




From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 18:10
Subject: Re: dream origami

Kelly Dunn wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/23/99 10:54:06 PM, dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU writes:
>
> << I had a strange dream.  I was folding the devil from Viva Origami (a book
> that I don't have, and I haven't folded the devil before) and when I
> finished it, it clawed up my face and ran away!  So watch out when you fold
> devils. >>
>
> Wow, that sounds scary! Now, I wonder ....will you try to fold the devil from
> Viva Origami? Or, are you too scared?

Accually, you'd be better off folding the devil from the second issue of
JOAS.  The diagrams are easier to understand, and it has those cute
lookin ears coming out of the shoulders.  Here I have been searching
through all those layers looking for the ear, and they were hidden in
the wings all a long!

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *          Origamist:         *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Some one who thinks paper   *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * thin, means thick and bulky *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: collin weber <coljwebwhs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 18:35
Subject: Re: Under 20

>From: Ian McRobbie <Ourldypeac@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: Under 20
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:47 EDT
>
>I am under 20 years old.  I will turn 15 on October 1st.

Hey!! I'm 15 years old right now.  It is like to know that there is someone
my age on the net.  How long have you been folding?  Keep in touch.  Where
do you live?

Thanks
Collin Weber

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: collin weber <coljwebwhs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 19:16
Subject: origami chat room

Does anyone know of an origami chat room .  I think that it would be a good
place to communicate.  We could have a specific time when we can meet there
and talk.  I think it would be fun.

Thanks
Collin

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Papa Joe <papajoe@CHORUS.NET>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 19:28
Subject: Re: origami chat room

From: collin weber <coljwebwhs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: origami chat room

> Does anyone know of an origami chat room .  I think that it would be a
good
> place to communicate.  We could have a specific time when we can meet
> there and talk.  I think it would be fun.
>
> Thanks
> Collin

Here is a URL for one
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/paperwonders





From: John Sutter <sutterj@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 19:39
Subject: Re: dream origami

Greetings,

I had a similar scary dream about folding origami models
that were like those toys called transformers which turned
themselves into origami monsters that chased after me in
the streets.  They kept unfolding and folding into different
things.  Maybe it's time to take a break from the origami, Dave!

Ria





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 20:15
Subject: Re: dream origami

Doug Philips wrote:
>

> Tsk, Tsk, Kim! Had you only bothered to look in the archives, you could have
> found several messages about that model, including at least one that explained
> where the "ears" came from, and that they are really not ears, but shoulderish
> horns. ;-)
>

Hey! you do me wrong!  I did follow the thread on the demon ear.  I just
never could make heads or tails, (or ears for that matter) out of what
they were talking about.  When I first folded the new diagrams I shouted
"Foul!  Those ears never where in the original demon!"  It was only
after pulling out an old demon I folded, and pushing around in the wing
area that I realised I could form the flaps for the ears/horns.

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *          Origamist:         *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Some one who thinks paper   *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * thin, means thick and bulky *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 21:37
Subject: Re: dream origami

Kim Best indited:

+Accually, you'd be better off folding the devil from the second issue of
+JOAS.  The diagrams are easier to understand, and it has those cute
+lookin ears coming out of the shoulders.  Here I have been searching
+through all those layers looking for the ear, and they were hidden in
+the wings all a long!

Tsk, Tsk, Kim! Had you only bothered to look in the archives, you could have
found several messages about that model, including at least one that explained
where the "ears" came from, and that they are really not ears, but shoulderish
horns. ;-)

You are right, however, that it would be easier to fold from those diagrams. I
note that they are done by KOMATSU Hideo, one of my favorite creators. I can't
say I've folded from them (yet), but based on reputation I'd expect them to be
good diagrams.

-D'gou





From: Isa Miller <-isa-@EXCITE.COM>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 22:45
Subject: Re: [NO] Borders is a skurj

On         Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:00:15 -0400, Scott Cramer wrote:

> Isa wrote:
>
>  >With 75% of what I buy, that will be the large chain because what I
> >can get there is adequate.
> >
> >However, in the other 25% come things that are special to me.
>
>     But if you spend $75 of every hundred at the mass merchandiser, how
long
> do you think Little Niche Bookstore can hang on? The so-called 'Big Box'
> stores, while employing a good number of very low wage people, send your
> hard-earned dollars on to corporate headquarters, not into your local
> economy.

I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing. <ducking>

You can lament the demise of the small town and the small town shops all you
like, but....
1) I grew up in a small town. People there are POOR.
The big chains may pay a low wage compared to large towns, but I guarantee
it is more than you can get elsewhere. Also you have the added benefits of
health insurance and retirement plans.
2) The large chains bring variety. And competition. And open the world to
the people in that town.
3) Working at a large chain not only gives you marketable skills, it also
gives you the opportunity for advancement and a chance to move around the
country if that is what you want.
4) The extended hours of a large store allows you to work and attend school.
You can't do that working for a small store.

I'm not saying it's all wine and roses. But given the choice between a town
with only local stores and a town with local stores and chain stores, I will
take the later.

Just for example---some of the things I would never have experienced without
the large stores:

origami
latte
many, many of my favorite music CDs
the internet
Chinese rugs
leather chairs
frozen yogurt

etc., etc., etc.

Think about it.

Isa

________________________________________________________________
Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com





From: P Bailey <pbailey@OPENCOMINC.COM>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 22:53
Subject: Re: Dibbiks

Joseph Wu wrote:

> Dibbiks (dibbicks? dibbuks? dibbucks?) are little creatures/demons/gremlins
> (I'm not sure which) that like to hide in corners or angles. They are from
> Jewish folklore, I think. They don't like things that swing back and forth,
> so prayer shawls are made with tassels on the ends to drive them away. They
> came in when someone (I forget who) talked about making angles for Maekawa's
> demon (he calls it "devil") to live in.

Does this mean some where hidden away stashed in a quiet corner that
Joseph has folded a Dibbik??  If so is there a picture??

