




From: Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 02:01:52 -0700
Subject: Re: OUSA ....

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Thomas C Hull wrote:

> First, several have commented that I responded to "the letter"
> rather emotionally and with a bit of spite.  All I can say
> is that I found the letter itself to be rather spitefull.
> Being accused of "thumbing our noses" does hurt, and this
> kind of language does not exactly encourage discussion.

I apolgize if it hurt you. We were also hurt to get a letter declining our
nominations with no explanation nor phone call.  I would have thought it
would have prompted somebody to at least call us.

I did call Tony, after the nomination letter was sent...but his only
response was that they (the OUSA board) was not yet prepared to give us a
response.  So we waited patiently and the response we finally got was a
letter, terse and to the point.  The only correspondence has been with
V'Ann, and that did not have input from other board members. She didn't
seem to have any problems communicating with us.  I'm surprised, if you
wanted to have discussion, you didn't think of contacting us like V'Ann
did.

> In fact, I'm somewhat surprised that Allen Parry and Steve
> Buck sound so open to discussion in their recent origami-l
> postings.  I'm certainly glad they are!  But the tone of
> their original letter made me think otherwise.
>
> Second, I really would like Allen or Steve or anyone else to
> respond to my argument that an upheaval of 4 OUSA Board seats
> right now would be going too fast.  Steve Buck claims that this
> is not what will necessarily happen, but "the letter" clearly
> requests that all members vote for the write-in candidates.

I don't know what "too fast" is to you.  The issue is that this board is
suppose to represent the whole country.  If it is not, is there a "too
fast"?  I don't hear such concerns when it comes to presidential
elections.

I think if you read that letter more carefully, you'd also notice that we
also expected that the board would disregard those votes.  We asked people
to "write us in" to voice their opinion.

Myself, I am tired of always being presented a slate.  For example, with
this election we are presented with five candidates.  We are to select
five, any five.  What's the point of that?

> If there really are a majority of members who agree with that
> that letter states, then we can expect there to be 4 new Board
> members and for Jean-Baden Gillette (the current OUSA President),
> Lin Balinsky (the current Secretary), Marc Kirschenbaum,
> and Aldo Putignano would be ousted.  My opinion remains that
> if this happens then various OUSA operations would be threatened.

Maybe, maybe not.  And "ousted" is strong wordage.  If they are as
dedicated as they seem, I'd expect they'd be around to assist and to help
in the transition.  Are they going to just quit OrigamiUSA in a
temper-tantrum?  I don't think so, they're much bigger people than that.
You make the concept of change so fatalistic....

Anyway, does the entire organization rest upon their shoulders?  What
about the other seven, are they considered incapable?

> Third, Steve raises a very good point about the difference
> between the NY origami group and OUSA.  I've been pushing
> for a better definition between the two at our monthly
> Board meetings.  Yet it's been difficult.  One big reason
> is OUSA's relationship with the Museum of Natural History.
> To maintain our rent-free office space we sustain a symbiotic
> relationship with AMNH.  We organize the Holiday Tree and
> Holiday Gift exhibitions, run "folding tables" where Museum
> visitors can learn origami at various AMNH functions, and
> move to new office locations whenever they tell us to move.
> All of this is done by NY origamists.  So in a very real sense
> OUSA exists via the labor of NY origamists.  Separating the
> two in terms of labor would be impossible.  This does
> carry over to the Board in that we have to deal with the
> Museum and maintain our NY volunteer base.  At the same
> time there *is* a NY folding group - NY origamists do organize
> "Folding Free For Alls" and other events around the city.
> Sometimes these are reported in _The Paper_ and sometimes
> they're not.  But I don't see how there can be a clean
> break between OUSA the the NY origamists.

Well, don't give up the ghost.  If is was really wanted, a way could be
developed to separate the two operations.  I don't think anyone believes
it would be impossible.

> Fourth, I don't agree with Allen's statement that "it all
> begins at the board."  Perhaps I'll get into trouble for
> saying this, but I see the OUSA Board as very much a "working"
> Board as opposed to a "policy making" Board.  Don't get me
> wrong - we do try to set policy for things!  But each of us
> is very much into the nitty-gritty details of various
> projects too.  I view that as taking up most of our time,
> anyway.  Perhaps we should focus more of our efforts in
> setting direction for the organization, but frankly we
> haven't had the time!  Constructive help from origamists
> across the country would help us do that.  A coup, in my
> opinion, would not.

Perhaps you have put your finger on a major part of the problem... a
working board...."taking up most of [your] time".  This is very
non-standard.  I, for one, would much rather have a board which was free
to respond to the issues, rather than dealing with the nitty-gritty. A
sign of good leadership is delegation, and motivating others to
participate....to take ownership in the organization.  There is a whole
country willing to shoulder the burden.

> Lastly, I have to say that I am puzzled.  I am puzzled by
> the repeated statements to the effect of, "I really
> appreciate and respect the devotion and work of the OUSA
> Board.  But we think you have lost sight of the national
> organization, and we'd like to replace you so we can try
> to do better."

I don't think at ANY time we said we'd like to "replace you".  Perhaps
you're taking this too defensively.  We did say we do not want to be
excluded and allowed to run as candidates.  If the membership desires a
change, who are we to agrue?  Its their call, not ours, and not your's.

> To me, this would be an avenue of last resort - if things got so bad
> that we had to just "clean house", so to speak.

When is hearing the voice of the members a last resort?

> But please believe me when I say that I don't think we're there yet.
> This is the first time this has been discussed on origami-l!  So how can
> we say we've even had an extended dialogue on the issue?  If the
> membership wants change then the first step is to talk to the Board.

I disagree...that is not the first step.  I think you have it backwards.
The board serves the membership, not the membership the board.  It's
their job to listen to their constituency.

The FIRST step is for the board to listen to the membership. Perhaps
because we've moved away from open, unslated elections, we've also moved
away from a board that feels the need to continually poll and solicit the
membership as a whole.  By opening up the elections, you will be giving
the people the chance to express THEIR desires.

