




From: Jean-Jerome CASALONGA <jjerome.casalonga@HOL.FR>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:49:35 +0200
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain ?

> First of all, all diagrams should be shaded, even if the model is
intended
> for uni-colour paper. Shading makes many folding errors more obvious.

One thing which I really liked in the book "Origami Animals", by the great
Robert Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaang (oops, sorry, but it seems that the "A" key is
sometimes stuck on my keyboard) is that the paper is represented in 2
colors.  That is that the normal "White side" is slighly greyed.  This, I
beleives, improves the understanding of the diagram.

With Computer diagrams, it's very easy to do.

What I also like is to have the drawing of the finished model on the first
page of the diagram (as in Montroll's books).  Like that, you don't have to
wait the last page to know what's the model will look like.

        Same for the drawings of all the models grouped in one or 2 pages at the
start of the book.

        JJ Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaasalongaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa





From: "Steve Tauber/Steve's Cool Cave..." <spistevo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:52:36 -0700 (
Subject: Re: Starship Enterprise

>
>Larry Hart & Asghar Malik of London have quite a few trekky things, but
>they ain't on-line!
>
 THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Might you also have Asghar's address??

Thank you very much.
Respectfully, Steve Tauber

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@FANTASYFARM.COM>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:06:31 -0400
Subject: Free version of freehand?
Priority: normal
A few weeks back several folk mentioned that there was a free version of
Freehand available.  The only thing I remember was that it came with a CD with
some British [?] computer mag (which dosn't make it much of an option here in
Appalachia..:o)), but I meant to ask [but got interrupted by the convention]:

Anyone know if there's someplace around the web where the free version can be
found?

Thanks!
   /Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:19:56 +0200
Subject: Re: NO: Netiquette (was: Origami Deutschland Convention)

On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Valerie Vann wrote:
> For one thing, who's going to be the mail list police who pass on what
> is an acceptable email setup before someone can be admitted to the mail
> list?

a) Every mailing list has an owner.

b) This kind of mailing list police will not be necessary: Everyone whose
email client fulfills the standards enough to be able to send an e-mail
that is understood by the listserver can read the mailing list, no
problems for anyone. (OK, so there are some problems, ie. with people who
set up an auto-responder while they are on vacation and forget to turn off
the mailing list. But this is a different issue.)

If someone wants to post, however, this is a different issue; then he
should try to produce e-mails that can be understood by the list members.
Please don't act surprised now: This is really a most common thing in
discussions. If I want to take part in a discussion where people from all
over Germany meet and try to speak the old Bavarian dialect[1], I cannot
expect that everyone will understand me. Even worse, if I speak French or
Italian at such a discussion, I shouldn't be surprised if some people get
angry at me or demand that I should not speak up.

And the problem is the same here, only its solutions are a little more
technical: Someone who wants to communicate with others should make sure
that he can be understood.

> And it isn't just work/school systems that cause problems: a lot of new
> PC's are shipping with MSOutlook (one of the worst PIA's IMHO) and being
> used by folks who haven't a clue.

Then they should complain to the people who produce "one of the worst
PIAs" and demand a useful product for their money. Or they should pay
people who do have a clue to solve this problem for them. Or they should
spend a little time and effort on getting a clue. Or they should ask
someone else (friends, workmates, fellow "netizens") how to set up their
e-mail system properly.

This is really not a problem that cannot be solved.

> And should everyone have to turn into an email expert to join an origami
> mail list?

Are you surprised if I answer yes now?

Perhaps some people mistake the scale of the discussions on this mailing
list. This is (although it might seems so) not a friendly chat in a small
group, this is a full-scale panel discussion, with an audience of 500+
people (as of 1998/02/10) and a whole host of active participants. (I
haven't counted it lately, but it should be something between 50 and 100.)

Now imagine you are sitting on a stage with three dozen other people, and
there is a hall in front of you with 500 people who are all trying to hear
what you are saying.[2]

Don't you think that one can expect a little effort from people who want
to be heard by this rather unusually large audience?[3]

Yours, Sebastian                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)

[1] No, I don't speak the Bavarian dialect; in fact, unfortunately I can
speak no dialect at all.

[2] I hope this picture doesn't discourage anyone from posting. If I kept
it in mind all the time, I would never have posted a single line to the
list.

[3] Yes, I do know that this sounds very harsh and intolerant, and I hope
that nobody takes this stuff seriously and leaves the list because of it.
(People whom I would have preferred to stay have left the list because of
smaller problems.)





From: Rjlang@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:21:25 -0400 (
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain?

Sebastian wrote:

> Secondly, diagrams should get by with minimal written comments...

I disagree. I try to make my diagrams stand on their own for the benefit of my
foreign readers; but I also try to make the words as complete as possible on
their own. People rely on the diagrams and words to very different extent. I'm
a diagram-kinda-guy; I frequently fail to repeat a step because I didn't see
the words "repeat behind" right there in plain sight under the diagram,
because all I was looking at was the picture. On the other hand, my main
proof-folder is at the opposite extreme. She sees the words, "Fold the flap
over to the right," and she clobbers me and says, "WHAT flap are you talking
about!!?", when it's perfectly obvious to me that it has to be the one that
the arrow is touching; whereas she wants "the flap at the top" or some such
descriptive. I work from pictures, she works from words; so to reach the
broadest possible audience, you need both.

(And no snide comments about how "broad" the audience is for 250-step cuckoo
clocks, please!)

