




From: John Tobiasson <tobi@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:36:59 -0500
Subject: Re: A Philosophical Copyright Question

Doug, my name is Tobi and all this copyright info is interesting to me
because I am one who thinks that I have something new, MORF FORMtm.
I named my product Either/Or Origami (tm). MORF FORMtm folds into either a
left or a right orthosceme for the cube.  These little tetrahedrons will
link like units.  Put 12 together in a torus and you have articulating
artifacts.  A professor put up a page for me at
www.britestar.net/tobitoys.com  Want a sample MORF FORMtm? send me your
smail.  tobi...
----------
> From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: A Philosophical Copyright Question
> Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 5:04 PM
>
> Steve Woodmansee indited:
>
> > This is not meant to take an adamant position on the copyright issue;
merely to raise
>
> > 1. I'd be happy to send money to a resource center, clearing house,
publisher or agent on behalf of an author who has produced a diagram I'd
like to have but no such arrangements exist that I am aware of.
>
> Nope, not that I am aware of either.  Actually, I don't expect publishers
of
> paper collections to take the lead on this.  I do think that publishers
of
> audio data (i.e. music CDs) will soon do that.  There are rogue sites on
the
> internet (supposedly) where you can get a CD made with just the tracks
from
> just the artists you want.
>
> The issue comes down to the fact that the copyright owner/holder has the
right
> to decide how they want their materials distributed.  Unfortunately they
may
> act in ways that seem illogical or counter productive to "us" - but that
is
> their right.
>
> The origami situation is compounded because of the somewhat independent
nature
> of models, though there are still enough diagrams for models that start
out
> with:  Fold the previous model up through step 128... ;-)
>
> > 2. Many classic books oft referred to within this list are long out of
print. How will new folders or those (like myself) unfortunate enough to be
without these classic publications have access to them? Not all libraries
may have access to these or be willing to hunt them down.
>
> Well, that is just one of those things about life that sucks.  With any
luck
> Dover will continue to reprint older books, but there is likely to be a
window
> between when the original publisher's edition goes out of print and when
Dover
> can get the rights and reissue it.  In the meantime, scouring libraries
and
> used bookstores (either in person or on the net) is your only recourse.
Most
> origami-ists don't seem to part with their books...
>
> > 3. Books containing diagrams that are available at one's local library
may provide an alternative, but apparently it would be considered sinful to
copy any of the diagrams from one's library book. (Then why do libraries
invariably have a copy machine?)
>
> There is nothing sinful about borrowing the book and making step folds
(see the
> archives for a description of step folds), or heck, even sitting in the
library
> and making step folds of the models you want.  Seems to me that if
someone
> really wants to know the model that bad, making step folds and/or their
own
> diagrams is not a substantial "burden."  As far as I can tell, the burden
of
> not copying only hits on someone who is harvesting large numbers of model
> diagrams without any regard to whether they would ever want to fold
them...
> IMHO of course!
>
>
> >... however, I believe if we followed the stringent guidelines laid out
in some of the previous e-mails, we would also succeed in causing many of
the great works that have gone before to become *extinct* through lack of
access. Is that what we want?
>
> This isn't about "what we want" it is about obeying the legal and moral
> obligations of copyright.  Copyright's purpose is to encourage
publication.
> There is nothing that says any creator has to publish any diagrams, and
> copyright is a way to make sure that they will have some control over
what
> happens to their work.  If someone decides that their work should be
lost, that
> is their decision to make.  The only twist comes in when the copyright is
owned
> by a publisher who is not the creator.  Frankly I'd love to see a small
press
> that could cater to origami creators and allow them to retain their
copyrights,
> but I don't think it would be economically viable.  Perhaps
> Publishing-on-Demand can change that.  But for anything already in
existance,
> the rules are the rules.
>
> > 5. Have OUSA or any of the other origami organizations ever been
approached with the idea of finding some way to make diagrams from
out-of-print books available, while not violating copyright laws? Any
lawyer/folders out there?
>
> Oddly enough, it seems like Dover has been doing a good job so far.
Heck, even
> BOS can't get its _own_ stuff back into print, and OUSA's '95 Annual
Collection
> similarly, so I wouldn't hold out any hope in that regard... The
economics, at
> least for paper printing, aren't there.  Maybe a CD or web or other media
would
> work, but that doesn't address the copyright issue in substance anyways.
>
> > 6. During a class on newsletters I attended several years ago a similar
topic was raised. The rule of thumb given in the answer was "An idea cannot
be copyrighted; only the execution of it." So the irony of this is that
while scanning or xeroxing a diagram would be copyright infringement, hand
drawing and/or using a CAD program to re-create the diagrams in your own
style would apparently be acceptable legally...?!
>
> Correct.  There is also a moral issue here, but if you want to niggle the
> details you could probably get away with it.  If you look back into the
> archives you can find several messages about certain authors who have
done just
> that, and most of those books are still in print (though I go out of my
way to
> avoid them).
>
> -D'gou