Besides, my experience has been, bringing things to the board ends in a
bureaucratic black hole.... that being "too busy" that you mentioned. I
don't believe the OrigamiUSA board is motivated, or is it in their own
personal interest, from doing anything except just continuing the status
quo.

Additionally, it seems from your expression, that giving the people a
chance to express their desires, through the vote, seems to bring about
some kind of strong emotional response.  To be very honest, I don't
understand this response. Change cannot occur unless the people really
want it. If you think the people are content with the current
administration, then you should have nothing to concern yourself with.
If they do, it's not your's to contest.

> And I know that some people feel like they've been ignored or only met
> with arguments.  That can happen with an all-volunteer Board.  I, for
> one, really need to go to bed so that I can teach all day tomorrow!  But
> for this issue, having more non-NY-ers on the Board, there hasn't been
> any discussion.  Just a letter demanding that non-NY-ers be added to the
> ballot with a threat of legal action if we refused.  Thus my puzzlement.

My puzzlement is, why not give the people the choice?  Is it not their
organization?

> I find it so incredibly hard not to take all of this
> emotionally.  But I am trying, and I hope I've made
> my points clear without offending anyone further.

I, personally, appreciate your efforts.

Allen Parry
parry@eskimo.com





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 08:38:43 -0400
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

Matthias Gutfeldt indited:

+Guess I'm just in this grumpy mood today...
+
+1)why do you OrigamiUSA folk wash your dirty laundry in public?

Why is it dirty laundry?  I'm sick of the back room secrecy.

+2)why on an INTERNATIONAL mailing list?

I for one want to get input on how other origami organizations around the
world are run.

+3)why on an ORIGAMI mailing list?

Come on Matthias, what could be MORE on topic?  Why do you bother folding?  If
you fold, WHY do you bother to seek out other folders, or others who might
want to fold?  What is this list, if not discussion.  We don't fold here, we
talk about it.  Sometimes its nitty gritty details about a model, design,
paper, or, HORRORS, an origami _group_ event, such as a convention, meeting,
etc.

+1) Personal differences should be taken out in private e-mails. They're
+none of our business.

That's a divide an conquer method.  Oh, you're the only one with this problem,
it must be you.  Well, its not just "me."

Matthias, why do you belong to a national origami association (assuming you
do)? What benefits do you get from it, and what costs do you pay?  Yes, I _DO_
want to know.

-Doug





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:51:24 -0400
Subject: Re: national organization

Joseph Wu, replying to Allen Parry, indited:

> This is also fair enough. But look at it from a third party's point of view:
> a rather inflammatory letter arrives asking people to rise up in arms against
> a corrupt leadership. The only information is that which is contained in the
> letter. Looks like an attempted coup, doesn't it?

No, it didn't to me.  I read the part that said:  "The OrigamiUSA board will
not accept it, but your voice will be heard.  In addition, if you can, slip in
a note to Jean Baden-Gillette voicing your opinion. Your voice will make a
difference."

-Doug





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:51:49 -0400
Subject: Re: OUSA ....(Tom Hull)

>
> Tom,
>
> I really appreciate your feedback.  Would it be possible for other OUSA
> Board Members to participate in this discussion? Thank you.
>
> Dorothy
>
I am sure that the OUSA Board Members who have access to THIS list are
participating.

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Russell Sutherland <RGS467@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:00:21 -0400 (
Subject: Re: US go home !

In a message dated 4/6/99 5:10:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
jj-casalonga@MAGIC.FR writes:

<<
          US go home ! >>

I haven't even gotten there yet.... wait til NEXT MONTH!  Should I brush up
on my FRENCH??  I promise to keep my IMPERIALISM in check if you will.

I am really looking forward to the PARIS CONVENTION..... Can you tell?

Russell.... AKA: LONE





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:02:27 -0400
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

>
> Guess I'm just in this grumpy mood today...
>
> 1)why do you OrigamiUSA folk wash your dirty laundry in public?
> 2)why on an INTERNATIONAL mailing list?
> 3)why on an ORIGAMI mailing list?

Grumpy or not, I agree with you!
Let me add as well that not all OUSA members are members of this list. That
is also true (as far as I know) regarding OUSA board members.

----
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Matthias Gutfeldt <tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:57:56 +0200
Subject: (OT) RE: read me

Marcus Hanson wrote:
>Like a sheep I will participate if all of you will.
>
>THE GREAT "GAS OUT"

You'd be less of a sheep if you didn't post this off- topic, USA-
specific chain letters on an international mailing list.
Compared to the rest of the world, gas in the USA is dirt cheap already.

Matthias, on easter-bunny withdrawal
tanjit@bboxbbs.ch





From: Cosette * <sbbaker@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:08:56 -0700 (
Subject: Re: OUSA Discussion

Okay..this is my view.  I am a member of the OUSA.  I understand that it
probably has some flaws in it, but doesn't every organization.  And if
you fellow-members who are arguing so much about it are so
dis-satisfied, why are you still members of the organization?  If you
don't like it, then unsubscribe, and get into a local group, or start a
group of your own where you can do everything just perfect (since you
know everything that an organization should have and do).

no offense to anyone, I'm just tired of this discussion...new topic
please!

