




From: Judy D Pagnusat <judypag@JUNO.COM>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:38:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:03:46 -0400 Valerie Vann
<valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM> writes:
><< why not an "adult origami" list where we can post without
><<fear of censorship or disapproval?
>
>and why not a French list, and an under 30 list and a carpenters
>list and a modular list and a foil folders list and a list for people
>who were born in July....   This list has survived some many
>years unfragmented because of the members cooperation,
>willingness to compromise on occasion, and respect for other
>peoples feelings.
>
>as for "fear of censorship or disapproval", somebody would
>probably disapprove because it was *too* adult or not =
>
>adult enough...
>
>valerie
>
Valerie,

I agree with your points here as well as your points on your last post.
I feel that to live in society we need to respect the feelings of others.
 I don't see how respecting others equates with giving up freedom. Giving
respect is something we choose to do and I don't feel we choose it enough
in todays life.  I am not a prude but feel there is a time and place for
everything and I think people are only being asked to be considerate!

Judy

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:42:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

At 09:31 PM 7/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Frankly, I would at least like to have seen something a little more hardcore
>to justify having to sit and sift through the rhetoric...

that could be arranged. but after being on this list for upward of 8 years,
i'd really rather not alienate all (alright, some) of the people here.

>(jeez-- why not just have an "Origami Kids" Newsgroup??

more realistic - why not an "adult origami" list where we can post without
fear of censorship or disapproval? needless to say, that list wouldn't have
as much traffic as this one, but it might provide a much-needed outlet.
stranger things have happened.

peace, love, and anatomically correct origami,
alasdair





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:03:44 -0400
Subject: Censorship of the List

Among the reactions to some of my posts on this subject
<< I think Alisdair did exactly the right thing.

I said this same thing several times and several ways
My initial posts on this subject commended and supported
Alisdair for the course he took, and urged him to
diagram and make availible any of his art he cared to
share.

<< when we do so not because of our own feelings and beliefs
<<but simply because of our fear of what "others may think",
<<then we have voluntarily surrendered a little bit of our freedom,
<<and we may never get it back.

My advocacy of self-restraint (what some call
censorship, or self-censorship) in using adult language and
discussing adult issues on this list (e.g. explicit
description of "adult origami") has nothing to do with
fear of what others may think; it has only to do
with the *FACT* that however much I may deplore it, and
however much I disagree with the viewpoints of certain
groups, we are living in a real world where these groups
influence the internet access of schools and other facilities
used by children. I can't control this, and neither can
the teachers and children who are affected by this.

A "no compromise on principles" is a very fine attitude,
but in a real world we can't all occupy the high ground.
It has always seemed a reasonable compromise that people
**voluntarily** refrain from discussing adult origami,
and clearly indicate the content of their announcements
to the list of the availability of such artistic materials.

Valerie Vann





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:03:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

<< why not an "adult origami" list where we can post without
<<fear of censorship or disapproval?

and why not a French list, and an under 30 list and a carpenters
list and a modular list and a foil folders list and a list for people
who were born in July....   This list has survived some many
years unfragmented because of the members cooperation,
willingness to compromise on occasion, and respect for other
peoples feelings.

as for "fear of censorship or disapproval", somebody would
probably disapprove because it was *too* adult or not
adult enough...

valerie





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:23:08 -0400
Subject: (NO) Re: Censorship of the List

Judy wrote:
>
>  I don't see how respecting others equates with giving up freedom. Giving
> respect is something we choose to do and I don't feel we choose it enough
> in todays life.  I am not a prude but feel there is a time and place for
> everything and I think people are only being asked to be considerate!

The problem is how to respect EVERYONE on the list. It is just as much a
show of disrespect to NOT say things to those on the list that want to hear
them, learn from them and converse about them, as it is TO say something
that offends another person. Its easy (well easier) to avoid offending when
you are talking one on one, but its pretty likely that SOMEONE will be
offended, one way or the other, in a one to five hundred conversation. As a
participant in a group discussion NOT saying something can be unfair too.
Where would we be if Martin Luther King JR decided NOT to offend anyone?

Jeff Kerwood

Pocahontas: "If you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things
you never knew you never knew".





From: Michael Belehradek <mbelehradek@CNC.SK>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:52:38 +0200
Subject: Re: Should everyone be able to fold everything?

At 03:41 PM 7/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Personally, the models that leave me stumped do not do so because there are
>too many moves, and each diagram, if viewed by itself, seems to make
>perfect sense.  My problem is that I get to a certain point (usually step
>50-60) where the model doesn't seem to do what the diagrams suggest.
>("Where is *that* flap coming from?"  "Why don't I have a point right
>there?" etc.)

From my point of view. I am beginner. Complexity of model for me is not high
number of steps to follow or that I am not capable undrestand the diagram.
For me it is that i am not able to do correct way some of steps.
For example now Im trying to make a Bee by Marc Kirschenbaum.
Bee has 103 steps and I am not able to do step 5 with accurancy
And when I am at the end the legs are so thick that I cant pleat them
and they dont look nice because my inaccurancy in previous steps.
I think it is the most complex model I've done.
On the other side maybe I dont have right paper. I can't get kami paper
so I'm using coloured paper to copy machine. I someone has some suggestion
for
me I'd be happy


     Michael Belehradek





From: Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:40:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

I have a simple solution- Lets just have a warning in the message title
line, and then we will know if it is something we wnat to read or not...

