and most important -- the correct paper must be used.
Anything below about or below 40gsm is OK (about the weight of airmail
paper), the thinner the better.  Crucially, the paper must pass what I
call the 'rattle test'. That is, when held and shaken about in the
air, the paper rattles loudly.  Paper which rattles will usually hold
a
crease well. So tissue paper, although thin enough and relatively easy
to find, doesn't usually pass this test.  The sheet needs to be pretty
big -- A3 is OK, but A2 is better (about 16 x 24in).  I use 25gsm
'Bible paper' (as paper merchants call it), made to print Bibles on.
I know Vincent Floderer uses a brown butchers' paper, used for
wrapping meat.  He even wet folds ('wet crumples'?) it!

So good paper found...

...crumple the sheet into a ball as tightly as possible, using some
strength.  Then ...crucially... don't wrench the paper open, but half
unpick it, evenly and gently, so that all the creases are kept and the
sheet is in relief (NOT FLATTENED), resembling the Himalayas.  Crumple
it tightly again.  Again, evenly and gently half unpick it to a
relief, retaining all the creases.  Repeat the crumpling/half
unpicking cycle maybe six times. Each time the sheet is unpicked, it
should be smaller than it was before, so that an A2 sheet eventually
shrinks into a densely crumpled sheet about the size of a postcard!
The more the sheet shrinks, the more 'surplus' is created, so the more
detail can be created later.  The aim is to fill the sheet with as
many crumples as it will hold, so that every crease remains fresh and
springy.  Too little crumpling and the sheet doesn't shrink much; too
much and the creases turn soft.  It takes practice to crumple just
the right amount!

Once the crumpled board has been made, there are at least three ways
forward.  The first is to stretch long, clean, knife-edged mountain
'ribs' though the crumples.  These creases don't lie flat, but create
beautiful, organic arch forms. The second is to press the board round
an object or over a relief, to create a cast of the subject beneath.
For those of you who like detail and representational accuracy (I
won't say 'realism')  this technique beats all other folding
techniques.

The third technique is one I haven't tried, but I think must be the
model making one used by Marc Kirschenbaum and Hermann van Goubergen,
mentioned earlier in this thread.  I presume it to begin with a
mapping out of where the sharp points of the final model would be on
the open sheet (OK, the crumpled sheet), then to scrunch up the
crumpled sheet while expanding specific crumpled areas in just the
right places, to create the 'base' for the model.  Further refinements
then create the detail.  At least, that's my guess.  Maybe Marc could
enlighten us further?

There are other crumpling patterns, such as making all the crumples
parallel, or radiating them from a point (or points) within the sheet
or from an edge/corner.

I hope this is clear.  If anyone tries creating with this technique,
I'd love to hear about or see the results.  I think the potential is
very exciting.

Paul Jackson





From: Bob Stack <Noobob@AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:56
Subject: Re: QUESTION FOR MARC K.

    The question of what makes people diagram their own models and why does
someone diagram the models of others can be answered both simply and in a
more complex manner.  I got involved in Origami by taking a class with
Lillian Oppenheimer and Verdi Adams.  As a result I took a 6 week class with
Alice Gray and Michael Shall.  Their view of Origami included three concepts,
namely share , share , and share.  Clearly that is the first reason for
diagramming.  Just as a composer writes music, that is puts notes on paper,
which is then performed and recorded there is nothing non creative in
creating a work and then giving it to others to copy and to interpret.
    I have spent many years diagramming for the Annual Collection.  When I
see something in the book that I helped bring to others I feel good.  Also as
a result of my work for others I have begun to do a little creating of my
own.  This is meaningful not because I put myself in the class of the truly
artistic creators, where I certainly do not belong, but because it indicates
that Origami, like all other art forms, encompasses all levels.  There are
many great performers in music but many more who just get pleasure out of it.





From: Kenny1414@AOL.COM
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:58
Subject: Why document? (was Re: QUESTION FOR MARC K.)

In a message dated 10/26/1999 2:11:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH writes:

> I could copy 'Der Erlknig' a hundred times, and it would
>  still be a great poem (and me a great fool!).

Or, you could be a practising calligrapher.  :-)

That was my immediate reaction to your example.

Off the top of my head, without really thinking it over,
there are several reasons for diagramming origami
or documenting anything.

1 - Creating a more readable/usable document is an art in itself.

     (Pick your favorite hard-to-follow diagram, and think about
     improving it. Or think about how easy it is to write an
     unreadable computer program or musical score.

     APL, anyone? That's an inside joke to any computer
     programmers in the audience. APL has the reputation of
     being a write-only language, because it is capable of being
     written so compactly, and looks so peculiar, that you have
     to really study bad APL code to figure out what it does.

     Actually, the same holds for bad programming in any
     programming language, but APL is an extreme example.)

2 - The document itself can be made pleasing to the eye,
     which is a separate craft. As an extreme example, see
     illuminated manuscripts, like the Book of Kells.

3 - New media lead to changed document requirements,
     which begs for documents to be recast in appropriate
     format.  Current examples: web pages, animation,
     3-D virtual reality, videos.