Sarah Beth (aka Cosette)
sbbaker@hotmail.com
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:17:57 -0400
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Eric Pernin wrote:
>
> Please, give a break to my provider, (make lovely models not war)

my god ... you folks are as bad as the rave list i'm on -- every time
someone brings up a topic that seems cynical or depressing or whatever,
the alarms in someone's head go off and say "you're not being happy
enough! back in your cage!"

well, lemme inform you of one thing -- this list isn't supposed to be JUST
about models or creators or diagrams or techniques, it's about general
discussion regarding all aspects of origami.

to be perfectly honest, the majority of its members are from the US and
Canada, and are probably members of OUSA. i know i have filtered through
myriad messages as people talk about conventions i'll never go to, or
folding techniques i'm not interested in. what makes non-us folders so
special that we have to curtail our discussions so they don't have to
filter their messages?

and i know someone's going to bring up the idea of an OUSA list. well, it
seems to me that all the members of such a list would already be here, so
what's the point. it's not as extreme an issue as the one that spawned the
"unleashed" list (of which i am also a proud member)

anyway ... quit your complaining, folks, this thread isn't going to die
yet. we need to talk about this in a semi-open forum and this is the forum
most suited to it.

i for one am glad that we've got so many more people than usual talking.
there have been times of silence on this list that made me think i had
been unsubbed. this makes up for some of that.

as for those who complain of too many messages at once -- i'm subscribed
to three rave lists, two origami lists, and many smaller lists; i have had
days when five messages arrive and days when 200 arrive. i wouldn't unsub
from any of them. i have a delete key and i use it if necessary. if you
really can't handle the volume of messages, don't expect others to stop
posting just for your benefit; there's a digest mode if you need it, and
if space is really that much of an issue on your account, i don't know why
the hell you bothered to sign onto a mailing list in the first place.

to quote Super Chicken,
"you knew the job was dangerous when you took it"

peace,
alasdair "spring broken" cpq





From: Matthias Gutfeldt <tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:31:28 +0200
Subject: (OT) That OUSA business

Guess I'm just in this grumpy mood today...

1)why do you OrigamiUSA folk wash your dirty laundry in public?
2)why on an INTERNATIONAL mailing list?
3)why on an ORIGAMI mailing list?

Sure, how an origami society is managed can be an emotional topic. I've
seen it at the Origami Deutschland meetings. No problem.

However:
1) Personal differences should be taken out in private e-mails. They're
none of our business.
2) People from all over the world subscribe to this list. For me, a
non-American and non- OUSA member, this whole discussion is just getting
more and more embarrassing and annoying.
3) This discussion is not in the least on topic here. How OUSA is
managed or not has nothing to do with origami. It might be on topic in a
mailing list about management of non-profit organizations, but not here.
You could at least add an (OT) in the subject header.

Enough said. Maybe I should simply add the subject to my mail filter.

Matthias Gutfeldt, Berne Switzerland
P.S.: And I hope Bianca returns from holidays before we've all drowned
in her holiday messages





From: Jean-Jerome CASALONGA <jj-casalonga@MAGIC.FR>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:11:42 +0200
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

    Yes,

        Down with the american imperialism ! ! ! !

         US go home !

        Free Kosovo !

                JJ Caaaaaasalonga
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Matthias Gutfeldt <tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
 : ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date : mardi 6 avril 1999 11:29
Objet : (OT) That OUSA business

>Guess I'm just in this grumpy mood today...
>
>1)why do you OrigamiUSA folk wash your dirty laundry in public?
>2)why on an INTERNATIONAL mailing list?
>3)why on an ORIGAMI mailing list?
>
>Sure, how an origami society is managed can be an emotional topic. I've
>seen it at the Origami Deutschland meetings. No problem.
>
>However:
>1) Personal differences should be taken out in private e-mails. They're
>none of our business.
>2) People from all over the world subscribe to this list. For me, a
>non-American and non- OUSA member, this whole discussion is just getting
>more and more embarrassing and annoying.
>3) This discussion is not in the least on topic here. How OUSA is
>managed or not has nothing to do with origami. It might be on topic in a
>mailing list about management of non-profit organizations, but not here.
>You could at least add an (OT) in the subject header.
>
>Enough said. Maybe I should simply add the subject to my mail filter.
>
>Matthias Gutfeldt, Berne Switzerland
>P.S.: And I hope Bianca returns from holidays before we've all drowned
>in her holiday messages





From: Lisa Hodsdon <Lisa_Hodsdon@HMCO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 13:16:54 -0400
Subject: What does the OUSA board do?

This is, perhaps, something that ought to be addressed
in _The Paper_, but it certainly lies at the foundation
 of the current debate about OUSA.

Just what does the OUSA board do?

>From Tom's recent message I now know that they meet
monthly. This is certainly too often for board members
from around the country to gather to meet. On the other
hand, there must be stuff that the board does that requires
that they meet so often.

But I have no clue what those things are.

Does the *national* business of the board require monthly
meetings? Is some of the work done by board members really
the work of the *board of directors* or do they do some of
this work because they include the *core NY group*?

Maybe a partial solution is to have the current NY-centric
"executive" board* who meet often and get things done and
to also have a larger national board who meet twice annually
(once at the NY convention) to discuss national and
organizational issues.

The "executive" board would report its doings to the larger
"national" board (and the membership?) on a monthly basis.
The larger board would be better suited than the current
board to bring regional issues to the attention of the national
organization. And everyone would have a better sense of what
the organization as a whole was doing.

Lisa (You made me miss lunch)
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com

*By "NY-centric" I don't mean to exclude the current
number of non-NY board members. By "executive" I mean
"those who get things done" rather than "those who have
complete control."





From: Marcus Hanson <hecatomb@CARROLLSWEB.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 13:21:01 -0500
Subject: Re: (OT) RE: read me

> You'd be less of a sheep if you didn't post this off- topic, USA-
> specific chain letters on an international mailing list.
> Compared to the rest of the world, gas in the USA is dirt cheap already.
>
> Matthias, on easter-bunny withdrawal
> tanjit@bboxbbs.ch

I meant to delete out Origami - L
but I deleted out my brother instead in haste.
sorry everyone

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Marcus Hanson's Digital Gallery
http://www.members.tripod.com/~MarcH_3/index.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"To know is nothing at all, to imagine is everything"
                                        - Anatoole France -





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 13:29:43 -0600
Subject: Re: OUSA Discussion

Cosette * wrote:
>  And if
> you fellow-members who are arguing so much about it are so
> dis-satisfied, why are you still members of the organization?  If you
> don't like it, then unsubscribe, and get into a local group, or start a
> group of your own where you can do everything just perfect (since you
> know everything that an organization should have and do).

Cosette, I hope you don't have the same attitude toward car repair.  The
cars running a bit rough this morning.  No bother, getting a tune up,
I'll just buy a new car.