Of course, when the steps get long and complex, words start to lose their
effectiveness. It's no fun to wade through multi-stage modifer phrases like,
"Take the second-from-the-top white flap that is lying under the tiny white
pocket between the narrow middle layers and tuck it between the long, skinny
point that you rabbit-eared in step 144 and the two medium-sized sink folds
with raw, as opposed to folded, edges..."

(Not that I'VE ever written anything like that...;o)

Robert J. Lang
rjlang@aol.com





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:01:27 -0400
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain?

Robert wrote:

> Of course, when the steps get long and complex, words start to lose their
> effectiveness. It's no fun to wade through multi-stage modifer phrases
> like, "Take the second-from-the-top white flap that is lying under the
tiny
> white pocket between the narrow middle layers and tuck it between the
> long, skinny point that you rabbit-eared in step 144 and the two
> medium-sized sink folds with raw, as opposed to folded, edges..."

So do diagrams ;-). I'd have a hard time getting all of that from words
OR a diagram, that's why having both (especially when it gets
complex) is important!

Jeff Kerwood





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:22:52 -0700
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain?

I agree with Mr. Lang's comments regarding the necessity of comments in
addition to diagrams.  I wouldn't even want to count the times that I was
on the brink of performing a diagrammed step incorrectly before discovering
some helpful text which clarified the purpose of the move.

Viva la text!

"Peace In Creases"

Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:33:57 -0700
Subject: Diagrams, Comments, etc.:  Wish List

Well while we're on the topic of what kinds of stuff would be great to have
in the text that accompanies diagrams, I would *LOVE* to have a little
boxed area or shaded section (notice I've even provided a layout concept
:^~) that would contain:

Papers that would work especially well with this model (not-a-hide,
chiyogami, etc.)
Recommended size of paper to start with
Recommended paper type (colored on one side or two, etc.)
etc.

Of course in my case, it's best if I start with 45" squares each time...
(smirk)

"Peace In Creases"

Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com





From: Dahlia Schwartz <dahlias@BU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:18:01 -0400
Subject: Money folding

These sites are probably old-hat to many ... but a friend keeps sending
me anything having to do with origami, so I thought I'd pass it on.

Besides, I like the part about "origami genius Joseph Wu"  :)

-Dahlia

>Last time, we directed you to origami genius Joseph Wu's home page;
>today, in what we promise will be the last origami link for quite some
>time, we send you off to Money Origami, at
>
>http://www2.msd.si.net/~clay/money/
>
>Don't be thrown off by the Webmaster's (his name is Clay) initial and
>somewhat pitiable claim that "Folding paper money (or 'money origami')
>is my one true creative output." Just run down to the nearest bank,
>get a fistful of crisp new bills (you'll need at least two or three
>for most of the projects), and start folding. Clay's
>photo-illustrated, step-by-step instructions are easy to follow, if
>not lightning-fast to load. And don't miss his links to OTHER money
>origami pages--including Dollar Bill Origami by Bob Nienhuis at
>
>http://www.wgn.net/~nienhuis/
>
>which actually includes streaming video of folding instructions. Where
>would the world be without VivoActive? It wouldn't be producing
>dollar-bill catapults--that's for sure.





From: Dahlia Schwartz <dahlias@BU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:26:28 -0400
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain?

I've come in at the middle of this discussion -- so excuse repetition
please...

I'm inclined to agree with Robert Lang re comments and diagrams.  But I
was wondering if anyone has yet brought up the idea of focusing diagrams
around what folds to make and focusing the comments around technique
issues.   That way, experienced foreign folders might be able to figure
out what's happening w/o knowing what the explanations mean.  But also,
those of us who are trying to hone our skills in ways that go beyond
folding increasingly complex models (I want that cuckoo clock!) might
also benefit.

I'm thinking of little tricks of the trade that have been discussed on
this list -- like putting in comments such as:  try scoring the paper
before making this fold by...., or (one of the things I'd like to learn
to do better) -- here's a method for turning a flap inside out without
crinkling the paper and transforming it into a giant gob of trash...

I'd also be interested in commments that go to design ideas, which do
exist as sorts of introductions to chapters and models in several
books.  Stuff like -- at this point, I noticed I could develop two
additional flaps, so that I could finally get the  101 flaps I needed
for the centipede from one piece of paper (kidding!).

-dahlia





From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:31:17 +0100
Subject: Re: Starship Enterprise

Steve Tauber/Steve's Cool Cave... <spistevo@HOTMAIL.COM> sez

>Might you also have Asghar's address??

9 Mostyn Lodge, 96 Aberdeen Park, London N5 2BG

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





From: Lisa Hodsdon <Lisa_Hodsdon@HMCO.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:56:02 -0400
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain?

Another comment on text w/diagrams...

Even in a foreign language, the text can help. In most
languages, you can learn to recognize phrases like
"repeat 4 times" and (in the case of a Russian kusadama
book I bought at convention) "glue the pieces together."

I know no Russian whatsoever, but the text accompanying
the diagrams was important to my figuring out a move that
I couldn't quite read from the diagrams. By comparing words
with those accompanying steps I *could* figure out and
studying the diagrams and playing with the paper, I was able
to figure out what I was supposed to do. I haven't had much
success decoding Japanese, but there again, I can at least
figure out how many times I'm supposed to repeat a step or
how many modules I need to make. Imagine having to show
with a diagram "now make 59 more modules"!

And when the book *is* in your language, accompanying text
can make folding feel less like decoding. I think Tom Hull's
diagrams in _Russian Origami_ are an excellent example of
combining good diagrams with good explanations. Granted
most of the folds are pretty easy, but I suspect an
English-reading non-diagram reader could successfully fold
most of the models in that book on his/her first try with very
little frustration.