     (As a side note, has anyone seen the Printer's Devil's
     Cap, the little square newspaper cap, diagrammed on
     any web page yet, or for that matter, a reasonably
     complete set of  diagrams for the traditional folds out
     on the web? The question came up because I got a
     request for the hat, and couldn't find a diagram, except
     in one book I am not comfortable lending or copying
     for fear of damaging the book.)

4 - Most of us learned from documents prepared by those
     who preceded us. Creating more documents of new works,
     is a way of returning the favor, by continuing and enlarging
     the tradition. I.e., we document to fulfill the obligation to
     return this gift. (See also, Japanese concepts of On and
     Giri.)

5 - As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, we document to
     help ourselves remember. (Not all of us have photographic
     memories. Mine's definitely not.)

6 - We document (or teach) to preserve and share the craft.

7 - And some may document just because they can (and/or
     must; look up OCD, Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder, and
     related topics).  It's a talent, not all that common, and
     may be a pleasure, or at least a source of pride.

8 - With regard to the pleasure of creating a document,
     think of 'working meditation' and the "flow state", left-brain
     thinking, rapture. I forget what the Zen word for the
     condition is.

     Also, the Japanese Zen Buddhist word "satori", wordless
     enlightenment, inspiration, epiphany, the "Aha!" feeling
     when ideas click into place.

Speaking of which, I think my flow state's tide is going out.
Oh, well. Read the words. I tried to cast a wide enough net,
so at least one of them should click, if you study them.

(My apologies to the non-English reading audience.
I don't know the corresponding 'words of power' in your
languages, tho I'm sure your poets have and use them.)

Not as condensed as kanji or runes, but words are symbols
too, deriving power from their meanings and associations,
some of which come from your own personal experience,
and a lot of which come from our shared, learned, experience.

More English words to think on, as a parting gift, wright, smith,
craft, magick, tradition, path, way, Tao, Logos, Word, ...
Use them as hooks, probes, triggers, what-have-you, but
you do have to know their meanings to see and use them well.

(My apologies for the length of this posting, and
no offense intended to those of any Faith.

On a bad day I'm an Atheist, on a good day I'm an Agnostic.)

Oops! Tide's out.

Aloha,
Kenneth Kawamura
kenny1414@aol.com





From: Kenny1414@AOL.COM
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:58
Subject: Re: Crumpling

In a message dated 10/26/1999 6:02:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM writes:

> It
>  would be fascinating to see some crumpled pieces alongside the more
>  conventional origami versions they led to, perhaps even reworked with
>  more crumpled detail.  The comparisons would be most instructive.

Indeed. As a start, do you maybe still have Hermann van Goubergen's
crumpled-paper Stegosaur and Beetle, and could you send me, or post
somewhere, a wee picture or two, since I'm having trouble imagining them.

Aloha,
Kenneth Kawamura
kenny1414@aol.com





From: Julia Palffy <jupalffy@BLUEWIN.CH>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:58
Subject: Re: Intersecting Tetrahedra

Hello!
I'm in the same situation as Jennifer Campbell - the discussion also
prompted me to try folding the five intersecting tetrahedra, but another
discussion thread led me to try to fold it with elephant hide, and that's
working fine. The paper combines stiffness & springiness, so that when you
have assembled a tetrahedron it holds together without glue and strikes me
as a very stable structure. My only problem is that I am stuck with how to
assemble/weave tetrahedron 3 with the two first ones, and it's not so much
a problem of needing different colours to distinguish the different parts
of the object as of how to keep the first two tetrahedra steady enough in
the right position to get the third tetrahedron in right. I suppose I
should try to find a second pair of hands to help me...or does anyone have
another suggestion?

Julia Palffy
Zug, Switzerland
jupalffy@bluewin.ch

__________
I__I__I__I__I
I__I__I__I__I
I__I__I__I__I
I__I__I__I__I   There are more possibilities than you imagine.





From: sychen@EROLS.COM
Date: 26 Oct 1999 12:11
Subject: Re: How to Crumple!

Paul,
Thanks for the tip. Why don't you just present some of your crumpled
artworks. I would love to see it. Besides Vincent Floderer's
works I do see some of the embedded works from other designers
(including complex). Here are a fews in my mind:

* ?Head? by Yoshizawa? I might be wrong. I saw it without title
tag in Charlotte, NC - Can someone enlighen me?

* Rat by ??? Could be an Italian. I saw it in BOS. Sorry for
the poor memory.

* Clogged Artery by Jeramy Shafer - How to make it gross?

* Dung Beetle by ???(Japanese designer) - I saw it in OUSA convention.
A very interesting mix between crumpled d??? and complex insect.

I believe many folders (not mentioning designers) already "create"
tons of crumpled works. But they just hesitate to share. For
those interested You can see some comments from Mark Morden's
page -
http://www.eskimo.com/~marmonk/failed.htm

Start Crumpling...