Thank you Joseph,

Perry
--
"Each time he shifted gears he did it as if the Moment of Truth
had arrived in a bullfight"
H. Allen Smith "The Pig in the Barber Shop"

http://www.afgsoft.com/perry/           <--Website w/ diagrams!
Icq 23622644





From: Julia Palffy <jupalffy@BLUEWIN.CH>
Date: 24 Sep 1999 23:17
Subject: Dibbiks

Joseph Wu wrote:
Actually, that's an interesting question: are dibbiks (sp?) actually considered
     demons? Is the reverse also true?

What are dibbiks??? I didn't see them come in...

Julia Palffy
Zug, Switzerland
jupalffy@bluewin.ch





From: Robby/Laura <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 00:15
Subject: Re: over 80

Thoki,
At 02.32 24/9/1999 +0200, you wrote:
>Am I the only one over 80

Don't say that ! Just say " a little over 20 (four times)".....

Roberto





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 00:32
Subject: Re: dream origami

Kim,

+Hey! you do me wrong!  I did follow the thread on the demon ear.  I just
+never could make heads or tails, (or ears for that matter) out of what
+they were talking about.

Sorry Kim, I really didn't mean to pick on you, I should have used more
smileys. ;-)

-D'gou

----Begin Archive Extracts----
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 21:08:56 -0300 (ADT)
From: jdharris@post.cis.smu.edu (Jerry D. Harris)
Subject: Re: Jun Maekawa

>Count me in as one of those people - how DO you form the shoulder horns?
>Any help would be greatly appreciated!

         If you've got the _Viva! Origami_ volume, you can see that on the
first page of the diagrams for the "Demon" (p. 159) there is a folding map
for the whole model.  There are two red-shaded squares (or diamonds,
depending on your perspective) shown, but the rest of the diagrammed
folding method does not put the diamond shaped folds in those squares.
Those are where the shoulder spikes come from -- putting the diamond shapes
in those squares is really rather easy when you have to unfold the model
anyway in step 29.  However, don't try and collapse the diamonds in step 30
-- I usually wait until I get to step 42 or 43 before I gently pull apart
the layers of the wing and recollapse the paper to form the point that can
be reverse-folded up to form the shoulder spike.

         Hope that helps a little...

Jerry D. Harris                       (214) 768-2750

[.signature elided. -dwp]

-----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 16:56:34 -0300 (ADT)
From: hull@MATH.URI.EDU
Subject: Re: Jun Maekawa

Ya!

On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Charles Knuffke wrote:
> Count me in as one of those people - how DO you form the shoulder horns?
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Having been postponed again, I'm arriving a bit late, so please
forgive me if this information is redundant.

One clear way of making sure you get the shoulder horns, regardless
of which diagrams you have, is to use the crease pattern instead!
Even in the Viva diagrams, if you, say, use the first steps of the
model to get the initial proportions, and then scrap the diagrams
and just use the lovely crease pattern to make the necessary
creases, then carefully collapse the whole thing, you'll be sure
to get the extra flaps you need for the shoulder horns.  In fact,
the regions of paper highlighted in *pink* on the crease pattern
indicate where the shoulder horns come from, and I'd be willing to
bet money that the Japanese text explains that these extra creases
will have to be made if you want shoulder horns.

ALTHOUGH, you gotta admit that these are most likely not shoulder
horns!  If you look at the text accompanying the last step of the
diagrams, there are arrows pointing to the wings, with dotted x-ray
lines, which seem to indicate that the layers inside can be used
to make something. (Like shoulder horns!)  At the base of these arrows
is a single kanji (sp?) Japanese character.  I too thought
that these were shoulder horns, until Courtney Spooner pointed
out to me that in all likelyhood, Japanese does NOT have a single
kanji character for "shoulder horns".  "Ears" would be a better guess,
wouldn't you think?

--- Tom "form of an icepick" Hull
     hull@math.uri.edu

----End Archive Extracts----





From: Robby/Laura <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 00:40
Subject: Re: Modular origami AND [NO] Borders

Martha,
At 18.24 23/9/1999 -0500, you wrote:

>A folder, I believe he was Italian, has designed a set of Leggo folds which
>I say displayed at the British Origami Society's 25th Anniversary
>Convention in London in 1992.  They were fabulous!  The picture I took
>which I have just dug out to refresh my memory shows that he designed one
>to four peg units, wheel units, and units to construct a train and people
>figures.  He had some rough diagrams for one or two pieces, but as far as I
>know they have never been published anywhere.  Does anyone know his name
>and if any of the diagrams have been published?

Pasquale D'Auria, a very talented folder who lives in the South of Italy.
His "Lego" pieces came after a very long list of models reproducing
everyday objects like computer keyboards, fully-featured typewriters, photo
cameras, traffic light, headphones, spectacles, television,...... Most have
been published in CDO magazines (Quadrato Magico) and CDO Convention Books,
plus a booklet entirely devoted to his models.

Pasquale is also a witty and lovable person, one of the very "souls" of
Italian Conventions.

Roberto





From: Kenny1414@AOL.COM
Date: 25 Sep 1999 03:15
Subject: [NO] Re: Dibbiks

In a message dated 9/24/1999 5:39:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Joseph Wu  writes:

> Dibbiks (dibbicks? dibbuks? dibbucks?) are little creatures/demons/gremlins
>  (I'm not sure which) that like to hide in corners or angles. They are from
>  Jewish folklore, I think. They don't like things that swing back and forth,
>  so prayer shawls are made with tassels on the ends to drive them away. They
>  came in when someone (I forget who) talked about making angles for
Maekawa's
>  demon (he calls it "devil") to live in.

I think I've seen this spelled dybbuks.

In a message dated 9/24/1999 11:56:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Katherine J. Meyer wrote:

> That's funny. We were just talking about that devil at a recent Chat, I
said
> I  thought it would be scary to have that model around and Tommy
> suggested to  fold  some angles to place next to the demon.

I assumed she meant angels, to either act as wards or just to counterbalance
Maekawa's Devil. I missed the dybbuk possibility. I did wonder why she didn't
simply suggest placing the devil within an inscribed pentagram, but then,
that isn't an origami solution, and, depending on which author you hear it
from, a simple pentagram, without proper chants, candles, inscriptions, etc.
may not be effective in holding a devil.