Lisa (using an inter-nymic since I'm pushing T's book) Hodsdon
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:02:56 -0400
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain?

THANK YOU Dahlia!!!

> I'm inclined to agree with Robert Lang re comments and diagrams.  But I
> was wondering if anyone has yet brought up the idea of focusing diagrams
> around what folds to make and focusing the comments around technique
> issues.
<snip>
> here's a method for turning a flap inside out without
> crinkling the paper and transforming it into a giant gob of trash...

I think that is a WONDERFUL idea (excuse my shouting but sometimes I get
TOO excited). I'm not sure I would agree that the "focus" of the text
should be about technique, but I would sure love to see LOTs of tech tips
included along with ~ folds ~ text. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know we get into
other issues about who decides (author / publisher) what goes into a book
and about how putting in more text means there will be less models - but I
for one would rather have fewer models if each were usable (meaning I could
figure out what I needed to do to ~ make it ~ to the end) and made me a
better folder by including good tech tips. My being able to fold one model
GREATLY is better to me than furstratedly flubbing my way halfway through
ten models.

Thanks,
Jeff Kerwood





From: Cathy <cathypl@GENERATION.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Diagrams, Comments, etc.:  Wish List

This sounds wonderful!
                                        Cathy

At 08:33 AM 98-07-17 -0700, you wrote:
>Well while we're on the topic of what kinds of stuff would be great to have
>in the text that accompanies diagrams, I would *LOVE* to have a little
>boxed area or shaded section (notice I've even provided a layout concept
>:^~) that would contain:
>
>Papers that would work especially well with this model (not-a-hide,
>chiyogami, etc.)
>Recommended size of paper to start with
>Recommended paper type (colored on one side or two, etc.)
>etc.
>
>Of course in my case, it's best if I start with 45" squares each time...
>(smirk)
>
>
>"Peace In Creases"
>
>Steve Woodmansee
>stevew@empnet.com
>
******^^^^^*****^^^^^*****

Cathy Palmer-Lister
Ste. Julie, Quebec
Canada
cathypl@generation.net





From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@FANTASYFARM.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:41:19 -0400
Subject: Re: NO: Netiquette (was: Origami Deutschland Convention)
Priority: normal

On 17 Jul 98 at 18:26, Peter Budai wrote:

I think this subject is already beaten to death, but I never take a hint or
get a clue...:o)

> >Why should that be the problem of the several hundred of us who *don't* have
> >broken mail systems or mail systems that can't get configured properly?
> Let >the people so-burdened [...]
>
> We should find solution, rather then telling off those who _can't_ change
> their email systems as easily as you think. I bet they would choose better
> systems if they had the chance.

No one is 'telling them off'.  This is a community and in order to communicate
we need to agree on some stuff.  If folk can't or won't comply, they become a
burden to *EVERYONE* else.  How much expense and annoyance and inconvenience of
the populace-at-large should be tolerated and accepted for the incapability of
an individual?  It is the same reason we don't appreciate folk who post in
funny charsets or use the Windows-Japanese extensions to post in Japanese or a
thousand other variations and sorts of incompatibilities.  It isn't very
friendly to fragment the community into folk who mutually cannot communicate,
and so the ONLY reasonable way to run the list is to ask folk to *post* in a
format and in a way that'll allow -everyone- to read it, having agreed on some
'least common denominator'.

I *know* there are mailing lists that I cannot get on because my
English/ISO-Latin limitations will not be tolerated[*]... I realize that they
have nothing personal against my participation [they might even welcome it],
but I can't accommodate the 'ground rules' for the list and so I move on...

    [*] hint: if you're signing up for a mailing list at a listserv with an
    address that ends in ".jp", you're probably going to not only have to
    speak Japanese, but also run the system-extensions to handle the kanji.

> As for me, I _can_ receive attachments, but I can't surf the Net (not
> because I'm too stupid to click with the mouse, but because it's not
> affordable for me), which is a real handicap. And I would like to surf the
> Net but I simply can't do it. It's not my fault. And just so, the "broken"
> email systems are not their users' fault. Please don't tell them off just
> because they have other (older, worse) system than yours.

Well, first off you've got this 100% *wrong*.  What we insist on for the
origami-l mailing list is *precisely* what "older,worse" systems require.
Email is still firly rooted in the protocols that arose in its early days [mid
70s] and in all this time folk have tried and tried to come up with a
replacement for it, but the old RFCs still hold sway and for all of the
changes the "base level" for email is just what we ask for origami-l:
ISOLatin, no MIME, no HTML, etc.  *precisely* so that folk with "older,worse"
[or minimal or whatever] mail systems -will- be able to participate.

The issue at hand isn't older-worse, but newer-and-broken.  The thing we're
complaining about are folks using mail systems that use *new* stuff.
Relatively johnny-come-lately extensions and enhancements to the old
tried-and-true RFC822 email.  Not everyone can HANDLE those extensions and
enhancements and so we ask folks *NOT* to use them.  I honestly don't see
what's controversial about that?

> >[...] use some other method of participating in origami-l that causes less
> >trouble for everyeone else [do origami-l from home instead of work/school.
> Use >hotmail or the like... the alternatives are near-endless].
>
> I don't know how it goes in the US, but _why_ people should not participate
> the List from workplace/school? Why?

They should.  No problem from me.  [although I think that folk that participate
from work should check with their employers to double-check that that kind of
personal use of their business system is permitted, but that's a different
matter].  The only matter on the table is that whatever system they choose to
use can be set up so as not to segment or exclude or be a nuisance to the REST
of the origami-l community.