Sy Chen

--- Original Message ---
Paul Jackson <Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM> Wrote on
        Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:14:54 +0100
 ------------------
Here's the crumpling technique.

First -- and most important -- the correct paper must be used.
Anything below about or below 40gsm is OK (about the weight of
airmail
paper), the thinner the better.  Crucially, the paper must pass
what I
call the 'rattle test'. That is, when held and shaken about in
the
air, the paper rattles loudly.  Paper which rattles will usually
hold
a
crease well. So tissue paper, although thin enough and relatively
easy
to find, doesn't usually pass this test.  The sheet needs to
be pretty
big -- A3 is OK, but A2 is better (about 16 x 24in).  I use 25gsm
'Bible paper' (as paper merchants call it), made to print Bibles
on.
I know Vincent Floderer uses a brown butchers' paper, used for
wrapping meat.  He even wet folds ('wet crumples'?) it!

So good paper found...

....crumple the sheet into a ball as tightly as possible, using
some
strength.  Then ...crucially... don't wrench the paper open,
but half
unpick it, evenly and gently, so that all the creases are kept
and the
sheet is in relief (NOT FLATTENED), resembling the Himalayas.
 Crumple
it tightly again.  Again, evenly and gently half unpick it to
a
relief, retaining all the creases.  Repeat the crumpling/half
unpicking cycle maybe six times. Each time the sheet is unpicked,
it
should be smaller than it was before, so that an A2 sheet eventually
shrinks into a densely crumpled sheet about the size of a postcard!
The more the sheet shrinks, the more 'surplus' is created, so
the more
detail can be created later.  The aim is to fill the sheet with
as
many crumples as it will hold, so that every crease remains fresh
and
springy.  Too little crumpling and the sheet doesn't shrink much;
too
much and the creases turn soft.  It takes practice to crumple
just
the right amount!

Once the crumpled board has been made, there are at least three
ways
forward.  The first is to stretch long, clean, knife-edged mountain
'ribs' though the crumples.  These creases don't lie flat, but
create
beautiful, organic arch forms. The second is to press the board
round
an object or over a relief, to create a cast of the subject beneath.
For those of you who like detail and representational accuracy
(I
won't say 'realism')  this technique beats all other folding
techniques.

The third technique is one I haven't tried, but I think must
be the
model making one used by Marc Kirschenbaum and Hermann van Goubergen,
mentioned earlier in this thread.  I presume it to begin with
a
mapping out of where the sharp points of the final model would
be on
the open sheet (OK, the crumpled sheet), then to scrunch up the
crumpled sheet while expanding specific crumpled areas in just
the
right places, to create the 'base' for the model.  Further refinements
then create the detail.  At least, that's my guess.  Maybe Marc
could
enlighten us further?

There are other crumpling patterns, such as making all the crumples
parallel, or radiating them from a point (or points) within the
sheet
or from an edge/corner.

I hope this is clear.  If anyone tries creating with this technique,
I'd love to hear about or see the results.  I think the potential
is
very exciting.

Paul Jackson

-----
Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html )
The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 13:07
Subject: Re: Origami v Paper Folding

Redefining origami to mean something more than paperfolding to me seems
elitist.  A small group of people think that the word is too broad, but
that won't stop the countless people that don't fold origami from keeping
that definition.  What right could we have to decide on a new definition of
the word?  Besides it's not important the word we use to describe what we
do, but how we describe it in our mind.  Saying that origami has too broad
a meaning is okay with me.  And we already have words to describe the
different kinds of paperfolding, so what else is there?  These are just my
thoughts on the matter and not a direct reply to anybody.

I'm a little confused about something though: this is to David Lister: if
origami didn't originate in Japan, where did it originate?

David





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 13:07
Subject: Re: Batman Paper.

Hey Jeff!  Buy Lizard skin paper.  It's wetfolding good paper that's jet
black on one side.

David





From: Rob Hudson <FashFold@AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 13:13
Subject: Re: Origami v Paper Folding

Uh oh.. I sense a purist thread coming on..

<Filters engaged>





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 13:24
Subject: Bringing Origami to Life

Hi to all!  I've been waiting a long time for Bringing Origmai to Life to
come out.  Apparently someone bought a copy at Barnes and Nobles and the
website says that it is available.  But the bookstore I ordered my copy
from shares the same wharehouse as Barnes and Nobles, so if Barnes and
Nobles received copies of it so would the Avid Reader.  I am no confused.
I want to know if anyone out there has received their copy of Bringing
Origami to Life yet, under the condition that it is bought from a bookstore
I don't need to here yes from all the people who went to the OUSA
convention.  Thanks for your time.

David





From: Christina Nester <tinan@ISICMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 14:13
Subject: Bringing O. to Life / Other books

Hi everybody,

   Does anyone know if Bringing Origami to Life has come out??? Amazon Germany
     says it has, while amazon.com still has it on preorder... I'd be inclined
     to believe amazon.com, but maybe there's still hope:-))

   As to other books: I've been really fighting myself lately because I've been
     thinking about getting Origami Sea Life. I have a few Montroll books, as
     well as Origami Zoo, Origami Insects and Origami from Angelfish to Zen. Do
     I need Origami Sea Life RIG

   As always, thanks for your advice,

         Tina





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 14:19
Subject: Re: Batman Paper.