>
> no offense to anyone, I'm just tired of this discussion...new topic
> please!
>

I hate to tell you this, but the discussion has only just began.  And if
people can simmer down, and keep their heads, it could result in changes
to OUSA that benefit all members, even satisfied ones like you.  If you
don't like the topic, I suggest you do the same thing I did with the
long boring "Husky dog" topic, delete the mail, unread.  Or you could
take the same drastic action your suggesting the rest of us take.

No wait!  Don't do that!  I'm sorry, I can be a bit of a wise ass
sometimes.  It's just I think this is an important topic. Probably one
of the most important ones raised in a long time.  A lot of people feel
very strongly about this, and their views deserve to be air.  And I
can't think of a more appropriate place to air them.  So the rest of us
need to be patient until it runs it's course.  And then maybe they won't
be so testy when someone raises a topic, they're not interested in.

Sorry again.  I'm just to much of a Les Mis fan, to go on offending,
anyone going by Cosette.

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *          Origamist:         *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Some one who thinks paper   *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * thin, means thick and bulky *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Mark and Theresa <mark@HOBBITON.FORCE9.NET>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:13:58 +0100
Subject: Elias Animal Base

I made an elephant at a convention which starts with this base. Since
then I have seen many other animals with the same base, but no starting
instructions. I have the 3 large format BOS booklets but these refer to
models that are not included. I could take the elephant apart, but I
doubt if I could get it back together again!

--
Mark





From: Jeff DeHerdt <jadeherd@IUPUI.EDU>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:53:53 -0500
Subject: OUSA discussion

        I love this topic. I just joined OUSA a month ago and recieved my
first "Paper". The names mentioned in the articles weren't totally
unfamiliar because of internet access and this list. I agree with a
previous post that this newsletter is of better quality than most
organizations of the same size(glossy pages, diagrams).
        One thing I did notice immediately was very little mention of the
politics(for lack of a better word) of the organization. In other words, I
was unsure what I could do to help further the cause of the group, or what
the group was doing(besides conventions and publication, which I realize
are no small tasks).
        I think Mr. Hull mentioned something about improving the web page,
or the way in which the group accesses the internet. Maybe all the details
haven't been sorted out yet, but isn't this something you might want to
put in the newsletter to get opinions from OUSA members? I even thought a
little mention was given to it in the Paper, but no details - or calls for
opinions.
        As a matter of fact, some the OUSA governing body topics mentioned
could easily be mentioned in a short insert(on cheaper paper)which could
be put in the regular magazine, therefore possibly making it cheaper. That
way members could get more information on the actual workings of the
organization, not what is already completed, or done.
        Otherwise, offering the magazine as a seperate fee(besides
membership, as exemplified in the letter from the Tanteidan member) might
not be a bad idea. That way the members can actually fund the
organization, not just the magazine.

        BTW, I beleive emotionally charged arguments are good every once
in a while - as long as they are not prolonged. It's nice to see everybody
responding to a subject after the slight lull. Although, I swear I saw a
message from Xuxa Rojas just before the discussion took off.

                                        Jeffrey DeHerdt





From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:34:51 +0100
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM> sez

>+1)why do you OrigamiUSA folk wash your dirty laundry in public?

It's a public discussion about origami administration & I'm quite
interested in reading about it. I just wish people wouldn't do so much
quoting in their replies!

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - now featuring soda syphons!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos





From: Eric Pernin <pernin2@ART.ALCATEL.FR>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:17:00 +0200
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

Sheldon Ackerman wrote:
>
> >
> > Guess I'm just in this grumpy mood today...
> >
> > 1)why do you OrigamiUSA folk wash your dirty laundry in public?
> > 2)why on an INTERNATIONAL mailing list?
> > 3)why on an ORIGAMI mailing list?
>
> Grumpy or not, I agree with you!
> Let me add as well that not all OUSA members are members of this list. That
> is also true (as far as I know) regarding OUSA board members.
>
> ----
> Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
> ackerman@dorsai.org
> sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu

My turn to tell you that I agree with Matthias. I thought that the aim
of this list was to share diagrams have to have some chats about models
and folders.

Now it's only gossip and it looks more like a "South will rise again"
(but today it's more a West Vs East).

I guess that is not of my business but I would appreciate that you guys
put some water in your wine and talk of this out of this list.
I was away from my unix station yesterday and I got 124 mails from the
origami list and most of them were regarding this problem of yours.

Please, give a break to my provider, (make lovely models not war)

Cheers

Eric

Eric





From: Eric Pernin <pernin2@ART.ALCATEL.FR>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:17:00 +0200
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

Sheldon Ackerman wrote:
>
> >
> > Guess I'm just in this grumpy mood today...
> >
> > 1)why do you OrigamiUSA folk wash your dirty laundry in public?
> > 2)why on an INTERNATIONAL mailing list?
> > 3)why on an ORIGAMI mailing list?
>
> Grumpy or not, I agree with you!
> Let me add as well that not all OUSA members are members of this list. That
> is also true (as far as I know) regarding OUSA board members.
>
> ----
> Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
> ackerman@dorsai.org
> sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu

My turn to tell you that I agree with Matthias. I thought that the aim
of this list was to share diagrams have to have some chats about models
and folders.

Now it's only gossip and it looks more like a "South will rise again"
(but today it's more a West Vs East).

I guess that is not of my business but I would appreciate that you guys
put some water in your wine and talk of this out of this list.
I was away from my unix station yesterday and I got 124 mails from the
origami list and most of them were regarding this problem of yours.

Please, give a break to my provider, (make lovely models not war)

Cheers

Eric

Eric





From: Eric Pernin <pernin2@ART.ALCATEL.FR>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:22:51 +0200
Subject: Re: US go home !

Russell Sutherland wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/6/99 5:10:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
> jj-casalonga@MAGIC.FR writes:
>
> <<
>           US go home ! >>
>
> I haven't even gotten there yet.... wait til NEXT MONTH!  Should I brush up
> on my FRENCH??  I promise to keep my IMPERIALISM in check if you will.
>
> I am really looking forward to the PARIS CONVENTION..... Can you tell?
>
> Russell.... AKA: LONE

Hi Russell

Not all the French are like JJ Casalonga. There always a black sheep in
a family. I met this guy JJ and he is a bit weird. By the way, if your
French is rusty, I can help.