The dybbuk reminds me of the "Hound of Tindalos", from the H. P. Lovecraft
et al horror Mythos, which, I think, travels inter-dimensionally, and only
appears out of corners of rooms.

Aloha,
Kenneth M. Kawamura





From: Kenny1414@AOL.COM
Date: 25 Sep 1999 03:15
Subject: Re: origami chat room

In a message dated 9/24/1999 8:34:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
papajoe writes:

> From: collin weber
<snip>
>  Subject: origami chat room
>
>  > Does anyone know of an origami chat room .
<snip>
>
>  Here is a URL for one
>  http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/paperwonders
>

And, from that chatroom:

> Founder's Message
> Welcome Fellow Folders, This club is dedicated to
> origami enthusiasts everywhere. Origami Talk has
> been looking for a better forum in which to chat...
> I think we have found it. Chats are held here on
> Tuesday nights at 8:00PM CST. Please join us...
> ALL ARE WELCOME!

Note the day and time for the regularly scheduled chat.
There is also a eurochat in that room on another day
and time, I think, but I didn't find the details, sorry.

Hope that helps.

Aloha,
Kenneth M. Kawamura





From: Mark Morden <marmonk@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 09:47
Subject: Dampening paper for wet folding ( was RE: moisture distortion)

>Informal origami list survey for wet folders:
>        Do you cut your paper square before dampening or after?

After dampening. Michael LaFosse does it before.

>        (and does anyone know which way Yoshizawa does it?)

Before.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca

[Mark Morden]
I will expound further on this subject.  At ORCA, Michael LaFosse taught a
     wonderful class on wet folding.  We used a Yoshizawa dog model as our
     subject.  We also wet-folded Michael's "Cormorant" model one evening.
     Michael's, and I believe Yoshizawa's, m

During the "dog class," we learned how to backcoat paper with methyl cellulose.
     For that model we dampened the whole paper at once to wet fold.  Michael
     explained that the glue and the two layers of paper would keep the paper
     square and not require retri

As one who used to dampen the paper and then resquare it, I enjoy the one
     crease at a time method.  There is less "stress" to fold before the paper
     dries out and more control over the whole process.  It is easier to
     control the moisture content of the pap

One last note:  I have always used a sponge to wet papers.  Michael explained
     that Yoshizawa uses a damp towel, and I have seen pictures in a book
     showing Yoshizawa doing this.  For reasons I can't really explain, I have
     found the towel preferable to the

There's my 3 1/2 cents worth.

Mark Morden == marmonk@mail.eskimo.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~marmonk/
--------------------------------------------------------
There is love in the red letters
There is truth in the red letters
There is hope for the hopeless
Peace and forgiveness
There is life in the red letters
                dcTalk, "Red Letters"





From: "Katherine J. Meyer" <kathy@SILENTWORLD.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 10:17
Subject: Re: [NO] Re: Dibbiks

Thanks Kenny, yes I did mean Angels (not angles) oops what a difference a letter
makes. Anyway it did create an interesting thread about Dibbiks/Dybbuks.

Kathy  <*))))><

Kenny1414@AOL.COM wrote:

> I assumed she meant angels, to either act as wards or just to counterbalance
> Maekawa's Devil.





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 11:09
Subject: Re: Dampening paper for wet folding ( was RE: moisture distortion)

At 14:00 99/09/25 -0400, you wrote:
>Oh, and just a side question. I am NOT one to doubt cause I really know
>nothing, but what I have heard is that Yoshizawa (or actually his wife ;-)
>dampens his paper by layering it between damp towels and putting all of
>that into a plastic bag over-night. Just what I've heard so wondering....
>maybe he does both....?

He does things differently depending on the model, on the paper, etc. I've
seen him wet by crease, wet overall with a damp cloth, wet overall with an
atomizer (spray bottle), and also by sandwiching the paper between damp cloths.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 13:37
Subject: Re: Dampening paper for wet folding ( was RE: moisture distortion)

Well I thought I'd thrown my bad way for wetfolding.  I keep the paper
mildly moist, which means that it will dry quickly.  I use a spray bottle
when I wetfold, and I open up the model and lightly spray then recollapse
it.  I also have a towel to brush the paper with until it's just right if I
accidently get it too wet.  I'll have to try wetfolding by crease method,
that sounds great!  I have no trouble with opening and recollapsing it
because I'm only making the paper soft not wet so it will keep to its
creases.  Here's a question: roughly how many people on this list wetfold
if anyone can guestimate?

David





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 14:00
Subject: Re: Dampening paper for wet folding ( was RE: moisture distortion)

> [Mark Morden]
> [snip}
> So if one is folding a water bomb base, the diagonals
> of the paper would be dampened, and the folded.
> Then the mid-lines of the paper would be dampened
> and folded and the paper collapsed into the base.

Well, that all makes sense to me. But having not done a lot of wet folding
there is one thing I don't understand. When you dampen crease by crease
what do you do when there are multiple layers of paper where you are
wanting to make the crease? How do you get the inner layers dampened? This
has been a problem for me when, after a model has been wet folded and
dried, I've wanted to redampen a feature and reshape it. How do you get the
inner layers moist again? I've used small brushes but that has proven only
moderately satisfactory.

> Michael's, and I believe Yoshizawa's, method
> for wet folding is to start with a dry square.
> The paper is dampened crease by crease,

Oh, and just a side question. I am NOT one to doubt cause I really know
nothing, but what I have heard is that Yoshizawa (or actually his wife ;-)
dampens his paper by layering it between damp towels and putting all of
that into a plastic bag over-night. Just what I've heard so wondering....
maybe he does both....?

Thanks,
Jeff Kerwood





From: Thoki Yenn <thok@THOK.DK>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 15:55
Subject: Sv:      Re: Dibbiks

I, the Great and Glorious Kalmon of the North
is delighted that this thread was opened
It gives me an "upper tunity" to come
blazing out of my corner
blowing my trombone again.