I think Alaisidair(Did I spell correctly? :) ) did the right thing as
well. Besides, if you don't show what you have made, you may never become
that new "Picasso" or "Michelangelo". (Just so you know, many children
are exposed to their works, and they had nudity in them! I dont think
youth are the worse for it, either.) I am not saying just post any old
thing in a list and call it art, but we need to be a little less of
"Prudes" if we are forewarned...

CTD

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:53:12 -0700
Subject: Why can't we have it all?

I don't think we have to go all the way to one extreme or the other on this
censorship issue.  My understanding during the 2-3 years I've been on this
list was that a notice would be posted stating that a new model was
available on the "underground Origami" site for those interested.  No
problem there, right?

Those who have impressionable children in the home will no doubt have
invested in 'Net Nanny' or some other similar service which would prevent
naughtily inclined or overly curious minors from actually going to the
site, correct?

Which simply leaves us with Valerie Vann's recommendation that the actual
*content* of the so-called 'underground' site not be *openly* discussed
here among the 500 or so members of the list.  Not an unreasonable position
at all IMHO.

At a large social gathering with all ages attending, I imagine (or would
like to think) most of us here would not be likely to grab a microphone and
insist everyone listen to an off-color joke.  However a smaller group of
*like-minded* adult friends might tell the joke with no offense taken.  So
not all that different from this large social gathering, hmmm?

Just my $.02...

"Peace In Creases"

Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:00:34 -0700
Subject: Help for beginner with bee

Michael Belehradek writes:

(snip) "...I'm trying to make a Bee by Marc Kirschenbaum.  Bee has 103
steps and I am not able to do step 5 with accurancy.  And when I am at the
end the legs are so thick that I cant pleat them and they dont look nice
because my inaccurancy in previous steps.  I think it is the most complex
model I've done.  On the other side maybe I dont have right paper. I can't
get kami paper
so I'm using coloured paper to copy machine. I someone has some suggestion for
me I'd be happy"

I want you to be happy Michael :^~), so here's what helped me when I was a
beginner:

1.      Use really BIG paper to start with (12" or even larger for complex
models)  This will help you understand the steps without worrying about the
thickness of the paper.
2.      If possible, skip the step.  Sometimes a model finished incorrectly
tells you exactly what you should have done in an earlier step.
3.      Copy paper is very thick, Origamically and is probably not the best
choice for something that has to have antenna, insect legs, or other skinny
bits.  Try coloring one side of some newspaper just to learn the model.
4.      If none of that works, come back to the list and describe exactly what
it is about step 5 that doesn't make sense.  People usually respond to
specific areas of difficulty with great advice.

Good luck!

"Peace In Creases"

Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com





From: arien kismet del'tai <arien@BLEGGA.OMNIGROUP.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:13:31 -0700
Subject: Re: repetition in diagrams

        With respect to going back to bases: I'm, well, torn.
        On the one hand, flipping back pages isn't fun.
        On the other hand, though, it's a whole lot easier for me to memorize
when steps are 'grouped' as a base that can be used for more than one thing
-- and then, oddly, it feels like a waste of paper to see the same thing
written up more than once.  *grin*
        If /nothing/ else, if bases' steps are repeated, it would be nice to
say in boldface or the like that 'we're doing a fluff base' or what have you,
so it's easier to recognize the connections between models.

---
|>          Cherryh's Law: No rule should be followed off a cliff.         <|
|>  http://www.omnigroup.com/People/Friends/arien/  // arien@omnigroup.com <|





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:28:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

>
> I have a simple solution- Lets just have a warning in the message title
> line, and then we will know if it is something we wnat to read or not...
>
Sounds good to me. That IS what was being done. But as Valerie has mentioned
your idea will not be good enough for the students. Her point was the only
valid one. If a certain type of content is discussed here then teachers will
not be able to recommend this list to their students. I say so what, but
that is just my opinion, hopefully as valid as her opinion :-)

---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Jean-Jerome CASALONGA <jjerome.casalonga@HOL.FR>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:35:53 +0200
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

                Dear Valerie,

You wrote :
 >and why not a French list, and an under 30 list

There is indeed a french Origami list, and we don't talk much about dirty
Origami !
And thank's God, I'm 31, so I would be in for the over 30 list .  Alas, I'm
not a carpentar !

        JJ Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasalongaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa





From: Sam Kendig <neuro_mancer42@YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:23:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

---Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG> wrote:
>
> >
> > I have a simple solution- Lets just have a warning in the message
title
> > line, and then we will know if it is something we wnat to read or
not...
> >
> Sounds good to me. That IS what was being done. But as Valerie has
mentioned
> your idea will not be good enough for the students. Her point was
the only
> valid one. If a certain type of content is discussed here then
teachers will
> not be able to recommend this list to their students. I say so what,
but
> that is just my opinion, hopefully as valid as her opinion :-)
>
> ---
> Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
> ackerman@dorsai.org
> sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu
>

I have to agree, but I don't like to. The school system is so
conservative that when they learn that a teacher has told a student to
look into something that has the slightest chance of containing
controversial material, that teacher gets in deep trouble. Any
discussion, and in turn any mailing list, may contain topics which
might offend people. If we're so worried about teachers being worried
about telling students to look into this mailing list, then yes, we
should censor it. But if we're going to go through all that to invite
teachers, then I think we're sacrificing some of our freedom to allow
them to reccomend us. If students are truly interested, then they will
subscribe without the teacher's advice. I feel that we should feel
free to censor ourselves, but not feel obligated to do so for some who
may want to reccomend this list.

