




From: Thomas C Hull <tch@ABYSS.MERRIMACK.EDU>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:28:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

Jim Alexander writes:

>>>
   Interesting how Mr. Yoshizawa's supreme egotism can be interpreted as
some kind of laudable,arcane spirituality! ...
<<<

WHOA, Nelly!  Before this turns into a Yoshizawa-bashing
session (which has happened before - check the archives)
let's set a few things straight.

First of all, Yoshizawa has received a lot of negative press
in the West.  He is quoted in various origami books and
articles as being paranoid, ungiving, and hateful of genres
such as modular origami or tessellations.  I have met
Yoshizawa a few times, and have learned that ALL of these
things are UNTRUE.  He has been the victim of poor translation,
perhaps, or just plain misunderstanding.

Over the past 4 years or so, Yoshizawa has finally been getting
to more international origami conventions, and this much-needed
exposure has convinced much of the origami community that he
is NOT an "egotist".  At the last Southeastern Origami Festival
in Charlotte I took a class by Yoshizawa where he showed us dozens
of different origami tops that he's invented.  He taught a few
of them to us, and even gave us ** diagrams ** for them!
He only asked that we don't publish them anywhere without his
permission, and that he be given credit if we teach the
models to other people.  Many people in the audience were
amazed - they didn't expect Yoshizawa to be so giving - they
had bought all the negative hype of Yoshizawa being rude
and selfish.

How sad.  How sad that a man who has given so much to the origami
community (it was Yoshizawa, together with Lillian Oppenheimer
and Robert Harbin, who first pushed to popularize origami in the
1950s) can be labeled as a selfish paranoid "egotist", only
because people have mistranslated him or misinterpreted his
actions.

Oh, and Jim, before you donate those Yoshizawa books to your
library, buy a copy of ORU number 5 and look at the full-color
spread on Yoshizawa's work.  Then look back at those "beginner-
level" books and you'll see that, far from having "outgrown"
those books, you haven't even begun to absorb the knowledge
they contain.

--- Tom "no vacancy" Hull
    thull@merrimack.edu





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:33:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

At 11:55 PM 98/06/16 -0400, you wrote:
>   Interesting how Mr. Yoshizawa's supreme egotism can be interpreted as
>some kind of laudable,arcane spirituality!A very overated paperfolder and a
>very small man!The analogy with children is superbly trite,however, to quote

How about this for a definition of egotist: a person who passes judgement
on another without having met him or having tried to understand him.

>     Tomorrow I shall take the Yoshizawa books from my shelves and donate
>them to my local children,s library.They shall go where they belong:in the
>beginner,s section.I outgrew them long ago. Any objections,Mr Yoshizawa?

I would suspect that he would be elated. Yoshizawa often teaches children,
and finds much pleasure in that. I believe that he'd rather his books be
available to open-minded children than be hoarded by small-minded adults.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331   e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:35:06 -0700
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

At 10:33 PM 98/06/16 -0400, you wrote:
>No, apparently he sells only the runts of the litter....
>
>His truly beloved children will never leave his side and shall surely be
>buried along with him when he passes on.  Such is the life of the pharaoh
>of origami.

That's one way to look at it, I suppose.

>I can only say that I am grateful that most composers of music are willing
>to make sheet music available to musicians around the world, so that live
>first-hand appreciation of the art form is possible.  Recall that Mozart,
>Beethoven, and Tchaikovsky are nothing more than dust in today's world, but
>their "children" have been allowed to live on, through the hands and
>fingers of others.

Recall also that composers are paid a royalty each time one of their pieces
is performed publically, especially if it's for money. If you are going to
use the music analogy, you must take it in its entirety.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331   e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:51:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

At 03:50 PM 98/06/16 -1000, you wrote:
>        I'm not sure I understand the analogy.  Is it a reverence to the
>creative process and end product that he adheres to?  I know his
>religion is an intricate part of his origami but I don't understand the
>concepts involved.  I can understand if his ego is so strong that he
>views his works as totally in his control.  The "master concept"  I am
>somewhat acquainted with but when you say he "views them as his
>children",  it is difficult that one would "humanize" his models,
>especially since he is so prolific in the production of his works.  I
>know I am missing a lot of what he is thinking and believing and would
>dearly like to know what it is.  One can not but respect his wishes as
>his genius is irrefutable but other (origami) geniuses have no problem
>with being in the real world.  What are the expectations he has of those
>who fold his models?

I can't answer that definitively. I can only pass on what I've actually
heard, and that is necessarily skewed by my flawed Japanese. He has stated
that his models are his children. He has also said that he views himself as
a vessel of whatever spirits (or God) impart the gifts of bringing life out
of paper. If I were to speculate at this point, I would begin to think that
he might feel like some sort of priest or guardian of the "children" that
God has entrusted to him.

>        I really appreciate your taking time to interpret some of his views.
>Yes, I can change something in his designs and call them my own and I
>suspect that I have already done minor changes simply because folding
>them so small require some shortening of design to accomodate the size.
>But in my heart I know that he is the creator and to defy his wishes
>would be to deny the spirit of origami.  I know too that my models will
>never satisfy him...just making them into jewelry lowers the standards
>in the eyes of purists but origami is also in the history of its
>development an art for the common people.  I don't feel it compromises
>the essence of origami to glue and lacquer them into a wearable art.  I
>think it even makes origami more endearing to the common folk.  At least
>many of my customers give me that impression.

Perhaps he objects to the change in the models imparted by the glue and
lacquer. The tactile feel of the paper is very important to him.

>        Perhaps it rude of me to want to discuss Yoshizawa san on the
internet
>but I felt of all the creators he would be the most difficult to
>understand and yet the realm of origami as we know it almost starts with
>him.  We have an opportunity to become aware of the living history of
>origami and I would to understand.  I am irrelavent to this history I
>know but even getting a negative letter from him was awesome.