Cheers

Eric





From: Eric Pernin <pernin2@ART.ALCATEL.FR>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:38:04 +0200
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

Alasdair Post-Quinn wrote:
>
> On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Eric Pernin wrote:
> >
> > Please, give a break to my provider, (make lovely models not war)
>
> well, lemme inform you of one thing -- this list isn't supposed to be JUST
> about models or creators or diagrams or techniques, it's about general
> discussion regarding all aspects of origami.
>
> to be perfectly honest, the majority of its members are from the US and
> Canada, and are probably members of OUSA.

Sorry I was born on the other side of the atlantique ocean. I guess you
should rename it OUSA ORIGAMI LIST right now as it's only to be in
english and for us citizens.

> and i know someone's going to bring up the idea of an OUSA list. well, it
> seems to me that all the members of such a list would already be here, so
> what's the point. it's not as extreme an issue as the one that spawned the
> "unleashed" list (of which i am also a proud member)

Can't you start now ? In the mean time we can start an origami list for
all people outside of the US.

>
> to quote Super Chicken,
> "you knew the job was dangerous when you took it"

Guess I didn't know how dangerous it would be. So Ok,Carry on your forum
about OUSA and let us know if you split.

Sorry folk I must be a dreamer.

kill them all, God will sort them out.





From: Cyrille Preaux <cyrille.preaux@ACCESINTERNET.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:43:53 +0200
Subject: Re: Elias Animal Base

i'm not sure of what u mean cos of my poor english...

if u search for the diagram of the neal elias elephant i've done this
diagram.

i'm not sure this is the elias elephant (quite sure)..

make a search on vincent osele and u will find his site...

there u can find the diagram.

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Mark and Theresa <mark@HOBBITON.FORCE9.NET>
 : ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date : mardi 6 avril 1999 15:13
Objet : Elias Animal Base

>I made an elephant at a convention which starts with this base. Since
>then I have seen many other animals with the same base, but no starting
>instructions. I have the 3 large format BOS booklets but these refer to
>models that are not included. I could take the elephant apart, but I
>doubt if I could get it back together again!
>
>--
>Mark





From: Hatori Koshiro <hatori@JADE.DTI.NE.JP>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 03:04:25 +0900
Subject: Re: National organization

Since Origami Tanteidan is the nation-wide organization as OUSA
and I am a member of the board of it, I will write about Origami
Tanteidan. This mail may be important not only because it is
related to the recent issue of OUSA, but also because Origami
Tanteidan will change entirely. Make sure that they are MY words,
not Origami Tanteidan's.

It seems that Origami Tanteidan have the same problem as OUSA.
We didn't have the board members, and decided all things at
the monthly meetings held in Tokyo. Some members of OT outside
Tokyo complaint that they cannot attend the meeting, and also
that most of the activities are done in Tokyo, not other districts.

We also have a financial problem. We have sent the members the
bimonthly newsletters. (They will be upgraded and named Origami Tanteidan
     Magazine
from this May.) The annual fee of 3,000 yen
or US$30 will cover the printing and mailing cost, but it's not
enough for all of our activities. We must do many many troublesome
office work (I know many of you have had real troubles, I'm sorry
about that.) and other. We don't have our own office, but just
one desk, some cabinets, and one PC in Gallery Origami House.
Nor have we full-time officers. Many volunteers do our work, but
we must entrust some part of it to GOH. Since they are not
non-profit-organization, they cannot do it voluntary.

So we decided that we will change our structure. Those who pay
3,000 yen or US$30 will have the issues of Origami Tanteidan
Magazine. But Origami Tanteidan as an organization will no longer
exist. It won't edit the magazine nor held the conventions.
We will have an organization named Japan Origami Academic Society
(or Nihon Origami Gakkai, in Japanese) and it will do the things
OT did. The membership fee of JOAS is 5,000 yen or US$50 a year,
and it will cover the cost of the all activities of JOAS. So you
can pay 3,000 yen for the magazine and 5,000 yen for advance,
development and expansion of origami community. You may think
you want to pay for both of them or only for the magazine.

JOAS have ten board members. The current members are selected
at the monthly meetings of Origami Tanteidan. Six of them live
in/near Tokyo and one lives in Sasebo, Nagasaki. (The distance
between Tokyo and Sasebo is the same as between NYC and Chicago.)
Members of JOAS will have the right to recommend or remove a
member of the board.

We don't think of holding a convention outside Tokyo now. But
some members of OT held a small convention in Shizuoka in last
Novenber. Though OT didn't help them directly, I believe they
had not be able to hold it if it were not for OT. And I hope
JOAS can contribute to origami community in such a way (and
of course in another way).

Sorry for my many words and poor English.

 _ _ _ _ _
|         |  Hatori Koshiro (Koshiro is my first name.)
|_._._._._|          hatori@jade.dti.ne.jp
|         |      http://www.jade.dti.ne.jp/~hatori/
|_ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
 If they keep on risking failure, they're still artists. (S.Jobs)





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:12:12 -0400
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA business

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Eric Pernin wrote:

> Sorry I was born on the other side of the atlantique ocean. I guess you
> should rename it OUSA ORIGAMI LIST right now as it's only to be in
> english and for us citizens.

yes, the list is primarily in english. there are other lists in other
languages but as this one is from an english speaking country it is
considered good protocol to keep discussions in english. we're not putting
down anyone whose native language isn't english just because we prefer
that the majority of people on the list be able to understand the
messages.

it's also not only for US citizens, and neither is OUSA. OUSA, previously
named "Friends of the Origami Center of America" is BASED in the USA,
hence the name. it is by no means closed to non-us-citizens, and there are
plenty of people in its membership roster who are from europe, japan,
south america, australia, etc, etc.

we are not discriminating against you here. you have the right and the
ability anytime to become a member of OUSA. if you opt not to do so,
that's entirely not my problem.