Peace,
Sam
Neuro_Mancer42@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com





From: Paul & Jan Fodor <origami@ALOHA.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:25:24 -1000
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

> as for "fear of censorship or disapproval", somebody would
> probably disapprove because it was *too* adult or not
> adult enough...
>
> valerie

Actually in the name of "No Censorship", you'd be censoring the "wrong
kind of people" from your exclusive list.  How would you manage to do
that?  Isn't it simpler to just post warnings?  I certainly do agree
with Valerie.   Jan
--
<http://www.gotomymall.com/hawaii/origami/>
Origami by Jan website...the Fodor folder





From: Paul & Jan Fodor <origami@ALOHA.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:36:59 -1000
Subject: Re: Help for beginner with bee

Hey, this is a good discussion for folks who can't avail themselves to
all that fancy paper mentioned before.
        What about clean hamburger wrapper paper?  Its got strength, thinness,
not sure about squareness but that could be corrected, and good size.
Aloha, Jan
--
<http://www.gotomymall.com/hawaii/origami/>
Origami by Jan website...the Fodor folder





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:50:29 -0400
Subject: Re: (NO) Re: Censorship of the List

> From: Magdalena Cano Plewinska <mplewinska@MINDSPRING.COM>

> >Where would we be if Martin Luther King JR decided NOT to offend anyone?
>
> But, Jeff..... Isn't that taking ourselves a little too seriously?
> This isn't life and death, it's only (gasp!) folding paper. I don't
> think it's really right to put the two at the same level.

Absolutely - I wouldn't put them at the same level - AT ALL. It was just my
way of getting across that  ~ both ~  talking and NOT talking have
consequences.

Jeff Kerwood





From: Cathy <cathypl@GENERATION.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:03:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

Oh, thank you, thank you, for restoring my self-esteem.  I turned many
sheets of paper into origami popcorn at that same point.  I would like to
know if the top bit is supposed to be coloured or white, and what is the
significance of the little arrow head which I thought meant sink, or push
in, but probably doesn't?  There is definetly a missing step, one with the
words that say, "A great miracle happens here."

                                                        Cathy

At 08:44 PM 98-07-27 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>If you ever manage that Lord Vader let me know what that step is: open up
>the entire top!
>I have no problem with Montroll's stegasaurus nor with some of Lang's
>complex models, and here I was opening the entire model, putting it back
>together, and going in circles. As mentioned in an earlier thread it really
>would have helped if the diagrams were shaded so we can see which side of
>the paper is where. Oh well...
>
>
>--
>---
>Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
>ackerman@dorsai.org
>sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu
>
******^^^^^*****^^^^^*****

Cathy Palmer-Lister
Ste. Julie, Quebec
Canada
cathypl@generation.net





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:06:12 -0400
Subject: name this model!

g'day all

i'm taking a break from the pornogami content for a while cos i've got
another question. lately i've been going back into my old models and
finding things i'd designed but never diagrammed. most of them i'd
forgotten how to do, so i've been taking them apart and figuring it all out
again. in the process i've designed a few completely new things. one of
them is a rather south-american-looking symbol that i swear i've seen on
native american paintings. i want to say it represents the sun, but i'm not
sure. a crude ascii representation follows:

     ^
     --
< | O | >
     --
          v

pretty crude, eh? i'm trying to name it but i want to do so accurately.
what culture does it come from and what does it mean? if anyone thinks they
know and wants a scanned image, i'll be glad to do that too.

thanks much....

peace,
alasdair

p.s. i've also modified this model to make a fairly convincing rifle-sight
crosshair. although that's probably not what i'll call it.





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:12:27 -0400
Subject: Re: repetition in diagrams

arien kismet del'tai indited:

>         On the other hand, though, it's a whole lot easier for me to memorize
> when steps are 'grouped' as a base that can be used for more than one thing
> -- and then, oddly, it feels like a waste of paper to see the same thing
> written up more than once.  *grin*
>         If /nothing/ else, if bases' steps are repeated, it would be nice to
> say in boldface or the like that 'we're doing a fluff base' or what have you,
> so it's easier to recognize the connections between models.

Actually, what is even more annoying than the wasted paper is the wasted
opportunity...  Why is it that a high intermediate/complex model starts out
with yet another way to fold a preliminary base, taking up two pages and ten
plus steps, then at the end of the model there is some tricky step followed by
a "turn the model over"?  Not only has the author hid the results of the tricky
step until who knows how many steps later, but has done so in order to make the
model fit because they wasted two pages and ten+ steps with a preliminary
base?  Sheesh, if someone needs that much hand holding to get the preliminary
base, what chance do they have of finishing the model?

D'gou

P.S.  No, I don't think everyone can fold every model.  Folding takes skill,
and beginner's have to build up their skill before they can successfully fold
more and more complex models.  The desire to fold complex models can fuel the
desire to learn the skill.  In the case of someone wanting the result without
the effort, well too bad, you don't get a Lang insect for free.  (This is
completely independent of clarity of diagrams, or even of
diagrams/direct-teaching at all).

--
end
<a href="http://www.pgh.net/~dwp">Doug's Fun Page</a>





From: Cathy <cathypl@GENERATION.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:17:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Help for beginner with bee

I've used those paper place mats they use in restaurants.  They fold quite
nicely, and have a printed and non-printed side.  It's not the greatest,
obviously, but it is better than newspaper that gets your hands greasy with
ink.