I you want to fold a good corner
for your private daimonions, demons, gremlins, hobgoblins,
leprecaurns, devils or angels, to hide in or come out from,
have a look at http://www.thok.dk/dibbiks.html
and if you are a reader, read more about
Dibbiks at http://www.thok.dk/hexcorn.html
Thank you all for your patience

Yours truly

Kalmon, cousin to the everything that goes bump in the night.





From: Douglas Zander <dzander@SOLARIA.SOL.NET>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 18:00
Subject: Re: dream origami

>
> At 10:59 99/09/24 -0500, you wrote:
> >That's funny. We were just talking about that devil at a recent Chat, I said
     I
> >thought it would be scary to have that model around and Tommy suggested to
> >fold some angles to place next to the demon.
>
> So then we'll also need some tassels to drive them away. Actually, that's an
> interesting question: are dibbiks (sp?) actually considered demons? Is the
> reverse also true?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
> t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
> w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca
>

when I first read the original post I thought maybe the person meant
"...fold some angels to place next to the demon."  like maybe it was
just spelled wrong.  I would prefer to fold some angels to counteract
the bad spell of the demon and to fight the demon and keep it away
from me.  :-)

--
 Douglas Zander                |
 dzander@solaria.sol.net       |
 Shorewood, Wisconsin, USA     |





From: Howard Portugal <howardp@FAST.NET>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 18:06
Subject: Re: [NO] Borders is a skurj

I enjoy going to the chain stores. They have a good selection, good prices,
etc.

Soon I'm moving to a tiny unincorporated town where there are no chain
stores because I want to get away from people. I hate living in an area
where you stare in your neighbor's window because your homes are on tiny 1/8
acre lots. You know what though? I'm going to travel to the larger towns in
the area to go to the chain stores. The small local stores (grocery, book,
greeting card, stationers, etc.) just cannot match what the chains provide.
Small bookstores are cool to go into and browse, but most often their prices
are significantly higher than the chains due to the chain's discounting and,
the selection is not as good. I agree that there are some specialty
publications that may not be available at the chain stores, but my tastes
don't run towards books and other publications that I cannot get at Borders
et. al. (with the exception of certain Origami books of course which I can
get on line, or through OUSA).

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Origami Mailing List [mailto:Origami@MIT.Edu]On Behalf Of Isa
Miller
Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 10:45 PM
To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [NO] Borders is a skurj

On         Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:00:15 -0400, Scott Cramer wrote:

> Isa wrote:
>
>  >With 75% of what I buy, that will be the large chain because what I
> >can get there is adequate.
> >
> >However, in the other 25% come things that are special to me.
>
>     But if you spend $75 of every hundred at the mass merchandiser, how
long
> do you think Little Niche Bookstore can hang on? The so-called 'Big Box'
> stores, while employing a good number of very low wage people, send your
> hard-earned dollars on to corporate headquarters, not into your local
> economy.

I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing. <ducking>

You can lament the demise of the small town and the small town shops all you
like, but....
1) I grew up in a small town. People there are POOR.
The big chains may pay a low wage compared to large towns, but I guarantee
it is more than you can get elsewhere. Also you have the added benefits of
health insurance and retirement plans.
2) The large chains bring variety. And competition. And open the world to
the people in that town.
3) Working at a large chain not only gives you marketable skills, it also
gives you the opportunity for advancement and a chance to move around the
country if that is what you want.
4) The extended hours of a large store allows you to work and attend school.
You can't do that working for a small store.

I'm not saying it's all wine and roses. But given the choice between a town
with only local stores and a town with local stores and chain stores, I will
take the later.

Just for example---some of the things I would never have experienced without
the large stores:

origami
latte
many, many of my favorite music CDs
the internet
Chinese rugs
leather chairs
frozen yogurt

etc., etc., etc.

Think about it.

Isa

________________________________________________________________
Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 19:19
Subject: Re: [NO] Borders is a skurj

>I enjoy going to the chain stores. They have a good selection, good prices,
>etc.
>
>Soon I'm moving to a tiny unincorporated town where there are no chain
>stores because I want to get away from people. I hate living in an area
>where you stare in your neighbor's window because your homes are on tiny 1/8
>acre lots. You know what though? I'm going to travel to the larger towns in
>the area to go to the chain stores. The small local stores (grocery, book,
>greeting card, stationers, etc.) just cannot match what the chains provide.
>Small bookstores are cool to go into and browse, but most often their prices
>are significantly higher than the chains due to the chain's discounting and,
>the selection is not as good. I agree that there are some specialty
>publications that may not be available at the chain stores, but my tastes
>don't run towards books and other publications that I cannot get at Borders
>et. al. (with the exception of certain Origami books of course which I can
>get on line, or through OUSA).
>
>Howard
>

Wo there, the discounts are only on new releases and bestsellers.  That
means almost all the books don't have discounts, they're at the same price.
Also I've found that the independent bookstores carry about the same
titles in ordinary sections like fiction.  Now for amount of books,
selection is not really true.  Take B. Daltons and Waldenbooks they're so
small you can't find squat and they're chain stores (and yes I know they're
owned by Borders and B&N).  Many independent bookstores are close to what
Borders and B&N have, but what's better is many used bookstores can beat
Borders in selection for half the price.  Now I might add that used
bookstores are my favorite.  You want a discount, buying any hardcover
under ten dollars that doesn't even look touched is what I'm talking about!
I'm just a poor student so I can't understand people that go only to
Borders, etc. and go in get a pile of books and fork out 50-100, it's just
absurd when you can use the library and used bookstores to get the same
books.  I also don't understand people who want the book right now and
don't want to wait a couple of days to order it or reserve it at the
library.  That sounds to me more like impulse buying.  Because if you
really wanted it you could wait awhile and still want it, and it's not
necessary or important to have it immediately if it's just for
entertainment.