> > and i know someone's going to bring up the idea of an OUSA list. well, it
> > seems to me that all the members of such a list would already be here, so
> > what's the point. it's not as extreme an issue as the one that spawned the
> > "unleashed" list (of which i am also a proud member)
>
> Can't you start now ? In the mean time we can start an origami list for
> all people outside of the US.

that's right, segregation is the key, and when we're done we'll wage paper
war against all you non-american folks :p

seriously, tho, if ousa wants to form their own list at some point in the
future, that'd be great. more power to them. i'd join, i guess.
unfortunately there'd be alot of redundant talk.

at this point in ousa's internet-savvy-ness, i doubt very much they'd be
able to do it effectively. if they can't even think of creating a
board-list that links members of the board from several areas of the
country, will they be able to manage an email list?

> kill them all, God will sort them out.

god was my copilot, but we crashed in the mountains and i had to eat him.

peace,
alasdair cpq





From: Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:40:49 -0700
Subject: Re: OUSA ....(Tom Hull)

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sheldon Ackerman wrote:

> I am sure that the OUSA Board Members who have access to THIS list are
> participating.

Not true.  I know both Jan Polish and Jean Baden-Gillette are both on this
list.  They're lurking, but are not saying much, are they?

Allen Parry
parry@eskimo.com





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:54:38 -0700
Subject: (OT) Re: OUSA ....(Tom Hull)

At 17:40 99/04/06 -0700, Allen Parry wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sheldon Ackerman wrote:
>
>> I am sure that the OUSA Board Members who have access to THIS list are
>> participating.
>
>Not true.  I know both Jan Polish and Jean Baden-Gillette are both on this
>list.  They're lurking, but are not saying much, are they?

Quite a barb on that question. We've already established that they're all
overworked and have little free time. Perhaps they haven't read all of this
stuff yet? V'Ann and Michael LaFosse are also members of this list. Should
we also give them a hard time?

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t: 604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331  e: josephwu@ultranet.ca
w: http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca





From: Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:02:55 -0700
Subject: Re: OUSA Discussion

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Cosette * wrote:

> Okay..this is my view.  I am a member of the OUSA.  I understand that it
> probably has some flaws in it, but doesn't every organization.  And if
> you fellow-members who are arguing so much about it are so
> dis-satisfied, why are you still members of the organization?  If you
> don't like it, then unsubscribe, and get into a local group, or start a
> group of your own where you can do everything just perfect (since you
> know everything that an organization should have and do).

Sarah,

Do you know who these people are, who have asked to run for the OUSA
Elections?  Take a look in your Paper.  You'll see their names listed
under the Affiliate section. They are the affiliate leaders of the largest
folding groups across the country.  They represent the most active element
of the Origami community outside of the New York area.  They're also the
very same support people who take on some essential roles in the annual
convention.

Allen Parry
parry@eskimo.com





From: Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:24:47 -0700
Subject: Re: (OT) Re: OUSA ....(Tom Hull)

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Joseph Wu wrote:

> >Not true.  I know both Jan Polish and Jean Baden-Gillette are both on this
> >list.  They're lurking, but are not saying much, are they?
>
> Quite a barb on that question. We've already established that they're all
> overworked and have little free time. Perhaps they haven't read all of this
> stuff yet? V'Ann and Michael LaFosse are also members of this list. Should
> we also give them a hard time?

I apologize, no barb intended.... on second thought, maybe it is
intended... I think we should be hearing from them.  I am frustrated that,
at this time, only Tom Hull is communicating.  I forgot about Michael and
V'Ann.

I know they are very aware of this issue and are listening. They are
"choosing" not to reply.  I don't think this is fair to all the people
who'd like to get more information....to find out details...to have their
questions answered.... by board members who are refusing to enter this
discussion.

I too am very busy, being 2,000 miles from home and communicating long
distance to my internet service. Right now, I am located within one of my
customers factories, as machinery is whizzing beside me. A lot is being
communicated, and they can't just take a background seat to this whole
thing.

It has been, though, my frustrated experience that we will get a formal,
terse, non-informative letter a week or two down the road.  I do know that
Thursday is their monthly board meeting where they will probably formulate
an action plan by committee.

This doesn't, though, prevent Jean and Jan (or the others) from
communicating with their constituency, rather than keeping so removed from
them.  I don't think over-worked, works as an excuse in this case.

Allen Parry
parry@eskimo.com





From: Dorothy Engleman <FoldingCA@WEBTV.NET>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 19:12:24 -0700
Subject: Re: OUSA ....

As an OrigamiUSA member, I disapprove of court action to resolve this
matter.  I believe it would be very destructive to our organization.  I
would like to see the parties involved enter into mediation such as the
Dispute Resolution services offered by the California Bar Association.

I agree that the OUSA Board needs to substantially improve their
communication with membership and open up the Board to new voices and
ideas.

Dorothy





From: Dorothy Engleman <FoldingCA@WEBTV.NET>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 19:27:19 -0700
Subject: Folding California

Toot toot!

Folding California won an award in a major educational media festival.

Dorothy, tooting my horn





From: Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:01:03 -0700
Subject: Re: OUSA ....

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Dorothy Engleman wrote:

> As an OrigamiUSA member, I disapprove of court action to resolve this
> matter.  I believe it would be very destructive to our organization.  I
> would like to see the parties involved enter into mediation such as the
> Dispute Resolution services offered by the California Bar Association.

That would be fine by me.  There is no intent by us to be distructive in
any way.  I'd love someone with expertise (whose opinion we both respect)
to make a judgement call on this.  The problem is, their non-response,
non-communication seems to say to us that as they have dug in their heels
and are unwilling to even enter into dialog.  If they continue with this
stance...what options do we have?  I am really open to suggestions?

But, hopefully, if the membership express they want non-exlusionary
elections; making them open to any member, then they would be sensitive to
their constituency.