True enough. And neither you nor any other paperfolder is "irrelevant" in
the history of origami. True, some people are more gifted than others, and
some make a bigger impression, but origami is a social endeavour as is all
art. Everyone involved makes a contribution, good or bad.

>        I respect your knowledge and intimacy with the creative ones
Joseph and
>will abide by your enlightenment regarding this discussion on
>Yoshizawa.

Please don't count me as an "authority" on creative folders. I have had the
opportunity to meet many people, and to talk to them about their work, but
the true story can only be gotten from the people themselves. I can (and
have) misunderstood what people have said to me, and have been guilty of
passing on that misinformation. Besides, as a "creative one" myself, I have
an ulterior motive in fighting for the rights of designers. Still, being
brash and outspoken, I will always jump into the fray when I feel that
someone is wrong (misinformed, confused) about something. 8)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331   e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:10:02 -0600
Subject: Re: There ought to be a name....

Pat Slider wrote:

> Working on a Kawahata dinosaur today, I thought that there ought to be a
> name for a particular folding method that turns up in his and Montroll's
> models. The method where you create a point of paper by pinching upward,
> flipping an inverted triangle. Expect my English description here is
> somewhat lacking.
>
> Most of you probably have Montroll's "Animal Origami for the Enthusiast,"
> for a good example I will point out step number 1 of the Brontosaurus in
> that book, page 33 in my copy.

It's pretty much a rabbit-ear fold that wants to fold behind, but can't
because there is paper in the way.  So you in corporate a valley fold at the
top, so the fold will stay in front.  But since you preform the whole thing by
pinching the paper, I suggest: "pinch rabbit-ear"

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *          Origamist:         *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Some one who thinks paper   *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * thin, means thick and bulky *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Frommars@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:13:22 -0400 (
Subject: good page?

can anyone tell me a good page on the internet that's got a lot of diagrams in
any format but ghostscript?





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:58:06 -0600
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

Joseph Wu wrote:

> Recall also that composers are paid a royalty each time one of their pieces
> is performed publically, especially if it's for money. If you are going to
> use the music analogy, you must take it in its entirety.

One should also bear in mind that if origami were truly like music, one would
risk being sued if they created a model which was a simple variation of a
traditional model, of which someone had earlier made a simple variation  (George
Harrison: "My Sweet Lord").  Also one might have to pay royalties even if ones
model had some of the same folds as someone elses model (The Verve: Symphony of
Life).

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    *          Origamist:         *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Some one who thinks paper   *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * thin, means thick and bulky *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Marc Kirschenbaum <contract@PIPELINE.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:34:57 -0400
Subject: David Brill in NYC

Hi all,

I just got a call from Jan Polish, who cave me some good news pertaining to
the OrigamiUSA Convention. As it turns out, David Brill will be able to
make it after all! We will still be haveing an illustrious assortment of
other foreign guests (with Japan especially well represented), so you are
bound to run into a few famous people if you keep your eyes peeled. See you
all soon.

Marc





From: "Julian A." <hullianx13@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:08:42 -0700 (
Subject: Do I get Origami?

I just starting doing origami, but I am not sure I understand it or like
it enough to keep doing it.  I started with the Kawasaki Rose.  After
four days of working with it I got I got it.  IT was great.  I started
giving them away, trying to get people to see the beauty of origami-how
one square of paper can transform into a 3-d shape like a rose.  One
day, a girl offered me 50 cents for one of the Kawasaki Roses.  I was
going to give it to her for free.  It made me extremely mad that what in
my mind was priceless was worth 50 cents to another person.  After one
terrible experience after another I wondered wether I am really an
origami person.  I thought maye I did it to impress others.  Now I don't
know if I'm going to keep working at it.  I bought Peter Engel's book
"Origami From Angelfish to Zen" and frustrated myself to produce not so
great results,  I wonder if all the frustration and patience is worth
it.  Obviously, I should have started with a book for beginners, but I
don't like unrealistic and lame models.  Do I really get origami?  I
think I might even unsubscribe to this list as I hardly ever get any
responses to my questions.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:38:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Do I get Origami?

At 06:08 PM 98/06/17 -0700, Julian A. wrote:
>I just starting doing origami, but I am not sure I understand it or like
>it enough to keep doing it.

That is entirely up to you. Obviously, different people have different
interests.

>I started with the Kawasaki Rose.  After
>four days of working with it I got I got it.  IT was great.  I started
>giving them away, trying to get people to see the beauty of origami-how
>one square of paper can transform into a 3-d shape like a rose.

Great!

>One day, a girl offered me 50 cents for one of the Kawasaki Roses.  I was
>going to give it to her for free.  It made me extremely mad that what in
>my mind was priceless was worth 50 cents to another person.

Again, not everyone understands the value of the work involved in creating
(and I'm including both designing and folding in this) an origami model.
Did you try to explain? If not, then there is no reason to be angry. She
simply did not understand. If you did explain and she was unable to
understand, then there's still no reason to be angry. Some people just
don't get it. If she refused to understand, then maybe you have a reason to
be angry...but is it worth it?

>After one terrible experience after another I wondered wether I am really an
>origami person.

I don't know exactly what happened, but that didn't sound all that terrible
to me.

>I thought maye I did it to impress others.

That's not usually a good reason to do things. If you don't enjoy
something, why bother? (I know, I know, there are many good reasons to do
something you don't enjoy...but trying to impress someone is not a good
reason.)

>Now I don't know if I'm going to keep working at it.

Again, that's entirely up to you.

>I bought Peter Engel's book
>"Origami From Angelfish to Zen" and frustrated myself to produce not so
>great results,  I wonder if all the frustration and patience is worth
>it.  Obviously, I should have started with a book for beginners, but I
>don't like unrealistic and lame models. Do I really get origami?

Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. To learn how to do anything, you must
learn the basics first. If I gave someone who does not play piano the music
to a Rachmaninoff concerto, they could not play it. It is necessary to
learn the basics first.

Besides, easier models are not necessarily "unrealistic" or "lame". There
are many simple models that are amazing.

I don't think the question is really whether or not you get origami. I
think you need to learn to walk before you run.

>I think I might even unsubscribe to this list as I hardly ever get any
>responses to my questions.

Once again, your choice. But perhaps you'd have more success if you ASKED
your questions instead of DEMANDING answers.

Having said all of that, I would be disappointed to see you go. Obviously
you are a reasonably good folder. After all, you can fold Kawasaki's rose.
Take some time to learn and to practice. You WILL improve if you do so. And
it's good to learn how to persevere.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331   e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





From: Paul & Jan Fodor <origami@ALOHA.NET>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:51:25 -1000
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

Joseph Wu wrote:
> Please don't count me as an "authority" on creative folders. I have had the
> opportunity to meet many people, and to talk to them about their work, but
> the true story can only be gotten from the people themselves. I can (and
> have) misunderstood what people have said to me, and have been guilty of
> passing on that misinformation. Besides, as a "creative one" myself, I have
> an ulterior motive in fighting for the rights of designers. Still, being
> brash and outspoken, I will always jump into the fray when I feel that
> someone is wrong (misinformed, confused) about something. 8)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
> t:604.730.0306 x 105   f: 604.732.7331   e: josephwu@ultranet.ca

All that is a given, however, in reading the responses of various
people  I know that you have personally been around and had interaction
with many of the "on the frontline" people, I suspect you are probably
there yourself.  Also, I appreciate honesty and openness whether I agree
with it or not.  Thank you for that and I look forward to more.   Aloha,
Jan
--
<http://www.gotomymall.com/hawaii/origami/>
Origami by Jan website...the Fodor folder





From: Dahlia Schwartz <dahlias@BU.EDU>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:26:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

Hi...just browsing back-logged messages & must say that the confluence
of the "Seller's Point of View" thread & the money fold thread struck me
funny.

peace,

dahlia





From: Melody Liao <RabbitMML@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:32:12 -0400 (
Subject: Re: Riddle

That was fun





From: Rob Moes <robert.moes@SNET.NET>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:13:22 -0400
Subject: the wishes of originators (was Re: Sellers' point)
Joseph, in reply to my post:

>>I can only say that I am grateful that most composers of music are willing
>>to make sheet music available to musicians around the world, so that live
>>first-hand appreciation of the art form is possible.  Recall that Mozart,
>>Beethoven, and Tchaikovsky are nothing more than dust in today's world, but
>>their "children" have been allowed to live on, through the hands and
>>fingers of others.
>
>Recall also that composers are paid a royalty each time one of their pieces
>is performed publically, especially if it's for money. If you are going to
>use the music analogy, you must take it in its entirety.

The analogy may not be perfect, but I feel that it does address the key
points.

I do not dispute the concept of royalties and acknowledgment--be they the
result of sheet music, recipes, or origami diagrams.  Admittedly these
logistics can be difficult!  (Who gets the money from compact disc
pressings of the "rediscovered" George Gershwin piano rolls?  Has Martha
Stewart stolen recipes and ideas from others without proper attribution,
and how can we be sure?  If Jan Fodor decides to fold someone else's
butterflies, how much money should she be prepared to offer to the new

Many years ago, I arranged for my high school to obtain sheet music for
Lerner & Loewe's "Brigadoon."  As part of the package, I received explicit
instructions regarding percentage of paid performances that were due,
restrictions on "non-profit" usage, destruction of copies after a certain
time period, etc.

Perhaps authors of models need to become equally as explicit about their
wishes, once the works are published.  The days when an originator can
teach a model in person and convey his or her wishes directly...well, I
hope that Yoshizawa realizes that those days are passing.

Rob
robert.moes@snet.net





From: Paul & Jan Fodor <origami@ALOHA.NET>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:23:08 -1000
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

Thank you all for you comments and support.  I especially thank those of
you who are creators.  Not being blessed with creator talents it was
difficult for me to understand "the sharing so much but not that much"
part of the creative process.  I think when we buy a book we tend to
feel ownership of the book.  We live in a world that requires cleverness
in doing what we can to get ahead and we forget those who put the steps
there for us to step up on.  So, thank you to all the creators who have
shared with us.  If you ever come to Hawaii, Please let me know; you can
check out your models if I have them, I won't give out royalties or
commissions but I'll do whatever I can you make your stay in Hawaii a
pleasant one.  Bring your book, if I don't have a copy I'll buy one.
        Thank you for all the testimonials on Yoshizawa.
Aloha, Jan





From: Maureen Evans <kanga@ESCAPE.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:54:22 -0400
Subject: help

Hi.  I'm new to the list and so far have enjoyed all the information
that is available.  I'm also sorta new to Origami.  I bought a few books
a long time ago and then put it away for awhile.  Since picking it back
up in the last month or so, I can't get enough of it.  I feel like a
little kid, I want to fold everything I find.  I have a ball showing my
kids what can be made out of a piece of paper.  They are always asking
me to show them how to fold the models I have left around the house for
them to find (they are little young for some of the models, but the
enthusiasm is there, although I did show they a simple fish and had an
ocean of them from every available peice of paper)  Even my father gets
into the act and I teach him the latest model I have discovered.

Well I came across something that I thought would be so easy but has
turned into an act of frustration.  So I have come to the experts to ask
for an easy way to do it.  When it tells you to "sink" a part of the
model.   Any sugestions for an easy way?  I find myself unfolding what I
have done so far and then get frustrated. :(  Also, is there somewhere
on the internet that lists the various folds and how to do them?   The
books that I have only give a some of the folds, but don't cover some I
have come across in the models I found on the net.

