




From: Carlos Alberto Furuti <furuti@AHAND.UNICAMP.BR>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:42:42 -0200
Subject: Re: Less Talk & Apology, Xuxa

I know, we are all tired of this issue, but...

>>From: "Llana L. Harmon" <llharmon@PRIMENET.COM>
>>Subject:      Less talk -- more folding
>>
>>I also call for an improvement in what this forum has recently
>>degenerated into.  How about more folding and less FLOGGING.
I don't think we're flogging anyone here, just expressing opinions...

>>For all of those expert folders out there, it might be better for
>>everyone to share their expertise in folding to assist those like myself
>>...Someone teaches a model.  Why is this forum not used for that purpose
>>more?
I don't claim myself an expert, but this list has provided a lot
of voluntary hints and suggestions.

>>Who knows, I might even get someone to help me understand steps 54-55 of
>>Robert Langs Cicada.
Do you mean the one in TCBO or OI&TK? Just ask (and wait for fetching
the book at home).

>>From: Kenny1414@AOL.COM
>>Subject:      Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)
>>
>>What you saw were the more advanced folders
>>criticizing Hector's origami style,
>>NOT criticising Hector.
Perfectly agreed, except perhaps the generalization "advanced".
Like it or not, any artform benefits from criticism, be it literature,
motion pictures, painting or origami.

>>...and no painting. I think that's called Purist Origami.
I think it has no particular name...

>>...from an equilateral triangle.
>>
>>A lot of British Origami allows use of a long
>>rectangle instead of a square, with results that
>>would be hard to with a square. The Dump Truck
Since you can create any rectangle or equilateral/right
triangle from a (sufficiently large) square with folds
only, that's not a great issue. "Hard" means only the
additional thickness and obvious waste of paper surface.

>>...I would argue that Rubber Balloon Animals
>>are a kind of Origami.
You're sure to raise a few eyebrows here.

>>...I believe the discussion got carried away.
>>When it was said that Hector's folds are not origami,
[MY MAIN POINT] No one said Hector's work is not origami --- only
it *deviates* from the more established notion of "origami",
especially since the original post **compared it with Lang's
and Montroll's work**, which could cause a few disappointments.

>>...For the advanced folders, and a lot of the intermediate
>>...and made too easy by the cutting and painting.
>>
>>Such folders were being told what kind of Origami to
>>expect, because they would be disappointed to buy
>>the book hoping for the more difficult origami.
Please Kenneth, the point is not ease/difficulty [one could
argue cutting makes things easier; but consider folding in
the airplane seat with no scissors]. It's how much
the finished model's effect is achieved with _folding_ and
how much with _other_ techniques (painting or cutting).

>>...I believe what started the thread you saw was advanced
>>folders talking about the technical level of Hector's book.
Almost there, see above

>>There are people who do not like the very
>>complicated Purist Origami because
>>it is too difficult.
The so-called "Purist" origami is not necessarily
complicated, neither the reverse is true --- see Pureland origami

>>...I hope I have not made things worse. It's hard work
>>trying to explain this.
Sure. And reinforce our regards concerning Hector.

        Sincerely,
                Carlos
        furuti@ahand.unicamp.br www.ahand.unicamp.br/~furuti





From: Chinh Nguyen <chinhsta@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:27:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Owl model, but a little more complex

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Michael Gibson wrote:

> Actually, to follow up my last message, there is a model by KOMATSU Hideo,
> in the 4th Tanteidan (I'm saying this work aloud as I type to practise
> my pronunciation :}) but I have it listed as a "Kingfisher". I don't have
> the actual photo with me at work, only a translated contents list.
>
> Is it a kingfisher or an owl?

It is a kingfisher (which, as its name implies, fishes :).





From: Rob Moes <robert.moes@SNET.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:28:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Owl model, but a little more complex

Doug says:

>The Kingfisher by KOMATSU Hideo is on pages 141 to 147 of the 4th collection.
>The Owl is not in 2,3, or 4, that I could find, so I think it must have been
>in one of the issues of the Tanteidan Newsletter...

That's very disappointing!  I, too, would love to track down diagrams of
this model if they exist.

Thanks in advance to anybody who's working on the search.

Rob
robert.moes@snet.net





From: "K.A. Lundberg" <klundber@MNSINC.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:35:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

Dear Xuxu,

I'm so sorry to hear about Hector please wish him my best.  I am
curious why the original German publisher of his book choose to use a
different biography for him.  Did they feel the true story was too
depressing for this type of book?

Kalei - klundber+AEA-mnsinc.com +AHwAfA- ICQ 23969466
http://www.monumental.com/klundber





From: "L. Hayashi" <lmh@COMPUSMART.AB.CA>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:38:23 -0700
Subject: Mesh folding

Hi Everyone,
I was in a local craft store and they were selling  mesh like screen for
     folding origami.  Has anyone tried it and with what results and models?
     The mesh came in assorted colors and sizes and showed the crane as the
     model.

Lynda





From: Sy Chen <sychen@EROLS.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:42:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

Thank you for sharing the inside story and background of your brother. I do
wish him well and keep on his art works and contributions.

Sy Chen

-----Original Message-----
From: Xuxa Rojas <RojasXu@AOL.COM>
To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

>Thanks you Kenny,
>
>My English is no real good.  Please sorry from me.  Hector has 45 years,
and
>start to fold when he has 15 years, and run away from house ours.   During
3
>years, he live on street, and make animals for pesos.  Soon he have others
>make things with him, names Julio y Andre.  They sell on street for to get
>food.
>
>He come home after big fight, where lost his hand.  He have only bag of
paint
>bird and animal along.  No could he fold any more.  He writes book then.
>
>When Hector has 35 years, book has out in store.  Hector hand get sick
more,
>and he have lose arm.
>
>Today Hector sick more.  We hope he ok.
>
>I not understand what is "Brill"?
>
>Xuxa





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:00:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

>
> Dear Xuxu,
>
> I'm so sorry to hear about Hector please wish him my best.  I am
> curious why the original German publisher of his book choose to use a
> different biography for him.  Did they feel the true story was too
> depressing for this type of book?
>
> Kalei - klundber+AEA-mnsinc.com +AHwAfA- ICQ 23969466
> http://www.monumental.com/klundber
>
Probably.