> From: david whitbeck
> Hey Jeff!  Buy Lizard skin paper.  It's wetfolding good paper that's jet
> black on one side.

Cool, what cool is the other side (flesh tone me hopes ;-).

Thanks, Jeff





From: Matthias Gutfeldt <tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 14:25
Subject: Re: How to Crumple!

Thanks for the instructions! The Art of Crumpling Paper- when will the
book come out? This is a fascinating subject. Besides some trees, squids
and -of course- mushrooms I haven't tried anything. I still have some of
that butcher's paper, it's about time I put it to good use.

Matthias





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 14:34
Subject: Re: Origami v Paper Folding

At 10:08 99/10/26 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm a little confused about something though: this is to David Lister: if
>origami didn't originate in Japan, where did it originate?

The short answer is that no one knows for sure. The records don't go back
far enough.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca





From: Scott Cramer <scram@LANDMARKNET.NET>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 14:36
Subject: Re: Bringing O. to Life / Other books

Christina wonders:

>Do I need Origami Sea Life RIGHT NOW ?

   What a silly question! Of course you need it. How you have survived
without it until now is a mystery. You can't call yourself a folder until
you have made a Blackdevil Angler or two- everyone else on the list can do
it from memory! Order it today, with next day delivery.

   Get O. for the Connoisseur while your at it, there are a few basics in
there, too.

Scott scram@landmarknet.net





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 14:47
Subject: The much meligned crane (was: QUESTION FOR MARC K.)

Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
> And the same is true for some origami models. I wouldn't say that reproducing
> the traditional crane is art, because it's neither complex nor allows for much
> artistic interpretation.

All right that it!  I've had it up to here with all this recent crane
bashing.  The fact it that despite the traditional cranes relatively
simple design, it is a real challenge to fold it in an esthetically
pleasing way.  The crane is open to a lot of artistic interpretation.
The angle of the neck, the sweep of the wings, the shape of tail, all
can be varied in ways that influence it's artistic appeal.  Even the
choice of paper is an important artistic decision.

Oh yeah, about the recent complaint that the crane has an ugly
sticky-out bit on the back.  Well, I'm here to say that if the back
sticks out your not folding it right!

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *         Save the            *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   *    Traditional Origami      *
420 Chipeta Way #120                *          crane.             *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 15:22
Subject: Re: QUESTION FOR MARC K.

On Tue, Oct 26, 1999 at 08:01:25AM +0200, Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
> I wouldn't say that reproducing the traditional crane is art, because
> it's neither complex nor allows for much artistic interpretation.

But when you start making crane flowers (see
http://www.papierfalten.de/en/conventions/hildesheim1999.html) or
sembazuru, or stuff like Robert Lang's second generation crane, it's
quickly on the verge of becoming art again ...

--
Yours, Sebastian <skirsch@t-online.de>

*** Dieses Schreiben wurde mit Hilfe einer Datenverarbeitungsanlage ***
*** erstellt und bedarf keiner Unterschrift.                        ***





From: Paul Jackson <Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 11:18
Subject: How to Crumple!

Here's the crumpling technique.

First -- and most important -- the correct paper must be used.
Anything below about or below 40gsm is OK (about the weight of airmail
paper), the thinner the better.  Crucially, the paper must pass what I
call the 'rattle test'. That is, when held and shaken about in the
air, the paper rattles loudly.  Paper which rattles will usually hold
a
crease well. So tissue paper, although thin enough and relatively easy
to find, doesn't usually pass this test.  The sheet needs to be pretty
big -- A3 is OK, but A2 is better (about 16 x 24in).  I use 25gsm
'Bible paper' (as paper merchants call it), made to print Bibles on.
I know Vincent Floderer uses a brown butchers' paper, used for
wrapping meat.  He even wet folds ('wet crumples'?) it!

So good paper found...

...crumple the sheet into a ball as tightly as possible, using some
strength.  Then ...crucially... don't wrench the paper open, but half
unpick it, evenly and gently, so that all the creases are kept and the
sheet is in relief (NOT FLATTENED), resembling the Himalayas.  Crumple
it tightly again.  Again, evenly and gently half unpick it to a
relief, retaining all the creases.  Repeat the crumpling/half
unpicking cycle maybe six times. Each time the sheet is unpicked, it
should be smaller than it was before, so that an A2 sheet eventually
shrinks into a densely crumpled sheet about the size of a postcard!
The more the sheet shrinks, the more 'surplus' is created, so the more
detail can be created later.  The aim is to fill the sheet with as
many crumples as it will hold, so that every crease remains fresh and
springy.  Too little crumpling and the sheet doesn't shrink much; too
much and the creases turn soft.  It takes practice to crumple just
the right amount!