Allen Parry
parry@eskimo.com





From: Carol Martinson <carolm47@YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 21:04:37 -0700
Subject: Re: (OT) That OUSA Thing

     At this point every idea and opinion on both sides of the issue is
equally important.  The more people that are heard from, though perhaps
not through this list, the better the organization should become.  Both
sides need to be heard from.  It is a shame that all the members of
OUSA who do not have Internet access cannot take part in this
discussion, and I apologize to those international members and others
who feel they are suffering through this discussion (but the Xuxa
e-mails were nearly as numerous). There has been an enormous benefit,
however, from hearing from people who are involved in national origami
organizations in other countries who also face similar problems.

     Most everything I was planning to say this evening has already
been covered far more ably by other people.  I would like to reiterate
that we are not seeking to tear apart OUSA or destroy what it has
accomplished.  To have made a commitment such as we have to attempt to
run for the Board is not something that is done lightly.  There are
consequences, expected and unexpected, some of which you can already
see expressed on the list as some of the e-mails verge toward personal
recriminations.  If legal action is taken it is not taken lightly for
it will open wounds that are not easily healed.  Before I committed to
running in this election, I approached another active member of Origami
Minnesota with my worst possible scenario of being drummed out of OUSA
and possible fallout onto other Minnesota members.  His reaction
stunned me since I thought he would try to dissuade me.  He said that
Origami Minnesota would live or die DESPITE OUSA (quite true whatever
the outcome of this issue), and that it was irrelevant to our future.
should that be the way OUSA is perceived?

     So everyone, continue to express your opinions.  If you like what
OUSA is doing, say what you like and why.  Don't just say I support you
and leave it at that.  If you don't like what is going on, say why and
what you think needs changing, and if you have suggestions for
improvements, send those in also.  If you have mixed feelings, those
need to be heard too.  This is your chance.  A thorough discussion of
the issues can only benefit the organization.

     For anyone who tries to reach me at this e-mail address about this
issue, if I do not get back to you immediately I am not ignoring you.
I am currently computerless (a situation that will be corrected in the
near future) and am renting time to send this to the list.

     Carol Martinson

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com





From: andalar <andalar@AIMNET.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 22:08:16 -0800
Subject: Re: OUSA ....(Tom Hull)

>At 05:40 PM 4/6/99 -0700, Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM> wrote:
>>
>>Not true.  I know both Jan Polish and Jean Baden-Gillette are both on this
>>list.  They're lurking, but are not saying much, are they?
>>
>
>Sorry, but OrigamiUSA's lawyer has recommended that we not discuss this
>matter publicly.
>
>Marc

Well, that's convenient ... and helpful....

I'd like to hear more from current members of the board, even if they have
to talk among themselves to produce a unified answer.  I would really
rather know their side than not know and be tempted to make assumptions.  I
would really like to hear why this can't be spoken of publicly.  To me, the
degree of avoidance seems out of proportion to the problem.

Laura Mappin





From: Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 22:11:24 -0700
Subject: Minnesota Affiliate

Hello folks,

Many of you are perhaps not aware that Carol Martinson's group in
Minnesota is one of the largest groups in the country....to many's
surprise, including mine.  So little is heard about them.  They have been
one of the quiet giants.  Incorporated as Origami Minnesota for a number
of years, they even have an attorney sitting on their board of directors.
They are very well organized and have many dedicated people serving the
Origami community.

I thought you'd like to know....

Allen Parry
parry@eskimo.com





From: Meristein@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 22:49:37 -0400 (
Subject: Re: Folding California

Mazel tov, Dorothy. How do we get to view it?

Merida





From: Maldon Wilson <Maldon7929@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 23:14:57 -0400 (
Subject: A reason for joining OUSA.

So you can tell friends about OUSA activities.

Big pat-on-the-back to Allen Parry.  Bringing this discussion to a public
forum has been delayed for far too long.

Maldon (not a member) Wilson





From: "John E. Clark" <jeclark@CAMALOTT.COM>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 23:44:13 -0500
Subject: OUSA Discussion

I am sorry.  I don't know many people as I am new to origami, but please.  I
did not join this list to hear about this fight or that fight.  I just
wanted to meet people that do origami.  That can show me the ins and outs.
So I may share my knowledge with my family and friends.  I use origami to
easy my arthritis and to help brighten the days of my patients.  This is why
we talk to each other.  We are a "family" rather you like it or not.  We are
a origami family.  I do not do this for fame, profit, or any other selfish
reason.  So can we please just get back to what this is about.  The growing
of Origami??  Thanks

John E. Clark
Abilene, Texas





From: Marc Kirschenbaum <marckrsh@PIPELINE.COM>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 00:23:44 -0400
Subject: Re: OUSA ....(Tom Hull)

At 05:40 PM 4/6/99 -0700, Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM> wrote:
>
>Not true.  I know both Jan Polish and Jean Baden-Gillette are both on this
>list.  They're lurking, but are not saying much, are they?
>

Sorry, but OrigamiUSA's lawyer has recommended that we not discuss this
matter publicly.

Marc





From: Dorothy Engleman <FoldingCA@WEBTV.NET>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 00:24:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Folding California

Thanks, Merida!

When I was clearing music for Folding California, I asked one of the
publishers what was the best way to obtain licenses.  "With money", he
replied.

And that is why at present, Folding California can only be aired on the
municipal channel of the City of Santa Monica and screened at Film and
Video Festivals in the USA.

I am committed to trying to find a distributor who will pick up Folding
California and the licenses for home video sales and worldwide
distribution.

Dorothy





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 00:58:56 -0400
Subject: Re: OUSA ....

Tom Hull indited:

+Second, I really would like Allen or Steve or anyone else to
+respond to my argument that an upheaval of 4 OUSA Board seats
+right now would be going too fast.  Steve Buck claims that this
+is not what will necessarily happen, but "the letter" clearly
+requests that all members vote for the write-in candidates.

That "the letter" also clearly states that the Board would ignore such
votes.  Perhaps that doesn't make it any less threatening to The Board,
but it made it instantly clear to me that the point of the action was
not revolution, but a wake up call to the Board.