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Michael Gibson <mig@ISD.CANBERRA.EDU.AU>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:13:15 +1100
Subject: Re: Owl model, but a little more complex

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Joseph Wu wrote:

> That would be KOMATSU Hideo's owl. I believe the diagrams appear in the 4th
> Origami Tanteidan Convention Collection.
>

A quick check of the aforementioned collection makes that a negative (same
goes for issues 2&3).

Regards,

Michael Janssen-Gibson





From: Carlos Alberto Furuti <furuti@AHAND.UNICAMP.BR>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:19:00 -0200
Subject: Re: Programs and magazines

>>From: Jeff DeHerdt <jadeherd@IUPUI.EDU>
>>Subject:      Programs and magazines
>>
>>        Can anybody tell me where to find the magazines and programs
>>mentioned on the list(lik ORU and the Tanteidan programs)? Are some of
Tanteidan "programs"? Do you mean the annual convention books?

>>but I was just wondering if there was a way to subscribe to them.
After about 16 issues, ORU magazine was cancelled, so you
cannot subscribe any more. Many back issues, the two diagram book
compilations, and Tanteidan convention books 2, 3, and 4 are
available at www.sasugabooks.com (no affiliation).

Some free origami software is available at the origami archives
rugcis.rug.nl. CD-ROMs like The Secret Life of Paper are
available commercially.

        Sincerely,
                Carlos
        furuti@ahand.unicamp.br www.ahand.unicamp.br/~furuti





From: Michael Gibson <mig@ISD.CANBERRA.EDU.AU>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:24:01 +1100
Subject: Re: Owl model, but a little more complex

Actually, to follow up my last message, there is a model by KOMATSU Hideo,
in the 4th Tanteidan (I'm saying this work aloud as I type to practise
my pronunciation :}) but I have it listed as a "Kingfisher". I don't have
the actual photo with me at work, only a translated contents list.

Is it a kingfisher or an owl?

Regards,
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Michael Janssen-Gibson                 e-mail: mig@isd.canberra.edu.au
ISD, Library                   phone/voice mail: +61 6 (06)  201 5271
University of Canberra
PO Box 1 Belconnen, ACT 2616





From: Lisa Hodsdon <Lisa_Hodsdon@HMCO.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:27:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Lucky star paper

Another material for making lucky stars is ribbon.

I've used 1/2 in. to 3/4 in. wide plastic ribbon to make these stars.
It comes in nice colors (metallics are particularly nice); you don't
have to worry about whether it's double-sided (an issue if you're
making Swedish Stars); and it comes in nice straight pre-cut strips.
I have about the same puff to non-puff ratio as with paper.  As
with cranes, when you make a large number of them to display
together, the quality of each individual star isn't very important.

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate. . .

Lisa
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com





From: Lisa Hodsdon <Lisa_Hodsdon@HMCO.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:56:40 -0500
Subject: Knitting? Art? [Was Re: origami defined]

Eric Eros wrote:
>so I guess I would say that it's
>POSSIBLE to create art through knitting, but no one's done it yet

Actually, there was a woman at Art & Math '98 who was knitting
fractal wall-hangings. They were art in my book. Perhaps not
_great_ art, but museum quality none-the-less. I'm not going to
try to find her name unless someone's really interested.

I guess the point is that _any_ activity that produces a product can
produce _art_. I think Joseph's on the right track when he says
(Sorry, I must paraphrase---I don't have the message anymore):

      Just because it's bad origami doesn't mean it isn't art.

Similarly, just because it's good craftmanship doesn't mean it's art.

Lisa (why do these discussions always happen when I have no time?)
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:28:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

Xuxa Rojas wrote:
>
>
> I not understand what is "Brill"?
>
> Xuxa

Brill is a grump old flat fish that swims off the English coast, folds
itself in to triangles, eats bad shrimp and throws up.

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *          Origamist:         *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Some one who thinks paper   *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * thin, means thick and bulky *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:36:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Mesh folding

Lynda Hayashi indited:

> I was in a local craft store and they were selling  mesh like screen for
> folding origami.  Has anyone tried it and with what results and models?  The
> mesh came in assorted colors and sizes and showed the crane as the model.

If you are refering to the stuff sold under the label "ColorMesh" I have some
info that might be relevant, so I'll presume that is the stuff.  It seems to
be available fairly widely in craft stores (Michael's, Pat Catan's, though
those names might be local to Pittsburgh, PA, I don't know), as well as stamp
art stores and some artisan paper stores.  It is also available at the "big
three" online origami stores. (http://www.origami-usa.org/,
http://www.fascinating-folds.com/, http://www.kimscrane.com/).

I first tried this stuff when Joseph Wu introduced it to the Origami USA
convention in 1998.  I was able to secure three pieces of it from him.  Two
white sheets I cut into hexagons and made into his Snowflake model.  The third
I foolishly parted with to a proprieter of a local Fabric store who claimed to
have a contact in Japan.

Gladly, this "paper" has become available.  I have folded a few of Kawasaki's
Rose with Wu's Calyx from it.  I have several pictures of one of those models
on my web pages:  http://dropit.pgh.net/~dwp/origami/Origami.html then follow
the Kawasaki's Rose link.  I apologize for the lack of quality in the
thumbnail images, the real full size images are much better.