                        Cathy

At 04:19 PM 98-07-28 +0100, you wrote:
>Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM> writes:
>
>> 3.  Copy paper is very thick, Origamically and is probably not the
>> best choice for something that has to have antenna, insect legs, or
>> other skinny bits.  Try coloring one side of some newspaper just to
>> learn the model.
>
>Yuck.  I wouldn't use newspaper.  Wrapping paper (for example, brown
>paper) is readily available in big sheets, and tends to be much
>stronger and more foldable.  (Maybe newspaper is different where you
>are, of course!)
>
******^^^^^*****^^^^^*****

Cathy Palmer-Lister
Ste. Julie, Quebec
Canada
cathypl@generation.net





From: Magdalena Cano Plewinska <mplewinska@MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:22:26 +0000 (
Subject: Re: Should everyone be able to fold everything?

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:52:38 +0200, Michael Belehradek
<mbelehradek@CNC.SK> wrote:

>On the other side maybe I dont have right paper. I can't get kami paper
>so I'm using coloured paper to copy machine.

I don't know the model, I think that copy paper has to be too thick
for any model with 103 steps. You need to find thinner (or larger)
paper. Maybe you should look at gift-wrapping paper.
--
Magda Plewinska                   mplewinska@mindspring.com
Miami, FL, USA





From: Magdalena Cano Plewinska <mplewinska@MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:22:27 +0000 (
Subject: Re: (NO) Re: Censorship of the List

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:23:08 -0400, Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
wrote:

>Where would we be if Martin Luther King JR decided NOT to offend anyone?

But, Jeff..... Isn't that taking ourselves a little too seriously?
This isn't life and death, it's only (gasp!) folding paper. I don't
think it's really right to put the two at the same level.
--
Magda Plewinska                   mplewinska@mindspring.com
Miami, FL, USA





From: Sam Kendig <neuro_mancer42@YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:29:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

> > At 08:44 PM 98-07-27 -0400, you wrote:
> > >>
> > >If you ever manage that Lord Vader let me know what that step is:
open up
> > >the entire top!

I have successfully completed the Lord Vader model, and I think I see
the problem (I had a bit of trouble with that step, too). One key is
that the diagrams are from the top, and they're showing how to
recollapse the top (although it still stays 3D, but collapsed to a
point at the top). The next steps work within the opened flap, and
then close that, too, leaving the model flat.

Hope this helps,
Sam
Neuro_Mancer42@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:37:10 -0400
Subject: Re: repetition in diagrams

Lisa Hodsdon indited:

> I was surprised at how few of my books included diagrams for the crane. I
> ended up using Ansill's _Lifestyle Origami_.

That's odd.  In the places I look to buy books, there is a glut of beginner's
books, mostly with the traditional cup, etc. and usually ending up with the
crane.

> This is extreme, but is not unusual in books that a beginner is likely to
> pick up. It's worst in reprints of older books where one diagram is used
> for 4 steps. Many of these models aren't particularly hard, but folding
> them from diagrams can be. So, when recommending books for beginners,
> the quality of the diagrams is at least as important to consider as the
> relative ease of the actual folding.

True, when giving books to beginners you want the most accomodating diagrams
that you can find.  Anyone learning from a book has a double challenge of
decoding the language of the diagrams as well as learning the skill of
manipulating the paper, and perhaps even more than that, of educating their
eyes to see what is going on.  (Hmm, see, that is a "folded" edge, and those
are the "raw" edges of the square, they are _not_ the same! etc.etc.etc.)

Once you get beyound beginner's books, I much prefer the "old" style of "start
with a colored bird base"....  And while it can be a bit annoying to have a
chain of "start with step 4 of the previous model" instructions, I only find
that those bother me when I'm in a hurry to fold a model for the first time.
And even I can't sympathize with myself under those circumstances. ;-)  At this
point, I much prefer having a few extra models if the "expense" is to have to
go back to a previous model and fold it up to step 20.  For non-beginners, I
think economy (not obscurity/confusion) of diagrams is a win.

-D'gou

--
end
<a href="http://www.pgh.net/~dwp">Doug's Fun Page</a>





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:50:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Repeat behind symbol

Robert Lang indited:

> show the next step, turn the paper back over, etc., etc. Too many turnovers is
> more confusing than a verbal repeat instruction.

> Back in the Dark Ages of the 1970s when wizened scribes pored over their
> drafting tables wielding manly Rapidographs, complex models had a vast amount
> of information crammed into small number of steps; you'd see in a single step
> simultaneous folds on the head, legs, body, and tail, plus repeats. In those
> days, if you took 2 pages folks complained you were wasting paper.

WhipperSnappers can be virtual geezers too. ;-)
Actually I rather prefer the old style of compactness.  The only time I find it
annoying is when the folds interact (body and leg folds, for example) and that
isn't clearly shown in the diagrams.  Its actually easier to see the structure
of the model when you can see the folding sequence in a short space, rather
than spread out over several pages.

I think what is confusing, guessing from the messages posted, is that many
folks have a hard time keeping track of where they are, which makes the "fold
up to step 20 of the previous model" and the five folds in one step (20a, 20b,
20c, 20d, 20e) annoying.

I suppose my attitude towards diagrams might be rather unique.  To me, diagrams
are one way for the creator to communicate to the folder the process for making
a model.  The process diagrammed isn't always the best way to fold the model,
but it is often the best way to show it.  For example, many of Fuse's model's
diagrams leave you with models with intermediate crease lines showing.  Its
easier that way, and I have no complaint.  If I want a cleaner looking model, I
can figure out which crease line is to be removed and pay attention to the
folding.  Similarily I can open the paper up and discover how to precrease it
which I find more accurate than the documented folding sequence.