Thanks,
Maureen Evans
kanga@escape.ca





From: "James B. Raasch" <jbraas01@STARBASE.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:00:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Do I get Origami?

OK, I'll bite...  I will say though, that it wasn't the cry for attention at
the end of the message that made me do it ;)

> I thought maye I did it to impress others.

Trust me, I've tried this before, and, "it don' work quite as good as you'd
like it to".  When I was younger, and less knowlegeable about life in general,
I tried giving Origami creations as a subtle form of flirting with some of the
girls with whom I worked.  To this day, I don't know if they were just humoring
me, but I never ended up dating any of them.

Some people just don't get Origami.  Some people seem to think that anything
made out of paper is worth nothing more than the paper from which it was
made.  I, like everyone here, I can only assume, 'know' this to not be the
case, but, c'est la vie.

As a case in point, I made Lang's Pianist for a (you guessed
it) piano-playing friend of mine who didn't much care about it (I wonder to
this day if she pitched it or not), and I've had people ask me for Joseph Wu's
flying pig models that I'd made for myself (I'm from Cincinnati, and in case
you didn't know, a flying pig is one of the less revered symbols of the
city, thanks Joseph).  It just goes to show you that you can't tell who's
going to like it, except you.

> I bought Peter Engel's book "Origami From Angelfish to Zen"
> and frustrated myself to produce not so great results...

You're right, that is a difficult book to start with, but If you really like
Origami, I wouldn't get rid of it just yet.  The discussion in the beginning
of the book can be difficult to wade through the first time, but I found it
enlightening (especially the visit to Yoshizawa's abode, with a nod to a
concurrent discussion).  Some of the models in that book just require A LOT of
practice (here's a hint, any time he suggests a seemingly huge sheet of paper
for the first try, add a few more inches onto that, if you can find paper that
big).  As an example, the Kangaroo w/ Joey is a good model that takes a few
tries to get right, but isn't so bad once you get it down.  Of course, this
brings us full-circle, since on of the few models I made that I know has been
well appreciated was this Kangaroo made for a co-worker on the night she went
into labor with her first child.  Apparently, the model is in a box of
keepsakes, to be given to the girl later.

As a suggestion for an 'easier' book with good (i.e., realistic) models, I
would try _Origami_Step-by-Step_ by Robert Harbin (ASIN: 0486401367 {ASIN?,
what's that, anyone know}), which can be gotten from Amazon.com for $3.16.
One of the more impressive models in the book is the Full-Rigged-Ship (or
something like that), which is very realistic, but not so hard as to be
frustrating.  Other good models in that book are the Scorpion and the Unicorn
(odd, how all my favorites are by Patricia Crawford, no?).

Well, now that I've taken up massive amounts of bandwidth with my incessant
ramblings, I'll fire this off into the ether, step back and catch my breath,
and secretly wonder if anyone actually pays attention to what I have to say
(Hey, isn't this where the first message left off...)

J.B. Raasch
Can't Leave Without the Last Word
made it this fa





From: Elizabeth George <emgeorge@MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:33:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

> At the last Southeastern Origami Festival
>in Charlotte I took a class by Yoshizawa where he showed us dozens
>of different origami tops that he's invented.  He taught a few
>of them to us, and even gave us ** diagrams ** for them!

I, too, was lucky enough to be in that class... it was outstanding... the
models he taught that day were certainly not the most complex I have ever
folded but the man himself was a JOY! He was entertaining (sometimes
mime-ing or acting out a idea or concept he wanted to convey), funny (told
many jokes during his teaching), and also gave insight into his particular
views or philosophy on folding.
    Many of these insights were quite foreign to some in the class... he
spoke of holding the paper, communing or praying either to/with it before
beginning to fold, in much the same way that a teacher of mine had once
spoken about communing with the clay before beginning to work with it to see
what it wanted to become, at the time, (some 20 years ago) I wasn't quite
sure if maybe she hadn't been drinking her breakfast, but time and
experience had opened me up somewhat so that when hearing Yoshizawa talk
about a similar place to begin, it just seemed that it was probably that
east/west difference of perspective (and maybe not such a bad idea to take a
minute before starting to kind of, become one with the paper, y'know?). He
also talked about how he always liked to start with the mouth or nose when
he folds an animal because there has to be breath for there to be life. I
hope I'm not mis-remembering any of this, I wouldn't want to add to
misconceptions.
    Anyway... I thoroughtly enjoyed the class, felt priviledged to have such
a renown(sp?) teacher, and awed at the sheer volume of work the man has
created. I guess I'm just saying that I, for one, am willing to accept
whatever cultural eccentricities are there as just part of his genius.
Meeting someone in person can certainly go a long way toward dissolving
misconceptions.
    He'll be in Charlotte again this September, I hope to be lucky enough to
have class with him again.
    Just my $02.
-e.





From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@MTAYR.HEARTLAND.NET>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:13:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Do I get Origami?

>I just starting doing origami, but I am not sure I understand it or like
>it enough to keep doing it.

This is a personal choice, a desision we all have to make at one time or
     another, for almost 20 years I stopped as I was too busy raising a familiy
     and working to have time.  Now while I have more time I have less ability,
     but I don't let this stop me, fo

>One day, a girl offered me 50 cents for one of the Kawasaki Roses.  I was
>going to give it to her for free.  It made me extremely mad that what in
>my mind was priceless was worth 50 cents to another person.

I have known people who felt and still feel that Van Gogh was a hack artist and
     all of his work should be destroyed as worthless.  The rest of the world
     still enjoys it.  Give yourself a break!  Every body values art
     differently, get used to it, I did.  (

>"Origami From Angelfish to Zen" and frustrated myself to produce not so
>great results,  I wonder if all the frustration and patience is worth it.

I think so, but I am an admitted masochist!