Folding ColorMesh (and probably most mesh in general) can be interesting.
Since you can see through the material, you get all kinds of interesting
interference patterns when you fold one layer over another, which can make it
hard to see if you are lined up on your landmarks.  Additionally, and this may
only apply to ColorMesh, when you unfold a flap, it can be difficult to see to
the resulting crease line.  ColorMesh will remember the crease, but seeing it
yourself...

I love folding this stuff, because of the look of the final result, and also
because of the challenge of the folding itself.  Folding in the air helps a
lot, because you can manipulate the model to catch the light so that you can
see the near invisible crease lines.  I also find folding on a ruled surface
(many self healing cutting mats have a grid printed on them) helps.  Yes, it
does create more interference, but the trick is to use that to help you,
instead of letting it hinder you!

It may not be the perfect "paper" for all models, but it can be fun to fold if
you have the right outlook/attitude when you start!

As with all origami, and most of life, Experiment, Experiment, Experiment!

-D'gou





From: "James M. Sakoda" <James_Sakoda@BROWN.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:23:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Owl model, but a little more complex

>I know Patty was interested in simpler owl models, but there is one
>owl model that sticks in my mind...
>
>It was taught at the OrigamiUSA NYC '98 Convention. I can't remember
>the name of the creator, and I won't hazard a guess. Would someone
>tell me who designed that excellent owl? Also, is it diagrammed in a
>publication? I tried the model search and I don't believe I found it...
>
>Thanks a lot,
>
>Carmine
>==
>-------
>Carmine Di Chiara
>carmine_dichiara@yahoo.com
>        Beyond each corner new directions lie in wait.
>                - Stanislaw Lec
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

It may not be the owl that was taughkt in NYC, but I have a modern-looking
(straight lines) one which is probably not for beginners in Midern Origami,
which was republished by Dover a year ago. It stands up nicely and can be
displayed on a shelf.  James M. Sakoda





From: Xuxa Rojas <RojasXu@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:43:32 -0500 (
Subject: Hector, ayudame

Please, I will up clear story about Hector.

Arm in photo it is not real.  German man not did want to say about Hector bad
child.  Hector he play violin, use arm not real for bow.   He learn and never
he play front of others.  No every body has rich to go out other place and
play.  All you fold papers are money.  Hector y Xuxa no have so much.

Xuxa





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:09:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Less talk -- more folding

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Llana L. Harmon wrote:
> I also call for an improvement in what this forum has recently
> degenerated into.  How about more folding and less FLOGGING.

I think that what you call "flogging" (I'd rather call it "discussing") is
a very important purpose of this forum. You can fold entirely on your own,
struggle with the models, try to fold from diagrams etc. You practically
do not need any origami contacts for that.

But if you have thoughts and questions that go beyond the folding of a
model, like a particular design philosophy, or origami style, or the
artistical merit of folding, then you need someone to discuss these
things. Now, meetings between folders are very rare (the next folder I
know lives 100km from me), and here in this forum, there are many
outspoken individuals, knowledgeable people, *real* artists, people
interested in mathematics, and even some of the demi-gods of origami (I
won't tell any names ;-) )

So instead of confining "high-brow" discussions to the precious hours of
conventions, you can have these discussions all year round -- and with an
audience that is more diverse than it could be at any convention.
Sometimes these discussions get out of hand, yes, but I wouldn't want to
miss this forum at any price. Where else can you have discussions about
origami history, mathematical methods in origami, paper preparation, or
artistical perspectives of paperfolding, if not here?

> For all of those expert folders out there, it might be better for
> everyone to share their expertise in folding to assist those like myself
> who are directionally disabled (left handed) and those who sometimes
> find themselves unable to fold a complex model.

I'm sorry, but can you tell me which particular question you are referring
to? As far as I can remember most of (if not all) the questions about how
to fold a model have been answered.

BTW: I'm right-handed, but I find that when I fold, I use both hands
practically to an equal extent.

> This is what happens when anyone goes to an origami meeting.  Someone
> teaches a model.  Why is this forum not used for that purpose more?

Perhaps because no-one posts such questions? I'm sorry, but if you don't
ask, you cannot expect to get answers. The good thing about this forum is
that a) you can post any question you want, and b) because of the diverse
audience, most of the questions get answered.

Yours, Sebastian                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:40:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Hector mi hermano

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Xuxa Rojas wrote:
> I see you mail and think that you are not real origami.  Paper is
> folding painting. Jo Wu is probable not good origami.  If was he, is not
> to be mailing to every body so much to tell story.  I think Jo Wu can
> not paint good, or he fold better.

Great. From honest criticism to personal insults in five days. Could be a
new record, at least on this mailing list. Do you really think this is
good style or will help your brother's reputation in any way?

Honestly, I cannot understand you. I understand that your brother Hector
is not only a paperfolder, but also a musician (and a painter, too?) If he
is, he must be used to criticism, both by peers and by professional
critics, and I believe that professional critics can sometimes be much
harsher that us here. I think that an artist must always question himself
and his works in order to improve himself. He must look critically at his
older works and determine what is bad about them, in order to improve in
future.

Now, I'd be happy to be criticised honestly and competently, even if it
was just once -- because saying that everything is nice and everything is
good gets us nowhere; even worse, it clouds our judgement and prevents us
from forming criteria in our art. I think most people are too polite to
criticise honestly, and regret this very much. When I go to a convention
with a few mediocre models in my backpack, and everybody tells me how nice
my stuff is, I feel that they must all be phonies -- the proportion
between praise and criticism simply isn't right. (Well, OK, if you are
condemned by a dozen people, this can severeley lower your self-esteem --
but a certain amount of stamina is simply part of the game.)