I'm not advocating sloppy diagrams or confusing terminology or "puzzle
decoding" but I am saying that us folders have to meet the diagrammer/creator
part way.  I think it perfectly valid to tell Mr. Lang and other creators
things that are confusing (and those that we like!), but I think it is also
perfectly valid for them to require effort and skill on our part as well.

-D'gou

--
end
<a href="http://www.pgh.net/~dwp">Doug's Fun Page</a>





From: Casida Mark <casida@ERE.UMONTREAL.CA>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:44:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

> and why not a French list,

Well, there is a French list, but I don't think that this has
anything to do with the current topic of censorship.  The French
list allows the dissemination of information about origami in
that language, hence potentially enlarging the group of people
participating in origami, as well as containing such specific
information as where to find origami books in Paris, Toulouse,
and Montreal.  I think that local language lists should be
encouraged rather than discouraged and are unlikely to represent
a threat to the current English-oriented list.

               Voila mes 0.02 $

--
*-------------------------------------------------------*
|          Mark E. Casida                               |
|          e-mail: casida@chimie.umontreal.ca           |





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:46:03 -0700
Subject: Re: name this model!

From the ascii rendering that Alasdair sent I'm guessing the Aztec
calendar.  Asked all over the office and no one can remember the name of
the sun god it represents.

Now of course it could be that I'm remembering this all wrong and your
design has nothing to do with anything I've just said, in which case I
recommend you not read any of the foregoing.  ;~^)

"Peace In Creases"

Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:43:06 -0400
Subject: name this model!

I think one name for it is "Ojo de Dios"

They're made with string woven around crossed sticks
in patterns, and it appears in Latin American weavings.

valerie





From: Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:55:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

Ahhh, but if we allow the minority (Teachers reccomending the list to
students) to rule what the majority (The mailing list) says or does, that
would contradict what this list is ABOUT! It is about voicing opinions
(Mabye not popular, like mine, it seems.) on certain subjects (Origami)
and personal expression through art! I am not voting for or against
origami with lewd themes, but I really think we should get back to the
fact that this is an opinion-based list! If people see something they
dont like, they do not have to read! That simple! BTW, I think ALL
people's opinions are valid, they just might not be popular!

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:06:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

>
> Oh, thank you, thank you, for restoring my self-esteem.  I turned many
> sheets of paper into origami popcorn at that same point.  I would like to
> know if the top bit is supposed to be coloured or white, and what is the
> significance of the little arrow head which I thought meant sink, or push
> in, but probably doesn't?  There is definetly a missing step, one with the
> words that say, "A great miracle happens here."
>
>                                                         Cathy
OB>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 08:44 PM 98-07-27 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >If you ever manage that Lord Vader let me know what that step is: open up
> >the entire top!
Probably a very simply step but quite difficult to figure out simply by
looking at the diagram :-)

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:06:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

I made the Vader model last night, and if you are refering to steps
13-14, they are simple enough, but difficult to see with the diagrams. It
is not really the entire top, but close to it.
CTD

PS, Who liked the models by Chris Durham? :)

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From: Bruce Stephens <b.stephens@ISODE.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:19:45 +0100
Subject: Re: Help for beginner with bee
Lines: 11

Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM> writes:

> 3.  Copy paper is very thick, Origamically and is probably not the
> best choice for something that has to have antenna, insect legs, or
> other skinny bits.  Try coloring one side of some newspaper just to
> learn the model.

Yuck.  I wouldn't use newspaper.  Wrapping paper (for example, brown
paper) is readily available in big sheets, and tends to be much
stronger and more foldable.  (Maybe newspaper is different where you
are, of course!)





From: Bruce Stephens <b.stephens@ISODE.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:26:06 +0100
Subject: Re: repetition in diagrams
Lines: 16

Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM> writes:

> Actually, what is even more annoying than the wasted paper is the
> wasted opportunity...  Why is it that a high intermediate/complex
> model starts out with yet another way to fold a preliminary base,
> taking up two pages and ten plus steps,

Does anybody produce diagrams like this, though?  Mostly, I see a
square with the crease pattern, followed by a diagram of the result.
So that's a single extra diagram, which can even be smaller than the
rest if things are *really* tight.

The advantage of showing the whole model from a square is that it
makes the model easily accessible to people who don't read the
language.  That's well worth a single diagram or two (you may need two
to indicate blintzed bases clearly).





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:36:36 -0700
Subject: Re: [NO] Censorship of the List

At 09:06 PM 98/07/28 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't have a dictionary handy, but I believe the word "censorship"
>applies only to when *the government* prevents you from publishing what you
>want. Since the government is not involved in this email list, we might
>speak of selecting content, but I believe "censorship" is not appropriate
>here.