Once the crumpled board has been made, there are at least three ways
forward.  The first is to stretch long, clean, knife-edged mountain
'ribs' though the crumples.  These creases don't lie flat, but create
beautiful, organic arch forms. The second is to press the board round
an object or over a relief, to create a cast of the subject beneath.
For those of you who like detail and representational accuracy (I
won't say 'realism')  this technique beats all other folding
techniques.

The third technique is one I haven't tried, but I think must be the
model making one used by Marc Kirschenbaum and Hermann van Goubergen,
mentioned earlier in this thread.  I presume it to begin with a
mapping out of where the sharp points of the final model would be on
the open sheet (OK, the crumpled sheet), then to scrunch up the
crumpled sheet while expanding specific crumpled areas in just the
right places, to create the 'base' for the model.  Further refinements
then create the detail.  At least, that's my guess.  Maybe Marc could
enlighten us further?

There are other crumpling patterns, such as making all the crumples
parallel, or radiating them from a point (or points) within the sheet
or from an edge/corner.

I hope this is clear.  If anyone tries creating with this technique,
I'd love to hear about or see the results.  I think the potential is
very exciting.

Paul Jackson





From: collin weber <coljwebwhs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 17:01
Subject: Re: Friend , not quite

>From: "Tommy Allen jr." <t__allen@GO.COM>
>Reply-To: Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Friend
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:00:17 -0700
>
>Hello Everyone!
>      I'm a male boy 15 years old live in Centre Pennsylvania and i am very
>talented w/origami.  I catch onto folds and diagrams quikly but I like
>folds that are easy and self explanatory.  Well I just joined Origami -1,
>and I am looking for some nice friends to talk to about Origami.  Anyone
>out there?
                           Tommy

Dont brag so much.  Can you even create your own origainal models?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Jakob Axelsson <kem97jan@STUDENT2.LU.SE>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 17:18
Subject: SV:      Re: Friend , not quite

Did you forget the :-)? If not, why this hostility?
/Jakob

----- Original Message -----
From: collin weber <coljwebwhs@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: Friend , not quite

> >From: "Tommy Allen jr." <t__allen@GO.COM>
> >Reply-To: Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> >To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> >Subject: Friend
> >Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:00:17 -0700
> >
> >Hello Everyone!
> >      I'm a male boy 15 years old live in Centre Pennsylvania and i am very
> >talented w/origami.  I catch onto folds and diagrams quikly but I like
> >folds that are easy and self explanatory.  Well I just joined Origami -1,
> >and I am looking for some nice friends to talk to about Origami.  Anyone
> >out there?
>                            Tommy
>
>
> Dont brag so much.  Can you even create your own origainal models?
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 17:20
Subject: Re: Friend , not quite

At 16:00 99/10/26 -0500, collin weber wrote:
>>      I'm a male boy 15 years old live in Centre Pennsylvania and i am very
>>talented w/origami.  I catch onto folds and diagrams quikly but I like
>>folds that are easy and self explanatory.  Well I just joined Origami -1,
>>and I am looking for some nice friends to talk to about Origami.  Anyone
>>out there?
>                           Tommy
>
>
>Dont brag so much.  Can you even create your own origainal models?

So much for nice...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca





From: DLister891@AOL.COM
Date: 26 Oct 1999 17:26
Subject: Re: Origami v Paper Folding

David Whitbeck wrote earlier today:

> I'm a little confused about something though: this is to David Lister: if
>  origami didn't originate in Japan, where did it originate?

We don't know. It may possibly have started in Japan, but there is not
evidence of this  and in the absence of evidence it is wrong to state
dogmatically (as so many dictionaries do) that paperfolding  originated in
Japan.

Paperfolding may have originated independently in different parts of the
world. On a factual basis, the evidence we have for recreational paperfolding
in Europe is as early as it is in Japan, and there was a long independent
tradition of paperfolding in Europe before influence from Japan began to
filter through in the second half of the 19th Century.

Paperfolding is as likely to have started in China as in Japan, but this is
just one more guess and once more, there is, again, no evidence.

This is not to say that the Japanese have not had a richer paperfolding
tradition than any other country. They certainly have, but we are talking not
of richnesses, but of origins.

David Lister.





From: DLister891@AOL.COM
Date: 26 Oct 1999 17:26
Subject: Re: Origami v Paper Folding (Nth posting)

David Mitchell wrote

> What I find curious here is not the use of the word origami but the use of
>  the word model. How do you model an abstract form? If it's an abstract form
>  it surely isn't a model of anything?

I don't know. Perhaps "model" is not the best term. But it has been used ever
since the early days of the BOS and it is perhaps pedantic to hold that an
abstract form should be called something else. What word would David Mitchell
use to cover the whole gamut of origami constructions?

>The words 'paper of any regular shape' are also extremely odd. Is a
> kite-shape regular, for instance? It has reflective symmetry but
otherwise........

It depends on what you mean by "regular"! Apart from this, it should be
remembered that in 1967, ideas about "Origami" were far more restricted than
today. The great emphasis was on square paper. The BOS was probably being
liberal in accepting triangular, hexagonal and octagonal paper as legitimate.
Lozenge- or diamond-shaped paper was occasionally used but kite-shaped paper
was probably beyond the pale!