> Obviously, I should have started with a book for beginners, but I
>don't like unrealistic and lame models.

Some of the best and most elegant models are simple, so are some of the most
     entertaining!  On this one I have to disagree I own a large number of
     simple and of childerens Origami books, I enjoy them tremendosly.  The
     true appeal of simple models is that

 Do I really get origami?  I
>think I might even unsubscribe to this list as I hardly ever get any
>responses to my questions.

Do you think it might be the tone of the questions?  or that they are questions
     calling for a value judgement?  Most of the people on the list will and do
     help if you ask a question that they can answer without getting into an
     argument,  you might say we

Perry

Paper, scissors, stone.....
Origami, Kirigami, bludgeon....
pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net
http://www.afgsoft.com/perry/





From: Chinh Nguyen <chinhsta@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:27:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Thomas C Hull wrote:

> First of all, Yoshizawa has received a lot of negative press
> in the West.  He is quoted in various origami books and
> articles as being paranoid, ungiving, and hateful of genres
> such as modular origami or tessellations.  I have met
> Yoshizawa a few times, and have learned that ALL of these
> things are UNTRUE.  He has been the victim of poor translation,
> perhaps, or just plain misunderstanding.

True or False:

In Peter Engel's _Folding the Universe_, Engel asked Yoshizawa the Western
folder whom he admired most.  What was his answer?  Even in jest, "they
all copy me" is something of a poor answer... at the very least, he could
have said, "Just kidding, really, I prefer not to dwell on such matters."

Which is not to say that he doesn't fold great works, and his wishes to
not have them sold shouldn't be respected.





From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@BBOXBBS.CH>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1998 15:00:39 -0700
Subject: Problem solved! (was:Re: Sellers' . . . )

You just presented a solution to the whole problem of selling origami
jewelry. After all these alterations to the original models by using
glue, laquer, beads, cuts, and what not, it would be fair to say your
models are "Jan Fodor's variations of Yoshizawa designs", or even "Jan
Fodor's designs, inspired by Yoshizawa"...
Many creations are variations of some other models, nobody finds
anything morally wrong about that, and most creators are even proud of
it.

Matthias "tomorrow I'll save the world" Gutfeldt

Paul & Jan Fodor wrote:
> I'm not
> sure if he recognizes origami jewelry.  Besides gluing and lacquering, I
> had the audacity to insert bead eyes into the frog.





From: Corders <jlk@DOITNOW.COM>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:22:01 -0700
Subject: Help finding Daedelus on the web

Hi all:

I've been a lurker for a long time, and have really enjoyed the information
that I've received from the origami digest.  I'm not sure if I'm sending
this email to the right address.  If I'm mistaken, please forgive me.

I recently saw on the web a display that included a heart with a cross and
two beautiful human angel-looking figures.  The figures were described as
"daedelus" by Gabriel Alvarez.  Could someone please tell me if I can find
the diagrams for this model on the web?  If not, where could I find them in
an "in-print" book?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim





From: Carlos Alberto Furuti <furuti@AHAND.UNICAMP.BR>
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:21:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Help finding Daedelus on the web

>>From: Corders <jlk@DOITNOW.COM>
>>To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>>
>>I recently saw on the web a display that included a heart with a cross and
>>two beautiful human angel-looking figures.  The figures were described as
Not truly angel-like, since the wings are one with the arms... If you
actually want an angel model, there are some better suited to you.

>>"daedelus" by Gabriel Alvarez.  Could someone please tell me if I can find
The beautiful Daedalus by G. Alvarez is included in at least two books:
- Origami Monsters and other Mythical Beings, by Jay Ansill.
  It was published in both sides of Atlantic with slightly different names;
  my copy by Cassell (UK) is titled just Mythical Beings.
  Diagrams for most models are awful and the photographs badly-tasted, but
  this does not detracts from the author neither the models.
  The book was available from the Origami Source not long ago.
- El Libro de las Pajaritas de Papel, by Grupo Riglos. The "Riglos Group"
  comprises several talented Spaniard creators like Alvarez himself and Luiz
  Bas Arrechea. This nice small book was published by Alianza Editorial, Spain

Several interesting models by Alvarez are published in collections from
BOS and OUSA, but I do not know about Daedalus.

>>the diagrams for this model on the web?  If not, where could I find them in
Never heard of a public-available version in the web.

        Sincerely,
                Carlos
        furuti@ahand.unicamp.br www.ahand.unicamp.br/~furuti





From: Rob Moes <robert.moes@SNET.NET>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:07:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view
Kim Best:

>One should also bear in mind that if origami were truly like music, one would
>risk being sued if they created a model which was a simple variation of a
>traditional model, of which someone had earlier made a simple variation
>(George
>Harrison: "My Sweet Lord").  Also one might have to pay royalties even if ones
>model had some of the same folds as someone elses model (The Verve:
>Symphony of
>Life).

These are the 90's, Kim!   Get with the program....   :)

These days recording artists are willing to offer a songwriting credit to
someone who may have simply influenced their recording.  Most recently I
recall the Rolling Stones giving a credit to k.d. lang for "Anybody Seen My
Baby" simply because the refrain was so similar to her song "Constant
Craving."  No cries of rip-off, no heavy-handed arguments.  I believe k.d.
mentioned in an interview that she was actually flattered by the gesture.

I rather fancy the tip-of-the-hat gesture for origami models, too--whether
actual royalties are generated or not.  Peter Engel's Knight on Horseback
is obviously an homage to Patricia Crawford's unicorn, and he indicates so.