> ..  Perhaps they have only that
> opportunity. We should not discriminate them. If I misunderstood you, sorry.
> If not, remember the word "Equality". Those people have the right to use the
> email they have access to.

Sorry, but there are no "rights" involved.  This is a cooperative community
and I think we -do- have the prerogative to demand certain sorts of behaviors
and accommodation as part of allowing someone into the community.

> ..  And think about the people who can't afford it
> (not only email but computer as well).

I confess that I'm not sure what am I suppose to "think about" in this case.
This is an internet-based computer email list, and so ONLY folk with
appropriate capabilities can participate and that leaves a LOT of folk out.
What's the point?

> ... And think about the fact that email
> is a wonderful thing, even if it's an old system. Old things are not _bad_.
> They're just old, and that's it.

Indeed, you have that right and that's the point: our goal here is -precisely-
to prevent people who happen to have -new-, fancy, marginally-RFC-compliant,
maybe-broken mail agents from *EXCLUDING* those folk with old, basic systems.

> As for the solution, I think it should be written in the welcome text that
> no attachments are welcomed by the List (as someone else wrote it). If I
> knew about this no-attachment thing, I myself wouldn't have sent my attach
> some time ago. Perhaps Doris didn't know about it either, but again, it's
> not her fault.

Fault isn't the issue, and I don't think that there's a real problem in the
large, although I agree that the 'you've been subscribed' text *SHOULD* include
the usual litany [ISO-Latin, 72-char lines, no HTML, no MIME, no attachments,
English-only please, etc].  I know that most listservs allow the list
administrator to set the auto-replied 'welcome' message, and if MIT's will I
would join you in recommending that Joseph appropriately update the origami-l
message.

> I think if someone sends an attach, one could simply write "Sorry, don't
> send attach, because it is not welcomed". And that's it. We can be genereous.
> I received kind emails telling me not to send attach, so this can be solved
> smoothly.

Indeed.  The actual proposal, which I still think would be great, would be to
have such messages blocked AT THE LISTSERV.  The -listserv- can send back a
message with the appropriate apology.  this would be the perfect solution IMO:
we wouldn't have list-problems or people getting mailbombed with 10,000 line
digests, Joseph would have fewer headaches, and folks who 'slip up' would get
just a single polite notice from the listserv, instead of being skewered in
public on the list and getting [probably...] a dozen private complaints...

  /Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--





From: Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:05:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Start Trek

Sounds cool! I would love to proof-read your models! I have problems w/
downloading files, so I will give you my address-

Chris Durham
227 B. Crocker Dr.
Bel Air, MD 21014
USA

Could you tell me the complexity(s) of the model(s)?

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From: Ian McRobbie <Ourldypeac@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:16:58 -0400 (
Subject: Re: Start Trek

Dear Donna or Robin,
  I would LOVE to proofread some of your original models!  I love any diagrams
I can get my hands on.  I hope I can help.
                                                              -Ian





From: Nathan Anderson <Changhe@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:55:41 -0400 (
Subject: Help with finding a book

Does anyone know if Viva Origami by Mr. Kasahara is still in print, and if so
where it is for sale?





From: Cathy <cathypl@GENERATION.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:38:58 -0400
Subject: Perry Bailey's D-7 Cruiser

Hi., everyone!
        Just wanted you to know I test-flew Perry Bailey's D-7 battle ship at
Toronto Trek and drew rave reviews from the toughest audience of them
all--the Klingon Assault Group of Canada!  Of course a sense of humour is a
major component of any Klingon fan club, so I folded a fleet of D-7's from
the Canadian equivalent to the US buck--Canadian Tire money!  They loved
it, and would like permission to reprint the designs in their newsletter,
so Perry you will be hearing from KAG Kanada shortly.  Before I start
"advertising" your URL, however, may I humbly suggest you change the title
to your Klinship diagrams?  It's not a BoP, it's a D-7 battle cruiser!!

                                                        Cathy
******^^^^^*****^^^^^*****

Cathy Palmer-Lister
Ste. Julie, Quebec
Canada
cathypl@generation.net





From: Terrence Rioux <trioux@WHOI.EDU>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:37:54 -0400
Subject: Re: How has origami influenced your life?

Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM> wrote:

> I do quite a bit of air travel and often fold during the flight.  I >almost
     always end up talking to someone, especially flight attendants, >who love
     watching my progress.  In the case of the Fuse boxes I give >them away if
     someone comments on them favo

This sounds familiar, although the flight attendants are usually
too busy to chat, and I've never got a free drink!  Usually I'll
start folding something, and if I notice that I've attracted
someone's attention, I'll give the object away.  I've committed
several of Ms. Fuse's boxes to memory and sometimes put a small
crane or LaFosse butterfly inside.  I was on a roll on the bus
coming home from the 1997 OUSA convention, as I had practically
the entire busload of people doing origami from NYC through
Providence!

Terry Rioux





From: Brown Family <pepperb@EROLS.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:46:35 -0400
Subject: Anyone like double-sided-foil?

Group

I am going to have a booth at a craft show before Christmas to sell
Tomoko Fuse four-sided boxes with lids and bases the same color.

The models I have made and "given-away" to my friends, neighbors, and
parents seem to draw the ravest reviews from the boxes with
double-sided-foil.

Though this type of paper cost 3 times more than regular origami paper.
Do you think it is important to stock up on the double-sided-foil and
create boxes out of that for the show or should I stick to regular
origami paper? pepperb@erols.com

Jeff Dean Brown





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:12:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone like double-sided-foil?