Main Entry: 1 censor
Pronunciation: 'sen(t)-s&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from censEre to give as one's opinion, assess; perhaps
akin to Sanskrit samsati he praises
1 : one of two magistrates of early Rome acting as census takers, assessors,
and inspectors of morals and conduct
2 : one who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who examines
materials (as publications or films) for objectionable matter b : an
official (as in time of war) who reads communications (as letters) and
deletes material considered sensitive or harmful
3 : a hypothetical psychic agency that represses unacceptable notions before
they reach consciousness
- censorial /sen-'sOr-E-&l, -'sor-/ adjective

Main Entry: 2 censor
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): censored; censoring /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable

So you are sort of correct when you use the noun form of the word, but the
verb form has been correctly used on this list.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331   e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





From: Aaron Tu <aaron_tu@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:53:43 -0700 (
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

Lynda,

Sound interesting. May I ask what this "Sorry Kit" is all about. I
haven't been to the Convention nor belong to Origami USA Club. If it is
a publication of the latest models (at least those exhibit in the
Convention), I would really appreciate if someone can tell me how I can
get a hold of it. Is Robert Lang's dino skeleton in it? Pleeeease say
yes. :)

Aaron

>Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:28:38 -0600
>Reply-To:     Origami List <ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>From:         "L. Hayashi" <lmh@COMPUSMART.AB.CA>
>Subject:      Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book
>To:           ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
>Yippee...
>Although I didn't get to go to the Origaim USA Convention this year.  I
did
>order a "Sorry" Kit and I am glad to say I received it today in the
mail.  I quickly browsed
>through the convention book  and I am anxious to get started on folding
> some of the new interesting models.  I have heard some of you on the
list talk
> about some of the models and it has heightened my interest in folding
them...
> Well gotta go so little time so much to fold.  Let see should I start
with the rocking
>horse, last waltz, dancing couple, lord vader????)
>
>If there are any other Canadians waiting for their pakages.  They are
on the way..
>Thanks for letting me share my excitement of getting the convention
manual.
>
>Lynda
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: JacAlArt@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:58:20 -0400 (
Subject: Origami Southeast convention

Sent my check months ago, but have not heard back! Should I worry?

~Alec





From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:28:52 +0100
Subject: Censorship - message titles
Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM> sez

>I have a simple solution- Lets just have a warning in the message title

This would solve *so* many problems as well as saving time. I assume
(rightly or wrongly!) that people use a relevant title to their
messages. On this basis, if I see part of a thread I don't want to
follow, I delete unread. Now if someone simply clicked "reply" & then
wrote a superb message on another subject, they lose out on at least one
reader!

It doesn't take a lot of thought or effort to add a suitable title, &
you give people ample notice of potentially disturbing contents.

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:01:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

>
> > > At 08:44 PM 98-07-27 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >If you ever manage that Lord Vader let me know what that step is:
> open up
> > > >the entire top!
>
> I have successfully completed the Lord Vader model, and I think I see
> the problem (I had a bit of trouble with that step, too). One key is
> that the diagrams are from the top, and they're showing how to
> recollapse the top (although it still stays 3D, but collapsed to a
> point at the top). The next steps work within the opened flap, and
> then close that, too, leaving the model flat.
>

I guess I will try it again. Who knows? I may get lucky :-)

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:06:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

>
> I made the Vader model last night, and if you are refering to steps
> 13-14, they are simple enough, but difficult to see with the diagrams. It
> is not really the entire top, but close to it.
> CTD
Yep...those are the steps.
Simple enough if you can do it :-)
I find every model that I can do simple.

>
> PS, Who liked the models by Chris Durham? :)
>

Hmm...any relation to you?

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Robert Allan Schwartz <notbob@TESSELLATION.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:06:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

I don't have a dictionary handy, but I believe the word "censorship"
applies only to when *the government* prevents you from publishing what you
want. Since the government is not involved in this email list, we might
speak of selecting content, but I believe "censorship" is not appropriate
here.

>Valerie Vann wrote:
>>  . . . those making lists of "child safe" web
>> sites, mail lists, etc. in an effort to appease and satisfy
>> these people will take a safe course and list such sites
>> as "adult content". . . .
>> Many of us on the origami mail list very much want to be able
>> to continue to recommend and provide links to this mail list
>> and its archives without having to worry . . .

I believe you are responsible for what you choose to read.
I believe parents are responsible for what they permit their children to read.
I happily recommend this list to many people, and I don't "worry", since I
expect each reader to make their own choices.

>This is certainly not an easy issue, but I believe that the
>censors have won when they get the rest of us to do their
>work for them. I think we will always engage in self-censorship
>(we will never say everything that's on our minds to everyone),
>but when we do so not because of our own feelings and beliefs
>but simply because of our fear of what "others may think",
>then we have voluntarily surrendered a little bit of our freedom,
>and we may never get it back.

I agree.

Robert

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Allan Schwartz       | voice (617) 499-9470  | Freelance instructor
955 Massachusetts Ave. #354 | fax   (617) 249-0330  | of C, C++, OOAD, OODB,
PO Box 9183                 |                       | and Java
Cambridge, MA 02139         | email notbob@tessellation.com

URL   http://www.tessellation.com/index.html





From: Carole Young <youngcj@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:22:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Help for beginner with bee

For source of large paper, try gift wrapping paper.





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:15:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

The Convention "Sorry Kit" is a kit containing origami
paper, a Convention t-shirt and button, and other
materials given to attendees at the annual OUSA
Convention in New York (the convention, by the way
is open only to member of OUSA, though you can join
when you sign up for the convention, which is in June.
Registration is by mail only , in advance, so if
you're not a member and want to go to one, write early
for a registration packet. See the OUSA web site.)
The sorry kits are intended for those who can't go

The Sorry Kits also include the Convention Annual,
an approximately 300 page book of origami diagrams.
The Annual is available separately by mail for about
$25 from the OUSA mail order Supply Center. Anybody
can buy one; some back issues are available.
Again, see the OUSA web site.

valerie





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:20:39 -0400
Subject: Re: name this model!