In my opinion, the right answer to criticism is not "please don't
criticise me, please don't talk bad about me". The right answer is either
"Yes, what I did was not so good, and I'd do it differently if I had
another chance (or that's simply all I can do, well, bad luck)", or "No, I
still believe I was right then, and for the following reasons."

Or simply ignore the criticism if you want to; but you cannot prevent
criticism from happening.

And please note that we do not talk bad about Hector himself; I do not
know him, and I will presume for the moment that he is a very nice guy.
But when someone praises his book, and my opinion differs from his, I will
state my opinion -- not in order to harm Hector or to insult him, but so
that people do not buy this book with false expectations and are
disappointed when they open it.

I hope your brother gets well soon; if he does and is interested, please
show him the postings on this mailing list about his book, and let him
write an answer himself. I'm very much interested in his opinion in this
matter.

Yours, Sebastian ("Oh yes, and I think that Dave Brill sometimes makes too
many compromises in order to obtain a closed back -- Ooops, blasphemy!")
                                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:16:57 +0100
Subject: Re: Mask Origami

On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Jeff DeHerdt wrote:
>         Are there any books specifically on origami masks.

I have seen the following book on masks at a friend's:

@Book{Pavarin:Maschere,
  author =       {Franco Pavarin},
  title =        {Origami Maschere Animate},
  publisher =    {Il Castello},
  year =         {1988},
}

The masks are rather nice, and some of them are, as the title implies, action
models; ie. they open and close their mouth if pulled at the right place.

Yours, Sebastian                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)





From: =?utf-7?B?VEhPUktJTEQgUytBTmctTkRFUkcrQU1VLVJE?= <thokiyenn@GET2NET.DK>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:12:35 +0100
Subject: ars gratia artis

It is about time
that we get a definition of art +ACE-

Kalmon the great and glorios





From: Martin <mrcinc@SILCOM.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:59:54 -0800
Subject: Arm in photo it is not real.

This is one of the best exchanges I have ever read -- anywhere. Beats
Tom Stoppard, Beckett, Ionesco, Pinter and even Saturday Night Live.
Keep it going.

>

--
Martin R. Carbone
1227 De La Vina St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101
Tel: 805-965-5574 Fax: 805-965-2414

WEBSITES: http://www.papershops.com <<or>>
http://www.modelshops.com <<or>> http://www.silcom.com/~mrcinc





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:52:30 -0700
Subject: Sure it's are Art, but is it Origami?

THORKILD S+ANg-NDERG+AMU-RD wrote:
>
> It is about time
> that we get a definition of art +ACE-
>
> Kalmon the great and glorios

I heard once that Andy Warhol, said that art is anything the artist says
it is, and then proceeded to sign his name on a bunch of soup cans and
sell them as art.

There are lots of definitions of art involving terms like "form" and
"space" and "higher human ideals"...  Groan....

Tell you what I'll put out a simple definition and you tell me what you
think.  Art is any object which people desire, not because it has any
useful purpose, but because they just like to look at it.

>From that perspective cutting, gluing, painting, or anything else is
irrelevant as far as whether the finished product is art.  So if people
like Hector Rojas finished modals, they are just as much art as any
other piece of origami.

But I think that misses the point.  To me the joy of origami, comes from
the fact that I can take a simply shaped piece paper and, with nothing
more than my ten fingers, transform it into some fascinating object.
It's like a kind of magic.  I start out with a square piece of paper,
and end up with a bird that flaps its wings!  And yet, it is the same
piece of paper!  Nothing was added, and nothing was taken away.  Oh, and
by the way the process of creating it was fun too.

And that is where I think books like those by Hector Rojas fall short.
Sure a child my enjoy creating Hector's little animals.  And if she is
careful she will have a finished model she can be proud of.  But will
she have the same experience the rest of us have from paper folding.  I
don't think so.  Sure the models are simple and a child learns them
easily.  But there are plenty of children's books on origami that do
teach them the same joy that the rest of us feel, that it seems to me
that books like Hector Rojas are unnecessary.

There's a saying.  "I may not know art, but I know what I like."  Well I
may not be able to define Origami, but I know what I like to fold.  And
this ain't it.

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *       Oh, by the way        *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   *   Who is +ACE- anyway?      *
420 Chipeta Way #120                *                             *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Carmine Di Chiara <carmine_dichiara@YAHOO.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:21:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Less talk -- more folding

---"Llana L. Harmon" <llharmon@PRIMENET.COM> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> For all of those expert folders out there, it might be better for
> everyone to share their expertise in folding to assist those like
myself
> who are directionally disabled (left handed) and those who sometimes
> find themselves unable to fold a complex model.
>
> <snip>
>
> David

Dave, I was really interested in your observation that your
left-handedness was getting in the way of making complex origami
models. Has it happened often? Do you think it's because the creator
was possibly right-handed?

I'm left-handed, and I haven't come across any model where I felt I
was at a disadvantage because of my left-handedness.

Carmine
==
-------
Carmine Di Chiara
carmine_dichiara@yahoo.com
        Beyond each corner new directions lie in wait.
                - Stanislaw Lec
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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From: Dorothy Engleman <FoldingCA@WEBTV.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:29:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Sure it's are Art, but is it Origami?

Much better Kalei and much appreciation!

Dorothy





From: Jane Rosemarin <jfrmpls@SPACESTAR.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:37:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Sure it's are Art, but is it Origami?

Thoki's message:
>> It is about time
>> that we get a definition of art +ACE-

Alas, Kim, I think Thoki was humorously commenting on the control
characters that appear in Kalei's postings for those of us with primitive
e-mail software. We see lines of gibberish, of which "art +ACE-" is only
a small example.

I know that if Valerie Vann were still on the list, she would long since
have asked Kalei to send mail using only ASCII characters, but I just try
to read between the lines.