>  It would also be interesting to know what David Lister makes of Oliver
>  Zachary's no-fold origami?

In 1967 any suggestion that no-fold origami could possibly exist would have
been met with blank stares! I'm not sure it doesn't today.

Now where was that joke?

David Lister





From: DLister891@AOL.COM
Date: 26 Oct 1999 17:40
Subject: Re: How to Crumple!

I
Matthias asks

>  The Art of Crumpling Paper- when will the  book come out?

It already has:

Gwen M. Paviere: Paper Twisting and Crumpling for Infants and Younger Juniors.

Published by Sir Arthur Pitman and Sons Ltd., London, 1947.

Price, Eight shillings and sixpence.

David Lister.





From: "David Walker (MSFDC-JV)" <v-davwa@MICROSOFT.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 17:41
Subject: Re: origami v paperfolding

David Lister Wrote:
        Why not indeed? (Except that I get a little irked by the invariable
parrot-like repetition by dictionaries attributing the origin of
paperfolding
to the Japanese!)

I agree, I always refer to origami as the "Asian art of paperfolding" made
popular by the Japanese.





From: Rachel Katz <mandrk@MAIL.PB.NET>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 19:16
Subject: Re: kusudama lotus

Valerie is correct, (no surprise here) the lotus is glued together. It is one
of the 100 diagrammed models on "100 Oriland Origami Originals" CD by Yurii
and Katrin Shumakovs.

Rachel Katz
Origami - it's not just for squares!





From: Dave Stephenson <EruditusD@AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 19:58
Subject: Re: Bringing O. to Life

In a message dated 26/10/99 19:14:21 GMT Daylight Time, tinan@ISICMAIL.COM
writes:

> Hi everybody,
>
>     Does anyone know if Bringing Origami to Life has come out??? Amazon
> Germany says it has, while amazon.com still has it on preorder... I'd be
> inclined to believe amazon.com, but maybe there's still hope:-))
>

Amazon Uk now says that the book is now available and it will take them about
a month to get it. I ordered it ages ago, could they not at least of had the
common decency to send me a copy before they ran out of stock :.( (

Dave-S





From: Faye Goldman <fayeg@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 20:00
Subject: Greater Phila Paper Folders Meeting

Greater Philadelphia Paper Folders
Meetings        When:   First Monday of the month
Time:   6:30-9:00pm,

November 1, 1999
December 13, 1999   <-  Note change to 2nd Monday

Awbury Arboretum Directions

>From the (76) expressway:
Lincoln Drive to W. Johnson St. (make a right)
W. Johnson St. past Germantown and right on Chew
The driveway to the Arboretum is between Walnut and High Streets.
Follow the driveway to the left.
We will be meeting in the main house.

Faye Goldman





From: Bob Stack <Noobob@AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 20:12
Subject: Re: The much meligned crane (was: QUESTION FOR MARC K.)

In a message dated 10/26/99 2:48:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU writes:

<< Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
 > And the same is true for some origami models. I wouldn't say that
reproducing
 > the traditional crane is art, because it's neither complex nor allows for
much
 > artistic interpretation.

 All right that it!  I've had it up to here with all this recent crane
 bashing.  The fact it that despite the traditional cranes relatively
 simple design, it is a real challenge to fold it in an esthetically
 pleasing way.  The crane is open to a lot of artistic interpretation.
 The angle of the neck, the sweep of the wings, the shape of tail, all
 can be varied in ways that influence it's artistic appeal.  Even the
 choice of paper is an important artistic decision.

 Oh yeah, about the recent complaint that the crane has an ugly
 sticky-out bit on the back.  Well, I'm here to say that if the back
 sticks out your not folding it right!

 --
 Kim Best                            ******************************* >>

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





From: Mike and/or Janet Hamilton <mikeinnj@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 20:39
Subject: Origami Sighting

In the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, Holiday 1999 catalog, page 15, the
traditional origami crane is being sold as a hanging ornament.  The cranes
appear to be folded from washi, with a crystal bead on the bottom and a gold
hanging cord.  The description reads, "Origami Peace Cranes.  Handcrafted
and enhanced with Austrian crystals.  Each bird folds flat for inclusion in
greeting cards.  Each is unique; let us select for you.  3" high. [562266]
$10.00 each.  Buy 3 for $27.00."

The catalog also shows how the cranes are sent flat in a plastic sleeve,
with a card that expains how to open the crane.

You can see a picture on the MFA web site at
http://st4.yahoo.com/mfa/562266.html, but the picture does not show the
crystal and cord.  The catalog picture is much better.