At 02:43 PM 7/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I think one name for it is "Ojo de Dios"
>
>They're made with string woven around crossed sticks
>in patterns, and it appears in Latin American weavings.

ah, cool. i'll use this as the tentative name until i figure out whether
that's really it or not. i know i used to make "god's eyes" in elementary
school, but they look nothing like this except for the fourfold symmetry.

peace,
alasdair





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: name this model!

At 01:46 PM 7/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>From the ascii rendering that Alasdair sent I'm guessing the Aztec
>calendar.  Asked all over the office and no one can remember the name of
>the sun god it represents.

already thought of that. i went and looked at said calendar and there's
nothing like what i folded in it....

i also never said "sun _god_" -- i said it was a sun symbol, like something
put in a painting to symbolize the sun. or at least that's what i think of
when i look at it. i may be wrong.

peace,
alasdair





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:19:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

>
> I don't have a dictionary handy, but I believe the word "censorship"
> applies only to when *the government* prevents you from publishing what you
> want. Since the government is not involved in this email list, we might
> speak of selecting content, but I believe "censorship" is not appropriate
> here.
>
My Webster's unabridged dictionary states that a censor can be any
individual and not only a Roman magistrate :-)

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: "Askinazi, Brett" <brett@HAGERHINGE.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:13:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

I think that if there is a french list an under 30 list and an adult
list, that I should have my own list as well.

I might as well get something out of this thread ;)

B R E T T





From: Magdalena Cano Plewinska <mplewinska@MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:33:41 +0000 (
Subject: Re: Censorship - message titles

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:28:52 +0100, Nick Robinson
<nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:

>I have a simple solution- Lets just have a warning in the message title
>
>This would solve *so* many problems as well as saving time.

And if it were a single agreed-on word or abbreviation, that would
allow those who don't even want to see such messages to filter them
out.
--
Magda Plewinska                   mplewinska@mindspring.com
Miami, FL, USA





From: Jean-Jerome CASALONGA <jjerome.casalonga@HOL.FR>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:02:07 +0200
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

        Some of you say that there are teachers that tell their pupills to have
     a
look at the Origami list, and that because in one of the message, there is
the word "Sex", they will not ever come back to this list, and that
Origami_L will be included in the Black list of porn sites.

        Maybe, but what do you think is the opinion of non-origami readers when
they read 50 people discussing during one month about how to represent the
"Repeat behind" symbol !

        I don't know if this list is of ANY interest to a non-folder ?

So, if there is any teacher that is reading this mail, please do something
intelligent : send your kids to a good site, where they will LEARN
something.

        I'm happy to know how to fold Marc Kirshembaum's bee, but that's because
I'm a folder.   Someone who's NOT in origami don't give a sheet (of paper).

        Just my $ 1,000,000,000.00 worth advice !

                JJ Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasalongaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa





From: Michael Gibson <mig@ISD.CANBERRA.EDU.AU>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:38:58 +1000
Subject: Re: Help for beginner with bee

Some more (hopefully) good advice,

- I try all first-time models intermediate or higher using strong tracing
paper or
brown paper on the roll, minimum square size 12.5 inches (the size of my
cutting square). It means I'm not precious about destroying the paper, and
tracing paper can take many layers without creating an unwieldly
thickness.

- If you get stuck, leave the model and try folding a bunch of other
different models of same-to-lower difficulty. Some times when you come
back after
a while you have improved in skill, or completed similar folds in other
models which proved successful. A personal example I am thinking of is
the mouse from Origami Zoo. I tried this model first-up after receiving
the book many moons ago, and crashed about a third of the way through. A
few months later, I tried again and got stuck two-thirds of the way
through (but did it ever feel good to get past that sticking point!). Just
recently I finished the model with 'apparent' ease. Graduating to larger
paper was one of key steps (I had an unhealthy obsession with using 10-15
cm squares for EVERY model I tried).

Good Luck

Regards,

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Michael Janssen-Gibson                 e-mail: mig@isd.canberra.edu.au
ISD, Library                   phone/voice mail: +61 6 (06)  201 5271
University of Canberra
PO Box 1 Belconnen, ACT 2616





From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@MTAYR.HEARTLAND.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:32:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Help for beginner with bee

>Michael Belehradek writes:
>
>(snip) "...I'm trying to make a Bee by Marc Kirschenbaum.  Bee has 103
>steps and I am not able to do step 5 with accurancy.  And when I am at the
>end the legs are so thick that I cant pleat them and they dont look nice
>because my inaccurancy in previous steps.  I think it is the most complex
>model I've done.  On the other side maybe I dont have right paper. I can't
>get kami paper
>so I'm using coloured paper to copy machine. I someone has some suggestion for
>me I'd be happy"
>

I think if you can find it onion skin paper will help, or tracing paper, both
     are light weight and tough!

Perry

Paper, scissors, stone.....
Origami, Kirigami, bludgeon....
pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net
http://www.afgsoft.com/perry/





From: Magdalena Cano Plewinska <mplewinska@MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:33:39 +0000 (
Subject: Re: Why can't we have it all?

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:53:12 -0700, Steve Woodmansee
<stevew@EMPNET.COM> wrote:

>At a large social gathering with all ages attending......most of us here
>would not be likely to .......insist everyone listen to an off-color joke.
> However a smaller group of *like-minded* adult friends might tell
>the joke with no offense taken.  So not all that different from this large
>social gathering.