>
> Group
>
> I am going to have a booth at a craft show before Christmas to sell
> Tomoko Fuse four-sided boxes with lids and bases the same color.
>
> The models I have made and "given-away" to my friends, neighbors, and
> parents seem to draw the ravest reviews from the boxes with
> double-sided-foil.
>
> Though this type of paper cost 3 times more than regular origami paper.
> Do you think it is important to stock up on the double-sided-foil and
> create boxes out of that for the show or should I stick to regular
> origami paper? pepperb@erols.com
>
> Jeff Dean Brown
>
The boxes always look better out of special paper. I prefer using an
opalescent type of paper for her boxes. As for the cost...if it costs 3
times as much for that type of paper, charge 3 times as much for the box :-)

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Donna & Robin <robin@RGLYNN.KEME.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:19:55 +0100
Subject: Start Trek

Ashgar Malik's E-Mail address is;

2starom@compuserve.com

I have diagrammed a number of my own models and would appreciate it
if someone would proof read them. They have been diagrammed using
VISIO. I could either E-mail the documents or send them by post if
necessary. One of these days I will get round to making my own web site
and have the diagrams on view there.





From: Peter Budai <peterbud@MAIL.DATATRANS.HU>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:26:58 +0200
Subject: Re: NO: Netiquette (was: Origami Deutschland Convention)

At 12:34 PM 7/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On 16 Jul 98 at 8:59, VVOrigami@AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> <<bounce multipart messages>>
>>
>> This wouldn't work even if the listserver could do it, because some
>> mail programs (Microsoft Outlook) and the way some organizations
>> have there Exchange, MSMail, etc programs configured, the individual
>> user has no control over the fact that the darn thing sends multi-part
>> mail, ...

>Why should that be the problem of the several hundred of us who *don't* have
>broken mail systems or mail systems that can't get configured properly?
Let >the people so-burdened [...]

We should find solution, rather then telling off those who _can't_ change
their email systems as easily as you think. I bet they would choose better
systems if they had the chance.

As for me, I _can_ receive attachments, but I can't surf the Net (not
because I'm too stupid to click with the mouse, but because it's not
affordable for me), which is a real handicap. And I would like to surf the
Net but I simply can't do it. It's not my fault. And just so, the "broken"
email systems are not their users' fault. Please don't tell them off just
because they have other (older, worse) system than yours.

>[...] use some other method of participating in origami-l that causes less
>trouble for everyeone else [do origami-l from home instead of work/school.
Use >hotmail or the like... the alternatives are near-endless].

I don't know how it goes in the US, but _why_ people should not participate
the List from workplace/school? Why? Perhaps they have only that
opportunity. We should not discriminate them. If I misunderstood you, sorry.
If not, remember the word "Equality". Those people have the right to use the
email they have access to. And think about the people who can't afford it
(not only email but computer as well). And think about the fact that email
is a wonderful thing, even if it's an old system. Old things are not _bad_.
They're just old, and that's it.

As for the solution, I think it should be written in the welcome text that
no attachments are welcomed by the List (as someone else wrote it). If I
knew about this no-attachment thing, I myself wouldn't have sent my attach
some time ago. Perhaps Doris didn't know about it either, but again, it's
not her fault.

Sometime it may occur that someone who knows about the no-attachment rule,
forgets it for a minute. That time is enough for sending a mail and the
accidentally mailed this before finishing" or "Sorry, I misaddressed the
message". This might occur with attachments as well. "I don't want to send
this attach, I'm dragging it off - but oops... I clicked on the Send-button".

I think if someone sends an attach, one could simply write "Sorry, don't
send attach, because it is not welcomed". And that's it. We can be genereous.
I received kind emails telling me not to send attach, so this can be solved
smoothly.

And again, the welcome text is perfect for telling the no-attachments issue.

Sorry if I wrote biting things here, but not everyone has hi-tec
email-system or is up-to-date Internetally.
And sorry again if I misunderstood you. We both could have a hard day.

Peace, Peter Budai





From: Rob Moes <robert.moes@SNET.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:29:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Help with finding a book/Viva Origami

>Does anyone know if Viva Origami by Mr. Kasahara is still in print, and if so
>where it is for sale?

This is one of the most difficult books in the world to find right now.  It
remains out of print, and I believe only a book search service will be of
any help (and many have been looking.)  The ISBN is 4-387-83008-5.

My understanding is that Kasahara's "Top Origami" was ALSO originally
published by Sanrio in Japanese:  it was translated into English as
"Origami for the Connoisseur" by Japan Publications, Inc. and is to be
re-released this fall--again after many years out of print.

I wonder if Japan Publications is able to exercise an option to re-publish
"Viva Origami" or not....

Rob
robert.moes@snet.net





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:01:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone like double-sided-foil?

The foil boxes should do well around Christmas time...
But it is hard to get good color combinations in
sufficient quantities. But that's a problem with
most modular designs...

valerie





From: Doris.L@T-ONLINE.DE
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:56:00 +0100
Subject: Origami Deutschland Convention-Sorry

Sorry for causing any inconvenience.
Thanks Sebastian I know now how to solve the problem.

Sorry once again
Doris





From: Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:16:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Start Trek

I love complex stuff, so I will be happy to give it a go!

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From: Peter Budai <peterbud@MAIL.DATATRANS.HU>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:42:24 +0200
Subject: Re: Diagrams, etc. Wish List

At 08:33 AM 7/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>[...] I would *LOVE* to have a little boxed area or shaded section (notice
I've >even provided a layout concept :^~) that would contain:

>Papers that would work especially well with this model (not-a-hide,
>chiyogami, etc.)
>Recommended size of paper to start with
>Recommended paper type (colored on one side or two, etc.)
>etc.