-Jane





From: "K.A. Lundberg" <klundber@MNSINC.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:14:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

Joseph Wu:
+AD4-Out of curiosity, what does it say in the book?
+AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXw-
There is a short introduction to the book, four paragraphs long,
written in the first person singular.

It says, paraphrasing so as not to break any copyright laws :), that
Hector Rojas spent his childhood in La Paz, Bolivia.  His parents were
not able to afford many ready-made toys so as children he and his
sibling/s learned to use their imagination to make their own from
various materials.  This is when he folded his first paper forms
basing them on the natural environment they loved.

It was much later, when he arrived in Europe, that he learned about
the existence of origami.  There are a couple of statements concerning
what he knows about the history of origami including the statement
that he thinks it probably originated as good-luck charms that were
folded and attached to gifts.

After some suggestions on how to create a natural landscape for the
models. The introduction is concluded with the hope that the book will
not only provide origami models but will stimulate the reader to
appreciate the natural beauty around themselves.

According to the publication history, the book was originally
published in Germany in 1991, and translated into English in 1992.

Kalei - klundber+AEA-mnsinc.com +AHwAfA- ICQ 23969466
http://www.monumental.com/klundber





From: "Dolphin G." <dolphing@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:33:33 -0800 (
Subject: Re: Right angle division into sevenths

Thanks Jeff and Robert for responding.  I looked through the archives,
and found something similar to what you just posted.  Great model, by
the way.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Katherine Nelson <revkat@EARTHLING.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:42:54 -0800
Subject: Re: directional disabled?

I'm left-handed in my thought processes.  I've developed habits that make
folding complex models easier, as I have to approach folds from a
particular direction to make them work.  It's not a matter of having a
dominant side/limb/hand, it's that my brain is in backwards :)

At the worst, I rotate a diagram or a model until it clicks mentally.

Katherine

----------
> From: Michael Gibson <mig@ISD.CANBERRA.EDU.AU>
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: directional disabled?
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:09 PM

> Just as an aside, do you really find being left-handed a directional
> disability when folding? I ask this being "sinistral" myself, though I
> never thought about it affecting the practice of origami in the same way
> that it might, for example, affect learning to knit. I confess to not
> being a 'purist leftie' ie. cutlery settings don't pose any problems ;}
>
> Or were you just being funny? (and hence making my question officially
> "stoopid")
>
> Regards,
> Michael Janssen-Gibson
>
> (and why the conflict between signature name and e-mail name? I was
> married after the work account was opened, and have never got around to
> asking 'them' to change it)





From: "K.A. Lundberg" <klundber@MNSINC.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:05:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Sure it's are Art, but is it Origami?

Kim observes:
+AD4-Tell you what I'll put out a simple definition and you tell me what
you
+AD4-think.  Art is any object which people desire, not because it has any
+AD4-useful purpose, but because they just like to look at it.

+AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8-
Gotta admit I love this definition...mind if I steal it?

Kim:
+AD4-But I think that misses the point.  To me the joy of origami, comes
from
+AD4-the fact that I can take a simply shaped piece paper and, with
nothing
+AD4-more than my ten fingers, transform it into some fascinating object.
+AD4-It's like a kind of magic.  I start out with a square piece of paper,
+AD4-and end up with a bird that flaps its wings+ACE-  And yet, it is the same
+AD4-piece of paper+ACE-  Nothing was added, and nothing was taken away.  Oh,
and
+AD4-by the way the process of creating it was fun too.
+AD4-
+AD4-And that is where I think books like those by Hector Rojas fall
short.
+AD4-Sure a child my enjoy creating Hector's little animals.  And if she
is
+AD4-careful she will have a finished model she can be proud of.  But will
+AD4-she have the same experience the rest of us have from paper folding.
+AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXw-
Sorry, I can't resist...while many of the models in the book use cut
and paste several do not.  The baby elephant(another uncut square
model), while not the most elegant of models will trumpet if you push
on its ears...is this the magic of which you speak +ADw-grin+AD4-.  Here is
the question I think the book poses to us as origami freaks, and I
think it is a question worth examination.  If I take your flapping
bird model, and after enjoying the magic of the folding, I then
proceed to further my enjoyment by painting it to look like a
particular kind of bird -- Have I broken some law in origami that
makes the painted model something less that the unpainted one?  Would
it make the model underneath the paint not origami?

Kalei - klundber+AEA-mnsinc.com +AHwAfA- ICQ 23969466
http://www.monumental.com/klundber





From: "K.A. Lundberg" <klundber@MNSINC.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:14:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Sure it's are Art, but is it Origami?

Jane:
>Alas, Kim, I think Thoki was humorously commenting on the control
>characters that appear in Kalei's postings for those of us with
primitive
>e-mail software. We see lines of gibberish, of which "art +ACE-" is
only
>a small example.
____________________
Oops...Roberto did write me...and I thought I had corrected it since
he didn't write me again.  Is this better?

Kalei - klundber@mnsinc.com || ICQ 23969466
http://www.monumental.com/klundber





From: Thomas C Hull <tch@ABYSS.MERRIMACK.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:15:01 -0500
Subject: Two origami-math sightings

Yo Yo Yo!

Wow!  Two origami-math sightings in one week!

(1) The current issue of Scientific American has an article
on using origami tessellations to model paper crumpling.
In particular it talks about Tibor Tarnai's work.  It's
in the "Mathematical Recreations" column by Ian Stewart.

(2) This month's issue of The American Mathematical Monthly
has an article called "More on Paperfolding" by Dmitry Fucsh
and another guy I can't remember right now.  It's about the
mathematics of ** curved ** creases, and is a very fun article
with neat exercises to try.  It's about time someone started analyzing
curved creases.  Hooray!