I think that's a great analogy. I was trying to formulate something
like that but you did it much better.
--
Magda Plewinska                   mplewinska@mindspring.com
Miami, FL, USA





From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@MTAYR.HEARTLAND.NET>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:09:11 -0500
Subject: moving

Hi folks, I am sorry but I am afraid I will have to disappear for a while,
     while I am moving,  Friday is the last day until I get set back up in our
     new place.

Perry

Paper, scissors, stone.....
Origami, Kirigami, bludgeon....
pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net
http://www.afgsoft.com/perry/





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:32:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

>         Maybe, but what do you think is the opinion of non-origami readers
     when
> they read 50 people discussing during one month about how to represent the
> "Repeat behind" symbol !
>
>         I don't know if this list is of ANY interest to a non-folder ?
>
Are you serious? Rest assured. This list is of NO interest to non-folders.
That is why they will have NO opinion on how to represent the "repeat
behind" symbol. The will not have read the thread :-)

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:38:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Help for beginner with bee

Great advice from everyone.  I also forgot to mention that my books are
stuffed with half complete models which I leave right where I got stuck.
Then, as Michael Janssen-Gibson wrote, I come back to them later and
attempt to resume.

Of course half of the time I can't match the pathetic wreckage in my hand
to the diagrams so I'm not really sure where I left off, and so must
backtrack a little.  But I have successfully completed quite a few
difficult models this way.

"Peace In Creases"

Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com





From: Lisa Hodsdon <Lisa_Hodsdon@HMCO.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:40:28 -0400
Subject: [NO] Censor: more definitions

Joseph shared Merriam-Webster's definition of "censor" with us.

I'm intrigued by the difference between Merriam-Webster's
definition and American Heritage's:

From AHD*:
1) A person authorized to examine literature . . .  or other
material and who may remove or suppress what he considers
morally or otherwise objectionable

2) An official, as in the military, who examines personal mail and
official dispatches to remove information considered secret or
 improper.

3) A person who condemns or censures.

[More definitions follow which don't really apply here and finally:]

---tr. v. To examine or expurgate

[followed a few words later by]

censorship: the act, process, or policy of censoring

The "authorized" in AHD's first definition of censor supports
Robert's sense of "censorship" being a governmental sort of
thing, though doesn't require it.

I'm intrigued by the phrase "remove information considered secret
or improper" in the second definition. So would an origami censor
remove information about the secrets of folding Lord Vader that
shouldn't be available to those not-in-the-know and the heresies of
how to use glue?

Lisa
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com

* American Heritage Dictionary, second college edition.
Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston, c. 1982    p. 252





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:23:21 -0400
Subject: Re: name this model!

<< they look nothing like this except for the fourfold symmetry.

uh, oh. well maybe I couldn't tell well enough from the ASCII
diagram what it was.

valerie





From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa_Macias_Carlos?= <CGMACIAS@TELMEX.NET>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:25:13 -0600
Subject: Re: name this model!

        You wrote:

        >At 02:43 PM 7/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
        >>I think one name for it is "Ojo de Dios"
        >>
        >>They're made with string woven around crossed sticks
        >>in patterns, and it appears in Latin American weavings.

        >ah, cool. i'll use this as the tentative name until i figure
out whether
        >that's really it or not. i know i used to make "god's eyes" in
elementary
        >school, but they look nothing like this except for the fourfold
symmetry.
        >
        >peace,
        >alasdair

In reality, the God's eye (Ojo de Dios) is from people that lives in a
town
in Mexico (I don't remember if in Oaxaca or other state) and its real
(indugen)
name is "tsikuri".

/8-) Carlos Garcia





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:26:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Censorship of the List

Two things strike me as odd/interesting about this
thread:

The subject heading is inappropriate to the original
topic, which wasn't about *imposing* selection of
material or topics for discussion on anybody
("censorship"), but about asking people to voluntarily
excercise some judgement about discussing a very
narrow, specific topic, i.e. the particulars/details
of "adult origami" models, and to clearly indicate
in subject headings when they chose to do so. Note:
"adult origami", not sex in general, certainly not
pornography, etc. (In fact, I find the terms "pornogami"
or pornography, as applied to origami or any other
art form a distasteful blanket characterization.)

Since then the thread has escalated into a full blown discussion
of artistic/intellectual freedom, most of which is
irrelevant to the original matter, discussing draconian
measures that were never even suggested, as if someone
had in fact proposed some sort of censorship.

I think maybe it got mixed up in the discussion of
the "no graphic file attachments to the list" discussion,
which some people even seemed to think was an outrageous
infringement of their artistic freedom.
:-)

The second thing I find odd is that for a group of
mostly very savvy internet users, many list members
seem to be totally unaware of the use of filtering
software, used to restrict access to web sites and
prevent email from "undesireable" sources. If a
newsgroup or mail list or web site gets itself listed
as "adult content", those using filtered facilities
for internet access won't have a choice about reading
it, they won't be able to get it at all. The first
origami newsgroup, remember?, which was invaded by
numerous sleeze mongers (in disregard of the stated topic),
and is "filtered" as an adult content group.

But whatever...
time to move on...

Valerie Vann





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:30:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Just received my Origami USA -98 Convention Book

At 06:12 PM 7/29/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Are you speaking of a tie-ship or a Lord Vader figure? I haven't received my
>Annual yet, so I don't know if there's anything besides my tie-ship (under
>the name "Lord Vader's Spaceship). I could help with the Tie-ship, tho.

heh -- and i thought there was some sort of communication to get both of
them in the same book...i find it kind of funny that it was a complete
coincidence.

peace,
alasdair