__________________________________________________
Like this? Okay, I won't trouble with ASCII boxes,|
this "whole" message is about this subject        |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|

Ah, so! Freedom!

Yes, I thought about every tidbits related with diagrams when asking "What
should..."

I think size is the most important out of the things you asked some rows
above. It's nice to prevent our victims (folders working from our diagrams)
from searching half a day for their elektronmicroscope which they've used 10
years ago when folding for the miniature crane competition. For
lotsoffolds-models, the folder could look at the warning message "an 50"
paper creates a 1^1000000" model" for self-protection (yes, I thought of 1").

Providing info that "Do not dare using 1] paper without metallic layer
2] non-H20-treated material" can save some nerve cells for the folder as
well, finished models are much more restful than finished gobbets...

I like crease patterns as well, but I admit they haven't got such useful
information that they should be included each time.

__

And Many Thanks for all who participate, and will participate this avalanche
(well, nobody went on the icy symbols-issue, but I know it has been
discussed extensively some years ago in the Origami communty)

Happy diagramming, Peter





From: Donna & Robin <robin@RGLYNN.KEME.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:05:53 +0100
Subject: Re: Start Trek

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris T Durham [SMTP:gandalf_15@JUNO.COM]
> Sent: 17 July 1998 19:06
> To:   ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: Start Trek
>
> Sounds cool! I would love to proof-read your models! I have problems w/
> downloading files, so I will give you my address-
>
> Chris Durham
> 227 B. Crocker Dr.
> Bel Air, MD 21014
> USA

Could you tell me the complexity(s) of the model(s)?

Thank you for your interest

My models are fairly complex. None much harder than a Montroll dog. I have a
     number
of models that I diagrammed using paintbrush. Although they came out quite well
     I will
do them again in Visio before sending  them out. So far I have the following;

Teddy bear (with waistcoat and bow tie)
Cannon
Monster (action model of a head)
False teeth (action model, like clockwork joke false teeth)
Treasure chest
Flipper
Glider (flew 96 feet in competition)

Some of these have been in British Origami Society convention books but I have
     not
had any feedback from folders. I have designed a number of Muppet folds. These
     are
also diagrammed in paintbrush but until it get some sort of permission to use
     the
characters I will hold from distributing them.

Robin Glynn





From: Donna & Robin <robin@RGLYNN.KEME.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:19:22 +0100
Subject: great response

Thanks for such enthusiasm everyone! I shall send copies through
the post to Chris Durham (just because that was the first message
I read) and I will E-mail anyone who want's the diagrams and can
accept attatchments. VISIO diagrams have the file extention *.VSD.
I am not sure how well they import into other drawing packages but
if anyone has any trouble I will try to convert them. Windows
metafiles seem to be fairly universal.

Robin Glynn (Harlow, Essex, England)
E-mail robin@rglynn.keme.co.uk





From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@MTAYR.HEARTLAND.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:39:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Perry Bailey's D-7 Cruiser

>Hi., everyone!
>        Just wanted you to know I test-flew Perry Bailey's D-7 battle ship at
>Toronto Trek and drew rave reviews from the toughest audience of them
>all--the Klingon Assault Group of Canada!  Of course a sense of humour is a
>major component of any Klingon fan club, so I folded a fleet of D-7's from
>the Canadian equivalent to the US buck--Canadian Tire money!  They loved
>it, and would like permission to reprint the designs in their newsletter,
>so Perry you will be hearing from KAG Kanada shortly.  Before I start
>"advertising" your URL, however, may I humbly suggest you change the title
>to your Klinship diagrams?  It's not a BoP, it's a D-7 battle cruiser!!

So I get one little thing wrong, like a name, I knew it was wrong, but couldn't
     remember the nomenclature.  Thanks for letting me know!!

Perry

Paper, scissors, stone.....
Origami, Kirigami, bludgeon....
pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net
http://www.afgsoft.com/perry/





From: Robby/Laura/Lisa <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:04:34 +0200
Subject: London

Hi !
Anyone living in London ? Help needed. Please e-mail privately, thanks.

Sorry to the others.
Bye,
Roberto





From: Peter Budai <peterbud@MAIL.DATATRANS.HU>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:56:33 +0200
Subject: Excuse from Peter to Bernie

At 01:41 PM 7/17/98 -0400, Bernie Cosell wrote:

>Well, first off you've got this 100% *wrong*.  What we insist on for the
>origami-l mailing list is *precisely* what "older,worse" systems require.

Pardon. It seems I really got it 100% wrong. But you know, I'm happier for this.

>The issue at hand isn't older-worse, but newer-and-broken.  The thing we're
>complaining about are folks using mail systems that use *new* stuff.
>Relatively johnny-come-lately extensions and enhancements to the old
>tried-and-true RFC822 email.  Not everyone can HANDLE those extensions and
>enhancements and so we ask folks *NOT* to use them.  I honestly don't see
>what's controversial about that?

No, nothing. I got the opposite.

>Sorry, but there are no "rights" involved.  This is a cooperative community
>and I think we -do- have the prerogative to demand certain sorts of behaviors
>and accommodation as part of allowing someone into the community.

Again, I got you wrong. I thought you had spoken against those using older
systems.

>> ..  And think about the people who can't afford it
>> (not only email but computer as well).
>
>I confess that I'm not sure what am I suppose to "think about" in this case.
>This is an internet-based computer email list, and so ONLY folk with
>appropriate capabilities can participate and that leaves a LOT of folk out.
>What's the point?