Hot-diggity!

---- Tom "math=art" Hull
     thull@merrimack.edu





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:42:28 +0100
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, K.A. Lundberg wrote:
> I'm so sorry to hear about Hector please wish him my best.  I am
> curious why the original German publisher of his book choose to use a
> different biography for him.  Did they feel the true story was too
> depressing for this type of book?

The biography on the back of the German book says (approximately, I'm even
worse at translating than at writing English directly):

---
Hector Rojas F. comes from Bolivia and made his own toys from simple
materials already in his childhood. With his origami menagerie, he
expresses his love for nature -- similar to his music, to which he has
dedicated himself with equal devotion.
---

Yours, Sebastian                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)





From: ROCKYGROD@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:52:07 -0500 (
Subject: Origami Screen Saver

Just wondering if anyone has come up with an origami screensaver?  Preferably
for the Mac.

Thanks,

Patty





From: David <tamagotchi@MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:00:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Origami Screen Saver

Mac?????

Let's get one for a REAL pc!

(Just kidding Patty!)

Cheers,
David in Raleigh

ROCKYGROD@AOL.COM wrote:

> Just wondering if anyone has come up with an origami screensaver?  Preferably
> for the Mac.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patty





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:18:12 +0100
Subject: Entering a discussion

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 Kenny1414@AOL.COM wrote:
> Excuse me, people, for interrupting.

Great Goddess, why do people always apologize for entering a discussion?
After all, this is what the mailing list is for! If people did not want
someone else to participate in a discussion, they would use private e-mail
instead of posting to the list.

Let me state this once again:

If you have a comment on anything you read on the list, then *PLEASE*
*POST* *IT*!

A mailing list lives from the contributions of its members. There is
absolutely no need to apologize because you post to the list.

Yours, Sebastian ("Look at me! I post as well, no matter what kind of
rubbish I have to say.")                               skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)

PS: And regarding the rather tense climate on the list at the moment,
apologies to Kenny in advance. I hope he knows what I want to say with
this.





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:45:57 +0100
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 Kenny1414@AOL.COM wrote:
> Please, allow me to apologize to Hector and you
> for the group.

Well, me too. I often get carried away about philosophical questions, and
I have the bad habit of saying what I think, in very explicit terms.
Please hit me over the head (electronically, at least) when I start
rambling again.

> From what I remember of his book (which I congratulate him on getting
> published), it is like the childrens origami books for young beginners.

In my opinion, they are not, and this is what I find peculiar about the
book. His insects are rather complex (using the blintzed bird base or the
blintzed frog base) and yet they need cuts or paint. So this is not a book
for children, but it is not a book for "purist" adults either. I think it
would be much easier to appreciate the book if there was a more detailed
biography of the author.

> I would argue that Rubber Balloon Animals are a kind of Origami.

One-dimensional origami -- an interesting thought. I once read (well,
looked at) an article about three-dimensional origami, so the principles
of origami could be applied to one-dimensional structures as well.

> When it was said that Hector's folds are not origami, they meant not
> modern Pure origami.

A classical misunderstanding. Nobody said that Hector's models are not
origami. Instead, Joseph Wu said that "the folding is simplisting and
unappealing", and Kalei Lundberg responded that he "disagrees that his
models are not origami."

 So please drop the silly notion that Hector's models may not be origami;
all Joseph (and me, and some others) said is that from a modern purist's
point of view, his models are dissatisfying, because we know models that
achieve a better effect with a more "pure" style. The original poster,
Imtiaz Razvi, said that Rojas' animals are as good as or better than
Montroll's and Lang's models, and of course this demanded a response.

Gee -- when an animated discussion starts on this list, I find that the
most violoent controversies are often founded on simple misunderstandings
(and no-one (me often included) bothers to look up the original messages
to see what someone really said.)

> Such folders were being told what kind of Origami to expect, because
> they would be disappointed to buy the book hoping for the more difficult
> origami.

That's what I did, and I hoped to have settled the issue at that point.
I'm sorry that this had to escalate.

> If it's still on the World Wide Web, look for diagrams of Mark
> Kirschenbaum's "Snuffy" for an example of advanced modern origami.

The model is called "Fluffy". Other examples that are freely available are
Robert Lang's Praying Mantis or Marc Kirschenbaum's Bee.

> It does get a little confusing until you learn that we are not all
> talking to everyone, and we are not all talking about the same thing
> with the same words.

This is another problem. For many people on this list (me included)
English is not their mother tongue. This leads to many, many
misunderstandings, and makes it difficult to express the appropriate level
of politeness and tact.

> There are people who do not like the very complicated Purist Origami
> because it is too difficult.

And because it is too mathematical and takes the feeling out of origami.
Others despise modular origami because it is lifeless and for robots, not
for humans. Others again do not like abstractions (beetles with four legs
or bird without feet) because they do not want to "cripple" their models.
Others refuse to make cuts, because they think that cuts damage the
integrity of the paper.

Everyone has his own style -- but discussions about why someone chose a
certain style have to be permitted. (But you also have to accept it if
someone says "because I like it better that way", and be able to say "it's
nice, but it's not for me".)

> I hope I have not made things worse. It's hard work trying to explain this.

Cleaning up a mess is always a difficult and disgusting task. ;-)

Yours, Sebastian                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:47:55 +0100
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

Hello Xuxa!

Firstly, I have to apologise. When I write about "philosophical"
questions, I often get carried away and concentrate solely on the subject
at hand, not on the person I am addressing. Please forgive me for that; I
have to rely on others to put me in my right mind again.

And there I go again ...

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Xuxa Rojas wrote:
> Please sorry from me.  Hector has 45 years, and start to fold when he
> has 15 years, and run away from house ours.  During 3 years, he live on
> street, and make animals for pesos.  Soon he have others make things
> with him, names Julio y Andre.  They sell on street for to get food.