//////////////

But let's consider this whole thread: how many of us actively shop for
books for it to matter that much what bookstores we go to?  When you think
of it it only takes a few books to buy before you've got enough reading
material to not warrant you coming back for awhile.  What I'm driving at is
how unimportant this thread really is to us and what a waste of bandwidth
it is to have this on an origami email list.  I must apologize for bringing
it up and my continuous replies that have dragged through this list.  My
reason is my anger at how I've been treated at Borders it has driven me on
to vent and vent I'm sure most of you don't care that much and I've said
my say, in fact too often, it's pretty clear at how the other opinionated
people on the list have had to say on this topic so let's just end this.
There is nothing else to be said that will convince anyone in any direction
and I'm dreadfully sorry for creating this whole mess, and since it's so
one way or another issue it dragged in many people to adamently argue their
p.o.v. but the same things are being said on both sides and from experience
of annoying people on this list I know there has to be many people who
really want this to end.

I don't think liking or disliking megastores matter too much because
they'll live and so will independent bookstores.  They're simply not
popular enough to drive out the independent bookstores.  What we have no is
good we don't have a chain with a monopoly on the market and we don't have
all isolated stores.

Sincerely,

David Whitbeck





From: david whitbeck <dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 21:02
Subject: Re: Origami Calendar 2000 : a criticism

This is great!  Now I know that the paper is not square and the diagrams
don't make sense!  Now I just need someone to tell me that they put on the
dates wrong and there would be no reason to get it or give it!

David





From: Douglas Zander <dzander@SOLARIA.SOL.NET>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 22:38
Subject: Origami Calendar 2000 : a criticism

I recently bought the "Easy Origami Calendar 2000" compiled by Margaret Van
Sicklen.  I was planning on giving it away as a Christmas present to a
non-folder.  I was thumbing through it and I could not believe my eyes!
I wish to ask those who bought the calendar if they actually looked at
some of the diagrams.  They are atrocious!  For example look at page
[Monday, January 17th]; what is the meaning of the two folds in step
number two?  [Friday, Febuary 18th] does not explain to unfold the paper
between step one and step two.  Looking at the other days I find minor
errors and weird mistakes.  Now I know that in a way, I am simply nitpicking,
I am an experienced folder and fold complex and higher folds (technical
folding); but I wonder if a non-folder or beginner would be able to make
sense of some of these diagrams.  The reason I am nitpicking is because
I am under the assumption that this calendar is meant for beginners or to
introduce others to the world of Origami.  Yet, I believe that an
introductory material *must* be as highly accurate as possible so as not to
confuse the beginner and discourage him/her.  An introductory material
cannot afford to show the world of origami as a sloppy, disorganized,
hobby.  What do others think?  Am I over-reacting?  :-)
I applaud the idea of an Origami calendar, anything showing origami in a
positive light helps to spread the hobby.

--
 Douglas Zander                |
 dzander@solaria.sol.net       |
 Shorewood, Wisconsin, USA     |





From: "Michael J. Naughton" <mjnaught@CROCKER.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 22:57
Subject: Re: Modular Origami AND [NO] Borders

david whitbeck wrote:
> . . .
> More importantly I should not have attacked and ridiculed those people that
> fold Modular Polyhedra.  I wasn't thinking beyond the scope of my opinion,
> I was being rude and I was being mean.  . . .
> . . .  But there's no excuse for offending the people on the list and
> insulting them. . . .

Don't worry on my account. I'm principally interested in modulars, so I
suppose I might have been the "target" of your opinions, but quite frankly
(and not to be offensive myself) I rarely pay much attention to people who
make sweeping generalizations about things they don't seem to know much
about ;-)

> Speaking of which, a friend of mine when seeing some of the boxes that I've
> folded asked me if anyone folded units and sold them so that someone could
> buy a package and assemble them into polyhedra, boxes, etc.  So I ask the
> people on this list if it has been done.

I've never seen such a thing, and I'm not sure what the point would be.
With the Sonobe module in particular, construction of the actual module is
(to me) much simpler than building the models, and making them yourself allows
full choice of size, color, etc. (aren't you the one who advocated "individual
choice" over "mass produced uniformity"? ;-) )  Anyone who was likely to enjoy
putting the modules together could certainly handle making them, and providing
a set of pre-folded modules in sufficient quantity at a reasonable price would
probably require fairly low-wage folders. . . .

Mike "Dance how you like, just don't step on my toes" Naughton





From: Douglas Zander <dzander@SOLARIA.SOL.NET>
Date: 25 Sep 1999 23:36
Subject: Re: Origami Calendar 2000 : a criticism

Now hold on David, I didn't mean to sound *that* drastic.  I would say lets
hear from more origamists who look at the calendar and hear what they have
to say.  But I would not give this calendar to a person who easily gets
frustrated.  :-)

>
> This is great!  Now I know that the paper is not square and the diagrams
> don't make sense!  Now I just need someone to tell me that they put on the
> dates wrong and there would be no reason to get it or give it!
>
> David
>
>
>

--
 Douglas Zander                |
 dzander@solaria.sol.net       |
 Shorewood, Wisconsin, USA     |





From: Alex Barber <barber@THE-VILLAGE.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 02:19
Subject: "Viva Origami" on eBay

I am in no way connected with the seller of this book, but I thought list
readers would be interested if anyone is looking for "Viva Origami". A copy
is up for bid on ebay.com at
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170469190

"Viva" is a great book, but just watch those bids ;) It's way too easy to
get carried away - "Someone outbid me? Well, I'll just raise them by $50..."

Alex Barber
barber@the-village.com | http://www.the-village.com





From: Kelly Dunn <Kellydunn@AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 04:21
Subject: libraries and e-books

In a message dated 9/26/99 2:19:15 AM, dmwhitbeck@UCDAVIS.EDU writes:

<< it's just
absurd when you can use the library and used bookstores to get the same
books.  I also don't understand people who want the book right now and
don't want to wait a couple of days to order it or reserve it at the
library.  >>

Yes, I'm for libraries too, and donating money you may spend on books (or
donating your books) to libraries, if you spent money on books, and are
finished reading them. Then, your local library is better resource and making
books and reading and origami available to more people. Not to be a
minimalist, but books kind-of clutter the house up don't they. Not very
peaceful.
Also, soon with e-books, we are not going to need book stores. So, the chain
stores are in trouble too. Not, now, but in the future, we are not going to
need paper books. An e-book can hold a whole library to carry with you. See,
Publish Magazine, Aug 1999. We really don't need paper anymore, except to
fold it.
Kelly
p.s. David, I renamed this for you.