I thought about those who don't have computer at home but have access to
Internet at school/workplace.

>> ... And think about the fact that email
>> is a wonderful thing, even if it's an old system. Old things are not _bad_.
>> They're just old, and that's it.
>
>Indeed, you have that right and that's the point: our goal here is -precisely-
>to prevent people who happen to have -new-, fancy, marginally-RFC-compliant,
>maybe-broken mail agents from *EXCLUDING* those folk with old, basic systems.

Ok, that's what I spoke for (and first misunderstood you :(

>> I think if someone sends an attach, one could simply write "Sorry, don't
>> send attach, because it is not welcomed". And that's it. We can be genereous.
>> I received kind emails telling me not to send attach, so this can be solved
>> smoothly.
>
>Indeed.  The actual proposal, which I still think would be great, would be to
>have such messages blocked AT THE LISTSERV.  The -listserv- can send back a
>message with the appropriate apology.  this would be the perfect solution IMO:
>we wouldn't have list-problems or people getting mailbombed with 10,000 line
>digests, Joseph would have fewer headaches, and folks who 'slip up' would get
>just a single polite notice from the listserv, instead of being skewered in
>public on the list and getting [probably...] a dozen private complaints...

Yes, that'd be the best!

Oh, c'mon, I had better go folding!

Peter Budai

Just as a side(or rather end)note, I can't mail this directly now (20:10
GMT) to the List, because my access is turned down after 9 o'clock (CET,
which is GMT+1).





From: Paul & Jan Fodor <origami@ALOHA.NET>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:18:22 -1000
Subject: Re: Anyone like double-sided-foil?

> Though this type of paper cost 3 times more than regular origami paper.
> Do you think it is important to stock up on the double-sided-foil and
> create boxes out of that for the show or should I stick to regular
> origami paper? pepperb@erols.com
>
> Jeff Dean Brown

I've made boxes from recycled paper...telephone book covers.  Hawaii has
some really pretty ones and people loved the idea that they were
recycled stuff.  I showed how they were made by inking in a model so
they can see where the lines are and had the boxes ready to fold by
scoring them.  These were not the Fuse boxes of course.  They were the
traditional model...the one that fits the masu box in Origami for the
Connoiseur.       Jan
--
<http://www.gotomymall.com/hawaii/origami/>
Origami by Jan website...the Fodor folder





From: Dennis Walker <d_and_m_walker@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:52:02 -0400
Subject: Diagrams (Re: Start Trek)

Hi Robin/Donna,

        I too would like your diagrams (I have the teddy bear from a
convention book and it's great!)
        Would you be interested in putting the diagrams on the archive? I
think that it's run by Maarten van Gelder. I'm sure that many here would
love to see them, irrespective of format, (although gif would be nice!).

                                        Dennis Walker





From: Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:16:54 -0400
Subject: Issei Yoshino

To all you brilliant origamiasts,

          I am looking or Issei Yoshino's "Super Complex Origami" book. I
wonder if anyone has any copies to spare, or if they know of a place
around Baltimore, MD that has one.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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From: Chris T Durham <gandalf_15@JUNO.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:20:22 -0400
Subject: Favourite Authors

Out of this list, who is your favourite author-

1. Robert Lang      *The best of all, to me.*

2. John Montroll

3. Fumiaki Kawahata     *Close second!*

Thanks!

CTD
The Sporkificator

P.S. Who like my models? :)

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From: Brown Family <pepperb@EROLS.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:31:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Favourite Authors

My very favorite:

1. Tomoko Fuse= great modular boxes

2. Valerie Vann= new modular designs!

3. David Brill=complex modulars.

I love modulars and I think these are the best authors for them.
I don't like animals.
I don't like toys.

Does anyone have the same list?

Thanks. Jeff Brown

Chris T Durham wrote:

> Out of this list, who is your favourite author-
>
> 1. Robert Lang      *The best of all, to me.*
>
> 2. John Montroll
>
> 3. Fumiaki Kawahata     *Close second!*
>
> Thanks!
>
> CTD
> The Sporkificator
>
> P.S. Who like my models? :)
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From: Ian McRobbie <Ourldypeac@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:33:46 -0400 (
Subject: Re: Favourite Authors

My favorite author has been and always will be John Montroll and at a very,
very  close second Robert J. Lang.





From: Peter Budai <peterbud@MAIL.DATATRANS.HU>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:12:55 +0200
Subject: Re: What should a diagram contain ?

At 08:49 PM 7/16/98 +0200, J. J. Caaaaaaaaasalonga wrote:

>One thing which I really liked in the book "Origami Animals", by the great
>Robert Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaang (oops, sorry, but it seems that the "A" key is
>sometimes stuck on my keyboard) is that the paper is represented in 2
>colors.  That is that the normal "White side" is slighly greyed.  This, I
>beleives, improves the understanding of the diagram.

In my opinion, too (that's why I am a follower of this technique). The
tricky think is to find a colour-grey+white-grey combination that prints
well at the same time 1] on the printer 2] in a book 3] when scanned. The
latter is the most cruical...

Peter Budai





From: Peter Budai <peterbud@MAIL.DATATRANS.HU>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:12:59 +0200
Subject: Re: Start Trek

At 10:05 PM 7/17/98 +0100, Robin Glynn wrote:

>I have a number of models that I diagrammed using paintbrush.

Wow! That must mean you're a diagramming genious (and you surely have no
problem exporting your diagram into bitmap format)!