Rob
robert.moes@snet.net





From: eeeteee <tend2it@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:18:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Favorite Dollar Bill Models

Allen Parry wrote:
>Oh, I need to do a plug.  I just had a call from Jan Polish.  It looks
>like I'll be teaching my class again this year on "How to design dollar

>bill folds" for those of you who are coming to the convention.  I give
you
>the basic tools and techniques to come up with your own models.  I'll
show
>you how to get the eyes on your animals using the dollar bill's
features,
>how to create legs and bodies. I'll also show you the power of box
>pleating.  (I was going to say, "on the fly"... but I have never
>accomplished a "fly" yet .... maybe I can come up with one before
>convention.)

I took that class from Allen at PCOC and it was very informational and
fun.  Highly recommended for any dollar bill enthusist or designer
alike!

A couple of favorites off the top of my head include Phillip Yee's tree
frog,
Herman Lau's flower in pot, and Steven W.'s cat.  Gee, this sounds too
much like Allen's list ;O)

--Eric Tend--
tend2it@ix.netcom.com





From: DGS - Kevin Kinney PhD <kkinney@CAROLINAS.ORG>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:13:07 -0500
Subject: Yoshizawa's top (Was-Seller's point of view)

>> At the last Southeastern Origami Festival
>>in Charlotte I took a class by Yoshizawa where he showed us dozens
>>of different origami tops that he's invented.  He taught a few
>>of them to us, and even gave us ** diagrams ** for them!
>
>
>I, too, was lucky enough to be in that class... it was outstanding... the
>models he taught that day were certainly not the most complex I have ever
>folded but the man himself was a JOY! He was entertaining (sometimes
>mime-ing or acting out a idea or concept he wanted to convey), funny (told
>many jokes during his teaching), and also gave insight into his particular
>views or philosophy on folding.

I was another lucky one there, and I actually have a reason to be grateful
to him for asking that we not distribute the diagrams for his top (not at
all an unreasonable request):  Everyone who couldn't attend the class who
saw the top loved it and wanted to learn to make it, but I felt compelled
to decline, in accordance with my interpretation of the creator's wishes.

So, a day or so after the Festival, I invented my own top.  It was the
first successful invention of mine, and still, after a few more creations,
in the top two of my independent discoveries.

I have Mr. Yoshizawa to thank for spurring me to create my own
interpretation.  With any luck, I'll be teaching it at this year's SEOF.

(but the one I made in his class still spins the best.)

Oh, and on a related note to the original thread:  While there, to while
away a little idle time, I folded my favorite model, Montroll's Rhinoceros
from O. Sculptures.  A woman saw it and wanted to know if I could show her
how to make it (no, I still have to have the diagrams to do it), so I told
her where to find the book and then gave her the completed model.  She was
so effusive in her thanks, which I found a little embarrassing, since Mr.
Montroll was only about 2 yards away at the time, and he deserved the
credit.  A few months later, she sent me $20.00 for the rhino!  John
Montroll, when you come to Chatlotte next, I owe you some sort of
royalties-cash or a drink or something.

Kevin Kinney

Kevin Kinney
kkinney@carolinas.org





From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:07:53 +0100
Subject: Sellers' point of view (more!)

Jim Alexander <jalex@MIDMAINE.COM> sez

>   Interesting how Mr. Yoshizawa's supreme egotism can be interpreted as
>some kind of laudable,arcane spirituality!A very overated paperfolder

You really should do a bit more reading on the history of origami.
Without Yoshizawa, there would be no origami as we no it today. That
people copy him (undoubtedly true) or that he chooses not to let people
sell his designs is really beside the point - he set the standards back
in the 50's (or even earlier) and we are only now beginning to get close
to them.

Isn't it up to the creator to make the judgement? If X & Y say "it's
cool" to sell their designs & Z says "no", why not respect their wishes
& get on with your life?

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





From: Thomas C Hull <tch@ABYSS.MERRIMACK.EDU>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:21:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

Hey, all,

Chinh Nguyen wrote:

>>>
In Peter Engel's _Folding the Universe_, Engel asked Yoshizawa the Western
folder whom he admired most.  What was his answer?  Even in jest, "they
all copy me" is something of a poor answer... at the very least, he could
have said, "Just kidding, really, I prefer not to dwell on such matters."
<<<

Yes, and while I have not asked Peter Engel directly about this,
I now, having met Yoshizawa, interpret this story quite differently.
You see, every time I've seen him teach a class, lecture on
origami, and interact with folders, there hasn't been a hint,
not one sign of this self-aggrandizing attitude.  Thus I've
arrived at two possible conclusions:

(1) That Yoshizawa has gone through a tremendous change in
personality and attitude over the past 15 years, or

(2) That the translator for Engel's interview with Yoshizawa
misinterpreted him.  How easy would it have been for Yoshizawa
creators,"  (which is true) and for it to be translated
as "they all copy me"?  I find this very likely indeed,
especially after having tried to break the Japanese-English
language barrier myself on several occassions and seen how
easy it can be to misunderstand things.

I suggest that all all origamists take "stories" like
Engel's account of Yoshizawa in his book with several
grains of salt.

Perhaps it would help to think of your own friends.  Do
you know of anyone who is very opinionated, or very
outspoken, or has unusual views on various subjects?
How many times have you seen them misunderstood by others?
Careful consideration about this will convince you, I think,
that in all likelyhood Yoshizawa has been characterized
unfairly by the Western origami community.

--- Tom "armchair sociologist" Hull
    thull@merrimack.edu





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:47:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Do I get Origami?

> Do I really get origami?

Julian:

I agree with most of what others have said, but heres my 2 cents worth.

I can suggest, if you do find the inner burning to fold (which it seems you
might be missing), that you DO stay in the group (if only to lurk) and
listen to some of the others good experiences, they are MANY. I fold in
public a lot, people come to me all the time and say "WOW is that COOL"
(and the like). Not everyone will love what you do, but if YOU love it it
will prove overwhelmingly contagious to many other people. I was teaching /
demonstrating at a festival last weekend and two girls (who didn't know
each other) were at the table most of the day wide eyed and wanting to
learn every model I folded - they were enthused and excited - I felt good.