Janet Hamilton





From: "L. Hayashi" <lmh@COMPUSMART.AB.CA>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 21:04
Subject: Re: Bringing Origami to Life

Hi David,
Yes, I was fortunate enough to receive my copy last week.  It was from Chapters.
Lynda





From: Dale/ Amy Liikala <lmtn@NCWEB.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 21:42
Subject: Seen and Noted

New issue (Sept./Oct. 1999) of Dynamic Graphics magazine has on pg. 33,
"The Flying Fold"...included in an article entitled, "Invitations with a
Twist".  An invitation is folded into a "simplified swan"  that is "easy
enough even for those of us who are origami-challenged".  Page 62 has a
One Minute Workshop with diagrams.
        Amy





From: Dr Stephen O'Hanlon <fishgoth@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 21:44
Subject: New Models on my webpage

Hi all,

I've put the diagrams for three new two-tone models onto my web page.

First is an intermedate Sheep, complete with change colour head and legs.(3
pages)

Secondly is a high intermediate Giant Panda. (5 pages)

Thirdly is a complex Coelophysis, complete with white belly. This is a
triassic period dinosaur. (8 pages)

The first two are on the animals pages, the third is on the dinosaur page.

Enjoy, and if you fold them, do mail me to say you have done so!

Stephen

www.geocities.com/athens/academy/4800

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Eric Andersen <ema@NETSPACE.ORG>
Date: 26 Oct 1999 22:04
Subject: looking for a folder in Westchester County, NY

Hi all,
I got this message from Sari, asking if I knew anyone in the Westchester
County, NY area to teach (I assume) origami at a Bat Mitzvah. If anyone's
interested, contact her directly, not via the list. Her email address is
<sing345305@aol.com>.

-Eric :-P
origami@netspace.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:04:54 -0400

Who_Am_I = not a
How_I_Found_It = from Yahoo
Favorite_Section = My Work
New_Section = money folding
Name = Sari
Email = sing345305@aol.com
Message = Hi Eric
Would you happen to know of a good origami artist
who would come to show his/her craft at a Bat
Mitzva party? We are located in Westchester
county in NY (about 1 hour ride from NYC).
Thank you for your reply.
Sari





From: Marc Kirschenbaum <marckrsh@PIPELINE.COM>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 00:26
Subject: Why diagram? (was Re: QUESTION FOR MARC K.)

At 11:15 PM 10/25/99 -0700, david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>  wrote:

>The same could be asked to you Marc: why do you diagram?

To take a taste of my own medicine, it is only fair I can answer my own
question. I alluded to the answer in a previos posting when I explained how
diagramming helps protect my creative investment. Some models can take
months to develop, and it would make me feel uncomfortable to give up the
level of imortality provided through notating the process.

This only explains why I make my own personal diagrams, and has nothing to
do with the nicer diagrams I make available for publication. When I was
younger, I was excited aout seeing how other people would interpret my
work. I did not think I was very good at folding, and I was excited about
seeing my works interpreted by a master artist. As much as I hate to say
it, when I see my work folded by other people, it usually seems t ofall
short of my expectations. My own folding has since improved, and my
standards are higher. Nonetheless, I have heard that some of the better
folders have tried my works; I just have not seen the results. It is nice
to hear my efforts are being appreciated, so it gives me a reason to keep
on slaving at the drawing board (or I guess computer screen, in my case).

I mentioned that I diagram some other peoples work as well. I feel like a
catalys when I make some previosly unknown works come to life. My favorite
effort is to reverse engineer the works of origami masters who are not
around anymore to share their efforts (examples can be found in the
OrigamiUSA Annual Collections). It is also kind of fun for me to figure out
folding sequences for otherwise "dead" models.

Marc

http://marckrsh.home.pipeline.com





From: Marc Kirschenbaum <marckrsh@PIPELINE.COM>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 00:32
Subject: Re: Crumpling

At 10:50 AM 10/26/99 +0100, Paul Jackson <Mpjackson@BTINTERNET.COM> wrote:

>I was VERY excited by the possibilities that Hermann had opened up,
>but disappointed (and I confess, a little annoyed) when he dismissed
>it as 'too easy'.  He later created an equally impressive beetle, but
>I don't think he has since returned to crumpling.

I have to admit I share Herman's feelings on the matter. Then again, I have
never crumpled for stricly artistic purposes, rather just as a means to an
artstic end. My work tends to be devoid of detail, so just focusing on
structure and form is as far as I want to go.

Thanks Paul for your description on crumpling. For serious crumpling
efforts, I like to use aluminium foil backed with tissue paper. This is
very strong, and to your specifications, even has a high pitched sound when
tugged upon. Also, after a lot of folding and unfolding, kami paper gets
very soft and structures can easily be slid and crumpled into place. As you
suspected, I pinch major appendages first, and work around that.

Marc

http://marckrsh.home.pipeline.com





From: Matthias Gutfeldt <tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 02:24
Subject: Re: Friend , not quite

>===== Original Message From Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> =====
>Dont brag so much.  Can you even create your own origainal models?

Why, are you afraid he might be better than you?

Matthias, only very slightly annoyed, and hoping it doesn't show because old
farts are supposed to be nice to greenhorns





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 02:30
Subject: Re: Batman Paper.