From: DLister891@AOL.COM
Date: 26 Sep 1999 05:42
Subject: [NO] Re libraries and e-books

Kelly Dunn, commenting on David Whitbeck's earlier posting about chain
bookstores wrote earlier today:

> Yes, I'm for libraries too, and donating money you may spend on books (or
>  donating your books) to libraries, if you spent money on books, and are
>  finished reading them. Then, your local library is better resource and
> making books and reading and origami available to more people. Not to be a
>  minimalist, but books kind-of clutter the house up don't they. Not very
>  peaceful.
>
>  Also, soon with e-books, we are not going to need book stores. So, the
chain
>  stores are in trouble too. Not, now, but in the future, we are not going to
>  need paper books. An e-book can hold a whole library to carry with you.
See,
>  Publish Magazine, Aug 1999. We really don't need paper anymore, except to
>  fold it.

Kelly really does seem to be anti- (traditional) books and looks forward to
the day when all books and paper (except for folding, of course) will have
been abolished. If this happens, it will be a sad day for scholarship for
comfortable life.. Here are a few reasons:

1. A book is fairly permanent (Although not even messages chiselled in stone
can stand for ever). Internet sites are patently not and can vanish with all
their contents at the drop of a mouse.

2. The contents of each book are immutable and stand as a record for all the
time of its existence. Internet sites and their contents are subject to
amendment, without notification or record and without the possiblility of
finding whether or how or why  the author has chnged his mnd.

3. The contents of a book can be scanned rapidly by flipping through its
contents, pages and index. To go through an Internet site is a laborious
process and can take hours at the best of times and much longer if the line
is sluggish.

4. With a book, all of its pages are immediately accessible: the whole book
is in view and several books can be open on the table in front of you. This
is simply not possible with the one-page-at-a-time process of the Internet.

5. Apart from such rare changes as that from scroll to codex, the technology
of books has stood for some three thousand years. The technology of modern
mechnical and electronic systems is subject to rapid obsolescence. Business
firms and governments  have the greatest difficulty in reading their old
records and I have heard of firms retaining a whole succession of bulky and
obsolete computers solely because they are capable of reading out-dated
software. When were you last able to play your 78 r.p.m. records? How long
will  microfisches continue to be readable in libraries?

6. Reading a book in an armchair can be a comfortable and pleasurable
experience. This simply does not apply to sitting in front of a computer,
even a laptop.

Kelly seems to be anti-book, although she (I must apologise, Kelly if you are
a he) is happy to buy books and give them to libraries. Once they have been
read they are no further use to her. She even writes: "Books kind-of clutter
the house up, don't they"., although I am sure se says this with her tongue
firmly planted in her cheek.

My own attitude to books is very different. Our house is stuffed full of them
and I regard each of them as a friend. I know them all. I rarely read a book
the whole of the way through, but each book is there as a resource to be
referred to again and again and at a moment's notice. Even  public library
cannot live up to this. Each book is like a window on  different world and I
count myself greatly blessed to live in a world of books.

Yes, I do browse the Internet and I have found some fascinating sites there,
although nothing I have found can compare with a substantial book. I even
draw a blank from time to time. Only two days ago, I put in  serch for a word
and the single return was one of my own articles! I wouldn't be without my
computer, but I hope the time will never come when books and private
libraries are obsolete.

Davd Lister

Grimsby, England

DLister891@AOL.com





From: Kelly Dunn <Kellydunn@AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 07:52
Subject: Re libraries and e-books/to list w/ attn: David Lister

In a message dated 9/26/99 9:43:31 AM, DLister891@AOL.COM writes:

<< Kelly really does seem to be anti- (traditional) books and looks forward to
the day when all books and paper (except for folding, of course) will have
been abolished. If this happens, it will be a sad day for scholarship for
comfortable life.. Here are a few reasons: >>