>VISIO diagrams have the file extention *.VSD.
>I am not sure how well they import into other drawing packages but
>if anyone has any trouble I will try to convert them. Windows
>metafiles seem to be fairly universal.

I have never heard about *.VSD (the other could have, though). But if you
can export them to WMF, I'd be happy to see them. Just one question. How big
these WMF files will be?

Thanks, Peter Budai





From: liony azali <fmla@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:17:37 -0700 (
Subject: Give me suggestions!

Hello all,

I'm a beginner origami folder and so far i only did what probably you
called "kid stuff". Anyway recently I'm working on Kusudama book by
Makoto Yamguchi and I did pretty well making models. What book should i
go next which more exciting than Kusudama? i find Kusudama is very
exciting, but i want more challenge :)If anyone in the list can help me
out i would be very happy :)

Liony Azali

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From: Ian McRobbie <Ourldypeac@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:51:45 -0400 (
Subject: I have a question...

Hello list!!,
   I am a motorcycle freak and also an extreme origamist.  I was wondering if
anyone had any books with motorcycles in them.  I am VERY, VERY interested in
the Motorcycle #2 in Super Complex Origami.  I was wondering if anyone has
this book, could give info on this model such as difficulty, paper shape,
size,  number of steps, or even the diagrams for this model.

                                                Thank you all,
                                                       Ian

Person #1: Is that a piece of paper in your hand?
Person #2: Yeah, you wanna make something of it?!!





From: Alasdair Post-Quinn <acpquinn@PANTHER.MIDDLEBURY.EDU>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:02:35 -0400
Subject: Re: I have a question...

At 02:51 PM 7/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello list!!,
>   I am a motorcycle freak and also an extreme origamist.  I was wondering if
>anyone had any books with motorcycles in them.  I am VERY, VERY interested in
>the Motorcycle #2 in Super Complex Origami.  I was wondering if anyone has
>this book, could give info on this model such as difficulty, paper shape,
>size,  number of steps, or even the diagrams for this model.

yes, i was interested in this model too, until i bought the book and found
it was a two-piece model. i'll probably still do it eventually, but i'm not
as interested anymore.

peace,
alasdair





From: Nathan Anderson <Changhe@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:14:14 -0400 (
Subject: Re: Favourite Authors

John Montroll is my favorite, followed closely by Robert Lang.





From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:55:32 +0100
Subject: Re: Favourite Authors

In terms of influence on my own work,

Kunihiko Kasahara
David Brill
Philip Shen

Although there's something good in almost everybody's work...

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





From: Sy Chen <sychen@EROLS.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:41:33 -0400
Subject: Re: great response

At 10:19 PM 7/17/98 +0100, Robin wrote:
>Thanks for such enthusiasm everyone! I shall send copies through
>the post to Chris Durham (just because that was the first message
>I read) and I will E-mail anyone who want's the diagrams and can
>accept attatchments. VISIO diagrams have the file extention *.VSD.
>I am not sure how well they import into other drawing packages but
>if anyone has any trouble I will try to convert them. Windows
>metafiles seem to be fairly universal.
>

Thank you to share it with us. It would be better using ps or pdf format
and  sending it to origami ftp site. Gif would be ok for directly being
shown on web page. I am sure someone can help you to convert it from ps to
pdf format.

|------------------------------------------------------\
|  _   Shi-Yew Chen (a.k.a. Sy) <sychen@erols.com>     |\
| |_| Folding http://www.erols.com/sychen1/pprfld.html --\





From: cyril winebrenner <shasta667@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:28:53 -0700 (
Subject: Re: Favourite Authors

i would be interested in your models.

>From owner-origami@mitvma.mit.edu Sat Jul 18 21:31:56 1998
>Received: from PEAR.EASE.LSOFT.COM (206.241.12.19) by VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM
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>Date:         Sun, 19 Jul 1998 06:31:35 +0200
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>From:         Peter Budai <peterbud@MAIL.DATATRANS.HU>
>Subject:      Re: Favourite Authors
>To:           ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
>At 10:20 AM 7/18/98 -0400, Chris T Durham wrote:
>
>>Out of this list, who is your favourite author-
>>
>>1. Robert Lang      *The best of all, to me.*
>>
>>2. John Montroll
>>
>>3. Fumiaki Kawahata     *Close second!*
>
>The same for me, except that I don't have a third place, since at that
point
>too many authors come into sight.
>
>>P.S. Who like my models? :)
>
>I *do* like Mr. Moon. (Hey Chris, don't be surprised if after this mail
>hundreds will ask you for the diagrams, ;) - in any case, *you* asked
the
>quesion!
>
>Foldingly, Peter Budai
>

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From: cyril winebrenner <shasta667@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:31:48 -0700 (
Subject:

hello im looking for the butterfly bomb or butterfly ball does anyone
know where i can get it?

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From: Peter Budai <peterbud@MAIL.DATATRANS.HU>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 06:31:35 +0200
Subject: Re: Favourite Authors

At 10:20 AM 7/18/98 -0400, Chris T Durham wrote:

>Out of this list, who is your favourite author-
>
>1. Robert Lang      *The best of all, to me.*
>
>2. John Montroll
>
>3. Fumiaki Kawahata     *Close second!*

The same for me, except that I don't have a third place, since at that point
too many authors come into sight.

>P.S. Who like my models? :)

I *do* like Mr. Moon. (Hey Chris, don't be surprised if after this mail
hundreds will ask you for the diagrams, ;) - in any case, *you* asked the
quesion!

Foldingly, Peter Budai