On Tue, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:00:13AM -0400, Jeff Kerwood wrote:
> I am wanting to fold a Batman mask. The model I will be folding needs to be
> from wet foldable duo (flesh tone and black of course). I have some flesh
> tone wet foldable paper but I can't fathom a good way to make one side
> black.

a) indian ink (should be reasonably waterproof)

b) cloth dye (not as waterproof)

c) my favourite solution: Folding two pieces of paper as one.

See http://home.t-online.de/home/skirsch/FKawahata-Yoda.html for an
example of two pieces of paper being folded as one. You don't need to
attach the two sheets in any way; simply lay one on top of the other and
start to fold.

--
Yours, Sebastian <skirsch@t-online.de>

*** Dieses Schreiben wurde mit Hilfe einer Datenverarbeitungsanlage ***
*** erstellt und bedarf keiner Unterschrift.                        ***





From: Elaina Quackenbush <elaina_quackenbush@NETZERO.NET>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 02:55
Subject: Re: SV:      Re: Friend , not quite

Wow.  Well hi there Tommy from the Lone Star State.  I'm not old enough to be
     completely
jaded yet, but young enough that this thread amazed me.  Don't sweat it, and
     enjoy the list.
There is a lot everyone can teach you about all this and a lot of helpful hints
     (by others, oh
please ask others! Ask me and you'll get a "huh?").

El

Download the Lycos Browser at http://lycos.neoplanet.com

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html





From: Elaina Quackenbush <elaina_quackenbush@NETZERO.NET>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 03:04
Subject: Re: The much meligned crane (was: QUESTION FOR MARC K.)

 I realize that many of the people here are far better than I am, or will
     probably be, but isn't
the joy of folding supposed to encompass the simplicity?

And isn't the crane an international sign of peace?

El

Download the Lycos Browser at http://lycos.neoplanet.com

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html





From: Andrew Daw <andrewd@REDAC.CO.UK>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 03:44
Subject: Re: The much maligned crane (was: QUESTION FOR MARC K.)

> Oh yeah, about the recent complaint that the crane has an ugly
> sticky-out bit on the back.  Well, I'm here to say that if the back
> sticks out your not folding it right!

If you are talking about the Hunchback of Notre Crane then yes, but there
are four other sticky out bits on the back too. I'll not ask what you want
done with them ;O)

Sticky out bits stick out, don't they ? :O)





From: Mark Plant <mplant@UK.ORACLE.COM>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 04:23
Subject: Re: those intersecting tetrahedrons again

Jennifer

I have made this model successfully with foil and also with KraftSkin paper, and
there is no need for glue.

Ordinary kami paper may be a bit flimsy, so I would go for something a bit
heavier.

I also found that as I gained experience in building the model, I could
successfully use smaller and smaller sheets. My latest example is about 2 inches
in diameter.

Mark

Jennifer Campbell wrote:

> Hello those who fold Tom Hull's 5 Intersecting Polyhedra,
> All the discussion these days about this model has prompted me to give it a
> try. I always did have it bookmarked, but now I am folding it. What I
> confess to is the need for glue :-(
> I am using regular packaged "kami" paper and I find it just too springy and
> shiny to hold together, even when a tetrahedron is fully formed. The edge
> tabs want to slide out even though the lock is firm. The tetrahedron seems
> precarious without glue. Has anyone else had this problem? My consolation is
> that, once I get this thing done (?!) it will have to withstand a lot of
> handling, so I can forgive myself for making it more durable? And as always,
> I'm only willing to glue if the model could stand without it (well that, and
> attaching heads to dragons...)
>
> Jennifer Campbell.





From: Matthias Gutfeldt <tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 04:30
Subject: Re: The much meligned crane (was: QUESTION FOR MARC K.)

>===== Original Message From Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> =====
>All right that it!  I've had it up to here with all this recent crane
>bashing.  The fact it that despite the traditional cranes relatively
>simple design, it is a real challenge to fold it in an esthetically
>pleasing way.  The crane is open to a lot of artistic interpretation.
>The angle of the neck, the sweep of the wings, the shape of tail, all
>can be varied in ways that influence it's artistic appeal.  Even the
>choice of paper is an important artistic decision.

Whoah. Now I'm accused of crane-bashing. Well, you got it all wrong, I am NOT
crane-bashing. I'm merely stating the obvious: Reproducing the crane is
neither technically nor artistically challenging. You're not questioning the
first, but only the second. My opinion is that it takes something more
substantial than changing some angles and sweeping some wings to make an
artistic statement.

But does that somehow take away from the qualities of the crane? I don't think
so. As I wrote in response to a private mail of a similar nature, the crane is
a miracle to me. Its simplicity is fascinating, and it has an inspiring
folding sequence. The petal fold is one of the most exciting origami moves I
have ever seen.

Matthias





From: Anine Cleve <anine20@USA.NET>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 05:06
Subject: Re: [Re: QUESTION FOR MARC K.]

>But when you start making crane flowers (see
>http://www.papierfalten.de/en/conventions/hildesheim1999.html) or

The link didn't work! What is the correct URL?

Anine

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