In defense,
You didn't have time to read Publish magazine August 99 to learn what e-books
are. I didn't invent e-books, but mentioning it because it is a fact that the
world is changing and books are going digital, not all at once, but soon you
will be able to carry a whole library with you. I'm not anti-traditional
because I support public libraries as great resources which was a point I was
making. I don't look forward to the day when books are abolished, but do look
forward to change and seeing it's benefits, instead of dismissing it out of
fear of change.
<<1. A book is fairly permanent (Although not even messages chiselled in stone
can stand for ever). Internet sites are patently not and can vanish with all
their contents at the drop of a mouse.>>
Books turn to dust and fall apart...100 years or so, unless archivally cared
for, I'm not an expert on this. E-books are not internet sites. Digital
archiving is more permanent, and can be duplicated faster than paper.
<<2. The contents of each book are immutable and stand as a record for all the
time of its existence. Internet sites and their contents are subject to
amendment, without notification or record and without the possiblility of
finding whether or how or why  the author has chnged his mnd.>>
I agree with you. A book you can hold in your hand as proof that it is real
and unedited, E-books can't be edited either, but seem less real because you
can't hold them.
<<3. The contents of a book can be scanned rapidly by flipping through its
contents, pages and index. To go through an Internet site is a laborious
process and can take hours at the best of times and much longer if the line
is sluggish.>>
E-books again are not internet sites, but small book sized computers that
display books in text form to read. You load your favorite books into them,
kind-of like a tape or CD to play. Making it possible to carry all your
favorite books with you. They are light too. With E-books, you can search
your favorite part of a book and go right to the quote, favorite page, index.
Fast.
<<4. With a book, all of its pages are immediately accessible: the whole book
is in view and several books can be open on the table in front of you. This
is simply not possible with the one-page-at-a-time process of the Internet.>>
E-books will make books immeditately accessible, and since you don't have to
carry heavy books with you, you can read and look through, all your books,
with this light computer, even out on a hike, waiting for a doctor's
appointment etc. A good resource. But, still I agree with you not as real of
an experience. But, imagine this experience, going on a bike ride then
stopping at a favorite spot to pull out your E-book and reading some of your
favorite poetry, or parts of some of your favorite books.
<<5. Apart from such rare changes as that from scroll to codex, the technology
of books has stood for some three thousand years. The technology of modern
mechnical and electronic systems is subject to rapid obsolescence. Business
firms and governments  have the greatest difficulty in reading their old
records and I have heard of firms retaining a whole succession of bulky and
obsolete computers solely because they are capable of reading out-dated
software. When were you last able to play your 78 r.p.m. records? How long
will  microfisches continue to be readable in libraries?>>
Microfiches are switching to searchable CD's, faster, easier to find. Less
work for librarians to organize. I know. I organized microfilm for three
years. It's messy, disorganized, frustrating, but a real thing, film that you
can see. Yes, E-books could not last. But, logically with technology,
something close to these new ideas will. Just like the VCR lasted for a long
time bringing movies into homes, and now is changing to DVD. Where are the
books written three thousand years ago, and where can I read them? Maybe,
three thousand years from now we can make all of our books available to
future generations. They will know us better than we guess at knowing people
three thousand years ago. I wish I could read what they had to say.
<<6. Reading a book in an armchair can be a comfortable and pleasurable
experience. This simply does not apply to sitting in front of a computer,
even a laptop.>>
I agree with you. I think it's a better experience to be in an armchair. But,
what if you like to read, and are not near an airchair, and you have an
E-book with you. You can simulate this experience in the time that you have,
that you are not at home. Not the same, but still pretty neat to have that
resource.
<<Kelly seems to be anti-book, although she (I must apologise, Kelly if you
are
a he) is happy to buy books and give them to libraries. Once they have been
read they are no further use to her. She even writes: "Books kind-of clutter
the house up, don't they"., although I am sure se says this with her tongue
firmly planted in her cheek.>>
I don't say this with my tongue in my cheek, I don't believe having a book in
my ownership, possession makes it any less meaningful to me. I value what I
read. I've read many books several times. And, giving them away, sharing
them, doesn't make them disappear. I just don't feel like I need to own them.
In fact, they belong to the author, not me, it's their experience that they
have given to us in book form, an incredible gift; I bet you agree with me
since I know you must love books to write such a response. And, also, can
tell that not only do you love to read them, the words, but love the paper
and cover, the physical book. I admit that the words that the author has
written have more meaning to me to keep with me than the physical book.
<<My own attitude to books is very different. Our house is stuffed full of
them
and I regard each of them as a friend. I know them all. I rarely read a book
the whole of the way through, but each book is there as a resource to be
referred to again and again and at a moment's notice. Even  public library
cannot live up to this. Each book is like a window on  different world and I
count myself greatly blessed to live in a world of books.>>
I feel greatly blessed to read books too. I feel like some authors are
friends because they have let us into their world. Your house sounds amazing.
I would love to see it and borrow a book. Maybe, you would share one of your
favorites, and it would touch my life as much as it has touched yours.
<<Yes, I do browse the Internet and I have found some fascinating sites there,
although nothing I have found can compare with a substantial book. I even
draw a blank from time to time. Only two days ago, I put in  serch for a word
and the single return was one of my own articles! I wouldn't be without my
computer, but I hope the time will never come when books and private
libraries are obsolete.>>
I don't think that time will come (not anytime soon) because there are people
like you who love to keep books that are important to you near you. I value
that very much. And, don't mean to offend you, but to defend myself. (since
you wrote to the list) With change there are two choices, (maybe, more, you
are probably wiser and smarter than me and know more about the philosophy of
change) So in my opinion, there are two choices, you can deny it, or you can
enjoy it, and keep at the same time what is in your control, important to
you. If you can enjoy it, it's to your benefit because it too can open new
worlds to you, or at least inform you that change is happening. You might be
missing out on something fascinating that man has gotten to the level of
creating.
There's a lot of fun in that.
Also, know that I respect your viewpoint, and hope you now see mine more
clearly now.
Sincerely,
Kelly Dunn





From: Ho <gmjkho@PRIMUS.COM.AU>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 11:06
Subject: Origami & Mental Health Therapy --- new address

Hi

With great appreciation for your creativity,  I wish to share new pictures
of my foldings:-

   Pentagon-Hexagon Zig-Zag Unit  ------ by Thomas Hull

   Magic Rings ----------------80----------------- by Thoki Yenn

   Angel  ---------------------------------------------- by David Brill

   5-pointed Star (modular) ---------------- by Nick Robinson

   Butterfly  --------------88------------------ by Akira Yoshizawa

   Rabbit's Head ------------------------------- by Jon Tremaine

   Architectural Module ---------------------- by Didier Boursin

Please note that my--- NEW--- web site address as below.

Sincerely

George Ho
*********************************************************
http://go.to/origami

back-up email :   george_ho@yawmail.com





From: Doug and Anna Weathers <dougw@RDROP.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 07:31
Subject: Re: [NO] Re: Dibbiks

>From Kenneth M. Kawamura:

>I think I've seen this spelled dybbuks.

My dictionary confirms the spelling dybbuks.

>The dybbuk reminds me of the "Hound of Tindalos", from the H. P. Lovecraft
>et al horror Mythos, which, I think, travels inter-dimensionally, and only
>appears out of corners of rooms.

I was thinking about the Hounds of Tindalos, too.  Frank Belknap Long first
described them in his Cthulhu Mythos story "The Hounds of Tindalos".  "Lean
and athirst" they were.  The doomed soul who catches their attention tries
desperately to fill in all the angles in his room with plaster before they
arrive...

Are there any Cthulhu Mythos origami models?

Anna

Anna Weathers, Portland, Oregon, USA
"In paradox truth."