If you're not finding satisfaction folding what you're folding try other
things. I personally love to fold modulars. Perhaps you'd enjoy some of
Fuses boxes (many are FAR from trivial) or other of her modulars.

Jeff Kerwood





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:24:51 -0400
Subject: Re: money origami for wedding/graduation

Allen Parry wrote:

> Have you seen the rose's Vern (in NY) does out of two dollar
> bills....they're really beautiful.  I think he is using Roz Joyce's design
> with is in one of the convention annuals.  At one time I could get them
> commercially....but I think the people who did them are out of business.

Can't say that I have seen Vern's Rose, nor do I seem to know who Vern is.  I
have seen Roz's diagrams, but haven't looked at them in a long time.   At the
time I did look at them, I remember being baffled.  I should go back and look
again and see if my eyes haven't improved in the intervening "years." ;-)

-D'gou
--
end
<a href="http://www.pgh.net/~dwp">Doug's Fun Page</a>





From: Stephen Hudson <Sah5234@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:51:25 -0400 (
Subject: Re: good page?

hey, I don't know the best page for getting nonghostscript diagrams but I can
give you a few of my favorites........
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Sah5234/stephen">Steve's Home Page</A> or
http://members.aol.com/Sah5234/stephen  that is my page and.
<A HREF="http://www.the-village.com/origami/diagram.html">Origami: Diagrams
</A> or  http://www.the-village.com/origami/diagram.html  that one has a lot.
<A HREF="http://www.rug.nl/rugcis/rc/ftp/origami/models.bin/index.htm">gif and
tif diagrams</A>  or
http://www.rug.nl/rugcis/rc/ftp/origami/models.bin/index.htm  more good
diagrams.  <A HREF="http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~vbeatty/origami/folding/">
ORIGAMI Models & Diagrams</A> or
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~vbeatty/origami/folding/  that one has a lot of
diagrams.  <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4091/">index</A>
or http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4091/ that one is in spanish but it
is cool.  <A HREF="http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca/">Joseph Wu's Origami
Page</A> or http://www.origami.vancouver.bc.ca/   that one's great. There are
a few of my favorites. Tell me if you want more. Enjoy!

Stephen





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:24:06 -0400
Subject: good page?

If you check the many page links on Joseph Wu's
web pages that indicate diagrams are available
on the linked page, you will find a large number
of them have diagrams in GIF and Acrobat Reader
format instead of or in addition to Postscript
("ghostscript") format.

valerie





From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:42:12 -0400
Subject: Do I get Origami?

Julian,

This list is about both give and take, and sometimes
someone asks a question that no one feels able to
respond to. Or waits to see if some one else responds
who can better handle the question. Often the questioners
are more numerous than the answerers.

You may have to try again, or change
the subject heading to better reflect your question
in order to get the right person's attention.

Also: at this time of year, many list members who
are students are moving, getting new email addresses;
other people are on vacation.

And a great many of the experienced list members are
very very busy this month getting ready for the
Origami USA Convention. Others of us have full time
jobs and families and many other responsibilities
that keep us from devoting as much time as we'd
like to origami, both our own and sharing our
passion for origami with others.

As for other peoples' attitudes to your origami:
you will have to try to ignore the clods and those
who can only value something beautiful in terms of
its probable selling price at a supermarket.

If origami makes you happy, and finding others (perhaps
not as often as you'd like) who appreciate it is something
that makes you happy, then origami may be "for you".

All of us have gotten in over our heads at one
time or other with an origami book or design. Try
a different book, perhaps one of Montroll's that has
easier (but elegant) models at the front and gets
more complex. Work through all the different techniques;
try bigger paper, or foil, or a different weight of
paper.

And if one of your questions was addressed to me,
remind me. I have over 200 emails in my "pending"
basket right now, and I'm slowly working my way through
them, but I get more every day. And I'm sure that this
situation is the same or worse for all the other designers
on this list, especially the published authors.

Regards,
Valerie Vann
valerie_vann@compuserve.com





From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa_Macias_Carlos?= <CGMACIAS@TELMEX.NET>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:58:06 -0600
Subject: Re: Favorite Dollar Bill Folds

Allen Parry wrote:

        >>
> Gift Ideas, that are good, yet easy to come by (well some, maybe
> not)....
>
> 1) Many of the Fuse boxes can be adapted to dollar bills and make some
> very nice boxes for putting something special (more personal) into.
        <<

What is the strategy you sugest to have a square for a Fuse box using
a bill? Or you use the bill in the rectangular form?

/8-) Carlos Garcia M
cgmacias@telmex.net





From: Pat Slider <slider@STONECUTTER.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:20:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

I think perhaps the reason that the issue of selling origami is confusing
and turns up here regularly (sigh) is that it is more of an unresolved
ethics issue.

If a designer has distributed his work as diagrams, and perhaps a folder
might have introduced some variations, who "owns" the finished work? If you
say the folder, then the folder as "owner" should have the right to sell
it.

An interesting thought exercise might be to imagine finishing a Yoshizawa
butterfly, perhaps sitting at a table during a convention. Would Yoshizawa
then have the right to come pick up the butterfly and take it home with
him?

For myself, I think of this issue as being akin to music. As a musician,
you might buy some sheet music, learn a piece, and play it as often as you
like in your own home and among friends. But if you were to go and perform
a piece in a large concert hall, you might be required to ask permission
and surely you would owe royalties.

I've always thought that some of the confusion with this issue could be
clarified by some extra writing on a book's copyright page. If designers
intend their diagrams for personal use only, they should say so. Perhaps
this would not be quite enough to solve the problem though. How many people
really read the copyright page? And I don't know if it would hold up in
court.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think some of difficulty here is that origami books
copyrights are treated legally as straightforward, "printed material", but
that many designers would like their books to be treated as sheet music.
Perhaps the next time someone gets a book published, he/she should ask the
publisher's lawyers if there is a way to accomplish this in fact?