+and Aldo Putignano would be ousted.  My opinion remains that
+if this happens then various OUSA operations would be threatened.

This part has me most frustrated.  How is it that those folks have to
be on the Board to function?  From my personal, local, experience,
being on a Board takes _away_ from getting "real work" done.  Perhaps
the OUSA Board is different from any I've had experience with.

This issue is especially near and dear to me as the local Pittsburgh
club is going through the machinations to become a real non-profit
club, with real bylaws, and a structure based on shared
responsibilities instead of burdening the President/Board with all the
work.  Our _hope_ is that the Board's role will be to set direction,
approve expenditures, etc... Groups of volunteers (who do not have to
be on the Board) can share the labors, and get the glories, for the
efforts expended and rewards reaped..  Perhaps that is a pie in the sky
goal.

+All of this is done by NY origamists.  So in a very real sense
+OUSA exists via the labor of NY origamists.  Separating the
+two in terms of labor would be impossible.

I'll buy that.

+they're not.  But I don't see how there can be a clean
+break between OUSA the the NY origamists.

I'm not hopeful either.  I would like to argue that if the Board were
not loaded with locals, that in and of itself would create a
distinction between when the local folks meet to do local stuff, and
when the Board meets to do National stuff.  So long as the two are
intermingled it will be just too easy to keep blurring the lines.  Yes,
esp. as a transition, it might be more work.  At the _least_ people
will have to consciously "change hats."

+projects too.  I view that as taking up most of our time,
+anyway.  Perhaps we should focus more of our efforts in
+setting direction for the organization, but frankly we
+haven't had the time!

I think that is _*the*_ biggest problem.   It also seems to be the touchiest
item, so I'll hold my comments for the time being.

-Doug





From: DORIGAMI@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 02:03:09 -0400 (
Subject: Email resent by mistake from Dorigami

I just switched to 4.0 America Online.  There was a button that said unsent
mail which I hit and thought I was just sending a couple of letters I had
just written the last few days that had not been sent.  Much to my horror
letters were either sent or resent from as much as two years ago or
more......How embarrassing......I knew I shouldnt change from 3.0.  I was so
happy there.....I don't think I understand what happened since I thought
these letters had been sent at the time and they were still stored somewhere
in this mysterious computer........Sorry, Dorigami





From: Dave Venables <davevenables@USA.NET>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 06:43:55 -0600 (
Subject: Re: [Re: Elias Animal Base]

When I put together the three Neal Elias booklets taken from Neals notebooks I
thought I had covered all the cross referencing but somehow missed out the
animal base..... Sorry to all those who have been inconvienienced.

What became known as the Elias animal base was in fact based on a model of a
Bull by a folder named John Williams from the UK. John was never active in the
BOS so far as I can tell but he corresponded with Neal briefley in the 60's
and who documented his Bull in his notebooks as model 862 dated July 1966. Of
John I know nothing else. Neal developed this use of the windmill base
producing many models over the next few years probably the best well known
being the Moment of Truth, and  his superb Bull and Elephant. There are about
25 models or so made using the base.
BOS booklet 10 - Neal Elias Selected works which features 10 of my favorite
models is about to be re-published by the BOS I understand after being out of
print for many years. This booklet includes the Bull and has a folding
sequence for the base. The diagrams in this booklet are my illustrations and
not Neals notes as per the three booklets mentioned earlier.

I have done a few sketches of the foling sequence for the base and will
willingly send them to anyone requesting - private emails please to
Davevenables@usa.net

Best Wishes

Dave Venables

Michael Gibson <mig@ISD.CANBERRA.EDU.AU> wrote:
On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Mark and Theresa wrote:

> I made an elephant at a convention which starts with this base. Since
> then I have seen many other animals with the same base, but no starting
> instructions. I have the 3 large format BOS booklets but these refer to
> models that are not included. I could take the elephant apart, but I
> doubt if I could get it back together again!

I believe there is a fourth Elias booklet available where Dave Venables
"cleaned up" some Elias models and diagramed proper steps (I'm sure Nick
Robinson could verify/correct this). Anyway, the bull included in this
booklet also starts from the animal base, and of course has the steps to
show you how it is constructed. All I can remember is that it starts with
a 2*1 rectangle.

Hope this helps

Michael Janssen-Gibson

____________________________________________________________________
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From: Allan findlay <a_findlay@EXCHANGE.CREATIONS.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 09:09:55 +0100
Subject: Re: OUSA ....

>From a non member.....(& non US citizen)

>That would be fine by me.  There is no intent by us to be distructive in
>any way.  I'd love someone with expertise (whose opinion we both respect)
>to make a judgement call on this.  The problem is, their non-response,
>non-communication seems to say to us that as they have dug in their heels
>and are unwilling to even enter into dialog.  If they continue with this
>stance...what options do we have?  I am really open to suggestions?

The "What options do we have?" or "They made us do it." type of stance is
madness, you are _not_ being forced to do anything, if you bring legal
action then it is because you _want_ to do something to change OUSA.

If the members are asked to vote for "nationwide board membership" and there
is not a _significant_ majority then surely any dissatisfied members can
leave OUSA and form their own group, the threat of legal action sounds quite
silly.
--------------------------
        Allan           (a_findlay@exchange.creations.co.uk)





From: Michael Gibson <mig@ISD.CANBERRA.EDU.AU>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 09:41:57 +1000
Subject: Re: Elias Animal Base

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Mark and Theresa wrote:

> I made an elephant at a convention which starts with this base. Since
> then I have seen many other animals with the same base, but no starting
> instructions. I have the 3 large format BOS booklets but these refer to
> models that are not included. I could take the elephant apart, but I
> doubt if I could get it back together again!

I believe there is a fourth Elias booklet available where Dave Venables
"cleaned up" some Elias models and diagramed proper steps (I'm sure Nick
Robinson could verify/correct this). Anyway, the bull included in this
booklet also starts from the animal base, and of course has the steps to
show you how it is constructed. All I can remember is that it starts with
a 2*1 rectangle.

Hope this helps

Michael Janssen-Gibson