This is an interesting story, and I think it sheds a very peculiar light
on the models in his book.

I happen to know someone who makes his living by selling origami models on
the street, and his models are very different from Hector's. He makes
mostly simple one- or two-piece models, from the bird base. (The basset in
Hector's book is made from this base.) He uses some cuts in his models,
eg. to join two pieces of a model; and in some cases he continues to use
cuts even though he know that there are ways to join the model without
cuts, simply because cuts are faster.

But when I compare his models with Hector's, three things are striking to
me about Hector's models:

a) Hector makes models that are relatively complex. (eg. his Tarantula or
his crab), whereas my friend only makes models that can be completed in
less than, say, ten minutes.

b) Hector uses some peculiar paper shapes, whereas my friend only uses
squares. This has no ideological reasons; he simply says that he doesn't
have the time to cut special shapes.

c) Hector uses paint, whereas my friend's models rely only on their
appearance.

So it seems that when you do origami for a living, this should encourage
"pure" origami, because all additional thing like special paper shapes or
painting require too much time. But Hector made very complicated models
that, furthermore, do not seem to be very "sellable". I'd like to know why
he made his more complicated models and whether they were commercial
successes.

Please note that this for once is not criticism (although I do feel that
I'm being carried away again), I'm simply interested that apparently
similar conditions can produce styles that are so diverse. I only offer
these pieces of information so that others can appreciate what it
sometimes means to fold for a living.

> He come home after big fight, where lost his hand.  He have only bag of paint
> bird and animal along.  No could he fold any more.  He writes book then.

So I understand that all his models come from the time when he worked on
the street?

> I not understand what is "Brill"?

Dave Brill is an English paperfolder and designer of origami models. He
has published his first book rather recently; it is called "Brilliant
Origami".

Yours, Sebastian                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)





From: Robert Allan Schwartz <notbob@TESSELLATION.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:51:29 -0500
Subject: Re: origami defined

>+Surely origami just means folding-paper.
>
snip
>
>a folded
>+greetings card is very definitely origami too!
>
The origami is primarly associated with paper is due to historical
>and economic "accidents."  Chris Palmer's fabric tessellations are a great
>counter example that origami needs to be defined as paper only.

Seems to me that origami is about folding, not about paper.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Allan Schwartz       | voice (617) 499-9470
Senior Instructor           | fax   (617) 249-0330
Tessellation Training       | email notbob@tessellation.com
955 Massachusetts Ave. #354 | URL   http://www.tessellation.com/index.html
Cambridge, MA 02139         | Take our course: "Design Patterns in C++"





From: Vicky Mihara Avery <vavery@WENET.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:30:37 -0800
Subject: Re: directional disabled (lefties)

About left-handed folders:
There was an interesting observation made at one of the OUSA conventions -
many of the creative individuals whose models we enjoy (I think it included-
and forgive me if I'm mistaken - Lang, Shafer, Montroll, etc) are
left-handed.  It was an unusually high ratio.  (so do they diagram in their
right mind? ..  ; )  ...)

For what it's worth, I'm right handed, I do all my detail folding with my
left.

Vicky Mihara Avery

Katherine Nelson wrote:

> I'm left-handed in my thought processes.  I've developed habits that make
> folding complex models easier, as I have to approach folds from a
> particular direction to make them work.  It's not a matter of having a
> dominant side/limb/hand, it's that my brain is in backwards :)
>
> At the worst, I rotate a diagram or a model until it clicks mentally.
>
>
>
>
> > Just as an aside, do you really find being left-handed a directional
> > disability when folding? I ask this being "sinistral" myself, though I
> > never thought about it affecting the practice of origami in the same way
> > that it might, for example, affect learning to knit. I confess to not
> > being a 'purist leftie' ie. cutlery settings don't pose any problems ;}
> >
> > Or were you just being funny? (and hence making my question officially
> > "stoopid")
> >
> > Regards,
> > Michael Janssen-Gibson





From: "L. Hayashi" <lmh@COMPUSMART.AB.CA>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:37:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Mesh folding

Doug,

Thanks for the information on the "colormesh"  I went out and bought some
and impressed some friends folding the traditional crane it did look pretty
ok.  I am going to tackle a dragon next.

Regards
Lynda
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: January 20, 1999 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Mesh folding

>Lynda Hayashi indited:
>
>> I was in a local craft store and they were selling  mesh like screen for
>> folding origami.  Has anyone tried it and with what results and models?
The
>> mesh came in assorted colors and sizes and showed the crane as the model.
>
>If you are refering to the stuff sold under the label "ColorMesh" I have
some
>info that might be relevant, so I'll presume that is the stuff.  It seems
to
>be available fairly widely in craft stores (Michael's, Pat Catan's, though
>those names might be local to Pittsburgh, PA, I don't know), as well as
stamp
>art stores and some artisan paper stores.  It is also available at the "big
>three" online origami stores. (http://www.origami-usa.org/,
>http://www.fascinating-folds.com/, http://www.kimscrane.com/).
>
>I first tried this stuff when Joseph Wu introduced it to the Origami USA
>convention in 1998.  I was able to secure three pieces of it from him.  Two
>white sheets I cut into hexagons and made into his Snowflake model.  The
third
>I foolishly parted with to a proprieter of a local Fabric store who claimed
to
>have a contact in Japan.
>
>Gladly, this "paper" has become available.  I have folded a few of
Kawasaki's
>Rose with Wu's Calyx from it.  I have several pictures of one of those
models
>on my web pages:  http://dropit.pgh.net/~dwp/origami/Origami.html then
follow
>the Kawasaki's Rose link.  I apologize for the lack of quality in the
>thumbnail images, the real full size images are much better.
>
>Folding ColorMesh (and probably most mesh in general) can be interesting.
>Since you can see through the material, you get all kinds of interesting
>interference patterns when you fold one layer over another, which can make
it
>hard to see if you are lined up on your landmarks.  Additionally, and this
may
>only apply to ColorMesh, when you unfold a flap, it can be difficult to see
to
>the resulting crease line.  ColorMesh will remember the crease, but seeing
it
>yourself...
>
>I love folding this stuff, because of the look of the final result, and
also
>because of the challenge of the folding itself.  Folding in the air helps a
>lot, because you can manipulate the model to catch the light so that you
can
>see the near invisible crease lines.  I also find folding on a ruled
surface
>(many self healing cutting mats have a grid printed on them) helps.  Yes,
it
>does create more interference, but the trick is to use that to help you,
>instead of letting it hinder you!
>
>It may not be the perfect "paper" for all models, but it can be fun to fold
if
>you have the right outlook/attitude when you start!
>
>As with all origami, and most of life, Experiment, Experiment, Experiment!
>
>-D'gou