I'd hate to see the alternative; that is, designers not publishing diagrams
for private use because they can't control the public use.

pat slider
slider@stonecutter.com





From: Lisa Hodsdon <Lisa_Hodsdon@HMCO.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:46:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

In discussing the Yoshizawa issue, Joseph wrote:

>Perhaps he objects to the change in the models imparted
>by the glue and lacquer. The tactile feel of the paper is very
>important to him.

This struck a nerve with me when I read it, but I wasn't sure what
nerve it struck. Then this morning, I realized why sounded right.
I'm going to write this in the first person. I don't intend to say that
I (or anyone else) actually believes it, but bear with me.

Suppose I believe that in creating a model, I have somehow embodied
the spirit living within the paper. The spirit which was once formless
and might have become a foundation for literature or music or
painting instead becomes crane or frog or butterfly as a result
of my involvement. I believe that you do this, too, whether you believe
it or not.

Now if this spirit is a living being, when I coat the paper in laquer,
I am preventing the spirit from ever becoming something else.
I have trapped it in the form I have chosen for it. I have told
the spirit (and the creator of said spirit) that *my* vision for this
spirit is the only and correct one. No longer is it possible to change
the embodiment of the spirit---to change its attitude by changing
the position of its limbs or to release it by destroying the paper.

I want to be very clear that I have NO knowledge about the opinions
or beliefs of Yoshizawa-san. I've not even had the privilege of taking
a class with him, as several others here have. But I think this picture
illustrates how a complex belief might translate into something many
of us would easily interpret as "selfish" without fully understanding
the underlying philosophy.

Lisa
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com





From: Allen Parry <parry@ESKIMO.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:22:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Favorite Dollar Bill Folds

On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, [iso-8859-1] Garca Macias Carlos wrote:

> What is the strategy you sugest to have a square for a Fuse box using
> a bill? Or you use the bill in the rectangular form?

I haven't done one in some time, though I do keep one in my collection....
but I definately use the bill in the rectangular form.  Not all boxes can
be done in dollars....you need to analyze the lock being used to know
which ones can be done in dollars.  I'll have to review one of my Fuse
books to tell you which ones work.

Allen Parry
parry@eskimo.com





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:02:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Do I get Origami?

> Do I really get origami?

Several people have commented about the tone of Julians email and I can
understand where you are coming from. But let me tell you how I read it. To
me it just sounded like someone at the end of their rope. Looking for the
intent or motivation behind his tone I saw (correctly or not?) frustration
so took his comments as ill phrased frustration. We do get emails in this
group from TURE JERKs but I didn't take his as one.

Maybe a story would clarify. My wife and I went skiing (her first time) and
she got on a hill that was WAY to big for her. She fell 20 times and ended
in a crumpled crying cussing heap. Well, after a while of recovery and a
while on the bunny slopes she came to love skiing. What I hear from Julian
sounds like hes in the ~heap~ phase. So Julian, I think you hit it on the
head, "Obviously, I should have started with a book for beginners" - give
that a try and let us know how it goes :-) .

I know we are all adults and need to be responsible for our actions but
sometimes (when I'm in a good mood ;-) I give non-repeat offenders a break.

Jeff Kerwood





From: Arlene Anderson <aanderso@MAIL.BCPL.LIB.MD.US>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:03:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Sellers' point of view

>
> Now if this spirit is a living being, when I coat the paper in laquer,
> I am preventing the spirit from ever becoming something else.
> I have trapped it in the form I have chosen for it. I have told
> the spirit (and the creator of said spirit) that *my* vision for this
> spirit is the only and correct one. No longer is it possible to change
> the embodiment of the spirit---to change its attitude by changing
> the position of its limbs or to release it by destroying the paper.
>
This idea makes much sense and carries through to other cultures as well.
Look carefully at woven Navajo rugs-you will find, particularly in the
older ones before tourists pointed out "the mistake" to trading post
traders, a weft yarn running from the middle or inner pattern of the rug
deliberately woven in so as to provide an exit or path for the spirit.

Arlene Anderson
aanderso@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us





From: "Julian A." <hullianx13@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:06:01 -0700 (
Subject: Apology (RE:RE:Do I get Origami)

The tone of my letter was very childish and petulant.  You are correct.
It was very late and I was tired, but that is no excuse.  I shouldn't
generalize about the easier models being lame.  Making assumptions is an
ignorant mistake.  By categorizing simple models as being lame I have
become the monster that I hate.  Now I see that I am just as ignorant as
the girl who didn't understand the rose.  Perhaps I truly don't get
origami.  I am going to keep trying at it, and see if I truly get it.  I
find it very enchanting (despite it being somewhat frustrating).  As
Joseph Wu said I have to learn to walk before I learn how to run.  As
for the attention grabber at the end, about no one answering my
questions, that was true.  Before I asked several questions about
several things, but few if no one responded.  On the other hand, do I
really deserve a response when I ignore most of the messages?  I could
be more helpful.  For now I just ask if anyone can tell me where to find
enchanting yet simple models?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: David Foulds <fe320473@CR10M.STAFFS.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:35:22 +0100
Subject: Re: good page?

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 Frommars@AOL.COM wrote:

> can anyone tell me a good page on the internet that's got a lot of
> diagrams in any format but ghostscript?

Alex Barber's site at http://www.the-village.com/origami/index.html
has pdf file equivalents of the models available in the Origami Archive.

Perry Bailey has an excellent model archive comprising gifs and pdf
files at http://www.afgsoft.com/perry/

Enjoy.

Dave

--
David M Foulds
dmfoulds@bigfoot.com
fe320473@stmail.staffs.ac.uk
http://www.bigfoot.com/~dmfoulds