From: Doug and Anna Weathers <dougw@RDROP.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 08:15
Subject: Re: [NO] libraries and e-books

>
>Yes, I'm for libraries too, and donating money you may spend on books (or
>donating your books) to libraries, if you spent money on books, and are
>finished reading them. Then, your local library is better resource and making
>books and reading and origami available to more people. Not to be a
>minimalist, but books kind-of clutter the house up don't they. Not very
>peaceful.

>Kelly

I give money and books to the library.  On the other hand, I find nothing
more peaceful and attractive than a room lined with filled bookshelves, and
I have several walls of those, too.

I don't think e-books will replace print very soon.  Books are nicer to
hold, and don't rely on changing technologies to remain readable.

Anna

Anna Weathers, Portland, Oregon, USA
"In paradox truth."





From: Doug and Anna Weathers <dougw@RDROP.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 08:31
Subject: Re: [NO] Borders is a skurj

> Isa wrote:
>You can lament the demise of the small town and the small town shops all you
>like, but....
>1) I grew up in a small town. People there are POOR.

I grew up in a small town, too.  In fact, there were only 350 people there,
and it was 45 miles to the nearest larger town (of 3000.)  I was probably
poor, but since I didn't have big chains and malls waving huge amounts of
things for me to buy (that I couldn't afford) at me, I didn't notice being
poor.  I had enough.
I never went hungry, always had something to wear (nobody was waving new
fashions every 3 months at me, either) had a pleasant home to escape the
weather and could always find someone to talk to.

Now I live in the city.  I appreciate that there are more choices available
here, more information.  My husband's job wouldn't exist in a town like the
one I grew up in.  But it's hard to find anyone with time for the kind of
conversations I used to take for granted.

So, big and small have their tradeoffs, with or without chains.

Anna

Anna Weathers, Portland, Oregon, USA
"In paradox truth."





From: Julia Palffy <jupalffy@BLUEWIN.CH>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:03
Subject: Books & Internet

David Lister writes:

My own attitude to books is very different. Our house is stuffed full of
them
and I regard each of them as a friend. I know them all. I rarely read a
book
the whole of the way through, but each book is there as a resource to be
referred to again and again and at a moment's notice. Even  public library
cannot live up to this. Each book is like a window on  different world and
I
count myself greatly blessed to live in a world of books.

Words that seem to have been stolen out of my own heart. Is there such a
thing as mind-hackers?

I'd like to add, however, that I don't necessarily see it as books vs.
computers. I think computers won't banish books, but either will come to be
used for more specific purposes. While I entirely agree with David's words
above, I am also delighted to be able to browse through the catalogue of
the Library of Congress at any time of the day without having to fly over
the Atlantic, or even taking a half-hour train ride to Zurich, thanks to
the Internet!!! As a librarian, I have used both card catalogues and
computer catalogues, both to record books and to seach for them, and
there's  no getting around the fact that the computer spares you a lot of
time and frustration! (It brings other kinds of frustration with it too,
but that's another story).

All the best,

Julia Palffy
Zug, Switzerland
jupalffy@bluewin.ch





From: Julia Palffy <jupalffy@BLUEWIN.CH>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:03
Subject: Re: libraries & e-books

I came across the following text a long time ago, and still love it!

Paper and Pencil

The current information revolution has emphasized the importance of
low-cost easy-to-use memories for recording, computing and data handling.
The PAPER (Passive Accumulative Permanent/Erasable Raster) and PENCIL
(Plotter/Encoder/Notator for Ciphers, Icons and Letters) system meets these
requirements, and provides a flexible format from which information is
retrieved by optical character recognition.
Paper is a modular storage medium, implemented in fibrous sheets typically
0.125 mm thick. Contents are non-volatile and readout is non-destructive.
The memory module is the PAGE (Planar Addressable Graphics Element) , which
may be obtained in an unstructured configuration or with ruled columns or
rows. The rules facilitate orderly information transfers. The standard page
measures 21.59 by 27.94 cm, although reams of other sizes are in common
use. Bulk storage is accomplished with multiple pages, arranged in a stack
and bonded along one edge to form a BOOK (Bound Organization Of Knowledge)

(Source: Instruments and Control Systems, March 1972, quoted in an office
newsletter.)

Maybe it's just a matter of finding a common language , after all...

Julia Palffy
Zug, Switzerland
jupalffy@bluewin.ch





From: Julia Palffy <jupalffy@BLUEWIN.CH>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:41
Subject: 3000-year old books

Kelly Dunn wrote:

 Where are the books written three thousand years ago, and where can I read
them?

The Epic of Gilgamesh was written long before that on clay tablets and I
saw it recently among the books of Robert Silverberg, J.R.R. Tolkien, Anne
MacCaffrey, Marion Zimmer Bradley, et al. in the fantasy section of a
bookstore.

The Book of Exodus in the Bible tells about things which happened about
1200 before our era (still more than 3000 years ago) - and the Bible is
still the all-time bestseller of the world! And I loved Spielberg's cartoon
film version of it - 'The Prince of Egypt'.

The Iliad and the Odyssey were written around 800 years before our era (not
quite 3000 years ago but still pretty close, considering) and also tell
about events ca. 1200 years  and still get translated, adapted, filmed...

The Mahabharata, the longest epic of the world, is probably at least as old
(someone correct me if I'm mistaken), and yet it still gets represented in
traditional Indian theatre, and I saw a film made from it less than ten
years ago, which I watched again a few years later as a 6-part serial on
TV.

Who says 3000-year old books don't live on?

And to get back closer to origami, books may eventually turn to dust (so do
we all...the clay tablets of Gilgamesh didn't!), but depending on what kind
of paper (or other stuff) they are made of, they can last much longer than
100 years. What falls to pieces in ten year's time is the high-acid-content
industrial paper of the 50's and 60's, but take hand-made rag paper such as
they used for books produced in the 17th & 18th century, and those books
have survived 2 centuries much better than modern paperback survive 20
years (or even 2,in some cases...). Anway, we already had a discussion of
paper durability a month or two ago, so let's leave it at that.

All the best,

Julia Palffy
Zug, Switzerland
jupalffy@bluewin.ch