From: Maarten van Gelder <VGelder@KVI.nl>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:58:59 +0100
Subject: Query for an Origami model

Can somebody answer this query? If so reply directly to Elizabeth
please.

   HISDayNews@aol.com    wrote:

>
> I am looking for an origami cross for our Sunday School children to make . .
> any information you can provide . . whether directions or a link . . would
> be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Elizabeth Wyse
> Prince of Peace
> Ozark AL 36360

--
Maarten van Gelder    KVI - Groningen, Netherlands    vgelder@kvi.nl





From: Imtiaz Razvi <imtiazrazvi@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:39:47 -0800 (
Subject: Appeal for truce re Hecto Rojas

Hello
To all

When I recommended the book Animal Oigami by Rojas I didn't anticipate
that I would start a prolonged and often heated debate,which developed
into what is and isn't origami.

In my original message I was merely bringing to notice the availability
of the book for people that liked to fold animals and insects etc.

Now it may not be 'pure' origami but I am sure it appeals to many
people. Thus my purpose in posting the original message.

If it so happens that a great number of other folders dislike and it
seems to me hate his style, so be it. These people should continue to
fold what they like to fold.
Why publicly display their personal distaste?
Yes I know about freeedom of expression and a healty debate etc. but why
put off people who might otherwise have liked folding from the book. Let
people decide for themselves. It seems to me that folders especially the
more gifted and experienced one's should be a bit more tolerance when it
comes to different people's views and interpretations of origami.
Let people discover for themselves what and how they like to fold
without overtly prejeducing their thoughts.
Surely this is what makes origami so enjoyable.

Finally I would like to suugest that this subject has been debated at
length for long enough. Views have been expressed from all sides both
for and against the styles in the book. Should we not let the matter
rest?

I am fairly new to the list but I must express my dismay at the degree
of villification and lack of tolerance I have noticed in many of the
messsages over the last week or two. It has certainly made me wary of
recommending anything else again.

Come on fellow origamists live and let live!

Regards

Imtiaz

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Martin <mrcinc@SILCOM.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:07:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Apology, Xuxa and Hector (was Re: Hector Rojas)

Sebastian Marius Kirsch wrote: -- ... So I understand that all his models come
     from
the time when he worked on the street? ...

Because of the above -- I must add Agatha Christie to my previous post of
     authors
who are surpassed by this set of postings.

Kirsch's question is worthy of Miss Marple or Hercule Poirot.

Also note in Xuxa's first post -- she says,  ... " Hector all he can do is work
with his hands" ...

Hands???

--
Martin R. Carbone
1227 De La Vina St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101
Tel: 805-965-5574 Fax: 805-965-2414

WEBSITES: http://www.papershops.com <<or>>
http://www.modelshops.com <<or>> http://www.silcom.com/~mrcinc





From: Martin <mrcinc@SILCOM.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:31:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Appeal for truce re Hecto Rojas

To Imtiaz Razvi --- Please reconsider your present position. Apply your live
and let live philosophy to the curent debate or whatever it is. Some people,
including me, enjoy the action. I find it very interesting to see the
various ways people analyze the interwoven subject matter.

Imtiaz Razvi wrote:

> Hello
> To all
>
> When I recommended the book Animal Oigami by Rojas I didn't anticipate
> that I would start a prolonged and often heated debate,which developed
> into what is and isn't origami.
>
> In my original message I was merely bringing to notice the availability
> of the book for people that liked to fold animals and insects etc.
>
> Now it may not be 'pure' origami but I am sure it appeals to many
> people. Thus my purpose in posting the original message.
>
> If it so happens that a great number of other folders dislike and it
> seems to me hate his style, so be it. These people should continue to
> fold what they like to fold.
> Why publicly display their personal distaste?
> Yes I know about freeedom of expression and a healty debate etc. but why
> put off people who might otherwise have liked folding from the book. Let
> people decide for themselves. It seems to me that folders especially the
> more gifted and experienced one's should be a bit more tolerance when it
> comes to different people's views and interpretations of origami.
> Let people discover for themselves what and how they like to fold
> without overtly prejeducing their thoughts.
> Surely this is what makes origami so enjoyable.
>
> Finally I would like to suugest that this subject has been debated at
> length for long enough. Views have been expressed from all sides both
> for and against the styles in the book. Should we not let the matter
> rest?
>
> I am fairly new to the list but I must express my dismay at the degree
> of villification and lack of tolerance I have noticed in many of the
> messsages over the last week or two. It has certainly made me wary of
> recommending anything else again.
>
> Come on fellow origamists live and let live!
>
> Regards
>
> Imtiaz
>
> ______________________________________________________
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