From: Gallo P & H <halgall@NETVERK.COM.AR>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:39:46 -0300
Subject: Pierrot

Hi to all,

I need to know if some of you have a diagrams of Pierrot by Seiji Nishikawa.
Please, send me a private e mail, the diagrams or the name of the book.
Thanks to all.

Patricia Gallo

http://www.netverk.com.ar/~halgall





From: "MARGARET M. BARBER" <mbarber@WELCHLINK.WELCH.JHU.EDU>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:57:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Origami Ships

Actually, I have tried cellphane -- It was pretty floppy - and sagged when
I stood it on its side.  Maybe that was the kind of cellophane, though.
Peg Barber
mbarber@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu

On Tue, 19 May 1998, Richard 'of' Foong wrote:

> Has anyone suggested cellophane? It's a bit flimsy though, i think.
>
> Richard





From: STEVE179 <steve179@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:26:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Folding paper in fifths

In David Brill's book he shows methods ( I've forgotten to whom he gives
credit) fro folding in 3rds and 5ths. They are iterative estimations which
converge on the desired split.

----------
> From: Gareth Morfill <gmorfill@REDBRICK.COM>
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Folding paper in fifths
> Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 10:50 AM
>
> Does anyone have any neat, fool (make that idiot) proof methods for
folding
> a exact fifth? Come to think of what about all the other
non-powers-of-two?
> Thanks - Gareth





From: Christopher Straughn <christopher99@MAIL.GEOCITIES.COM>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:04:21 +0000
Subject: Re: Pierrot
Priority: normal

Pierrot can be found in "The New Origami" by Steve and Megumi Biddle.

> Hi to all,
>
> I need to know if some of you have a diagrams of Pierrot by Seiji Nishikawa.
> Please, send me a private e mail, the diagrams or the name of the book.
> Thanks to all.
>
> Patricia Gallo
>
> http://www.netverk.com.ar/~halgall
>
Chris Straughn

Bonan Tagon!





From: Douglas Zander <dzander@SOLARIA.SOL.NET>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:44:45 -0500 (
Subject: NO: any other Esperantists on this list?

> Chris Straughn
>
> Bonan Tagon!

 Chu vi estas Esperantisto?

 Are there any other Esperantists on this list?  :-)
 (I can't translate that?)
 Chu ni havas iun alian Esperatistojn che tie?





From: Robby/Laura/Lisa <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:49:36 +0200
Subject: Re: Have you seen this Origami site ?

Ariel,
At 13.34 19/5/1998 +0200, you wrote:

>There is an interesting Origami site that has been quite unnoticed I guess.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4091/

You guess wrong.... MORGANA has given this notice here, two days ago ! ;-)

Thanks anyway.
Roberto





From: Rjlang <Rjlang@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 04:35:00 -0400 (
Subject: Re: Folding paper in fifths & other divisions

> Does anyone have any neat, fool (make that idiot) proof methods for
> folding a exact fifth? Come to think of what about all the other
> non-powers-of-two?
> Thanks - Gareth

One algorithm, known as "crossing diagonals", relies on the fact that two
slanted lines emanating from the bottom corners of a square with slopes (m/p)
and (n/p) cross at a height x/p=nm/(m+n), so by making p something easy (like
a power of 2) and picking n and m appropriately, you can get any number you
want in the denominator.

Another algorithm (my favorite) is good for approximations. Write the desired
fraction in binary. Assume the "first crease" is the bottom of the paper. Then
starting from the LSB, for every "1" fold the top down to the last crease,
pinch, and unfold; for every "0" fold the bottom up to the last crease, pinch,
and unfold. Repeat, working your way to the left. The crease you make for the
MSB is the desired fraction.

Plug, plug: the CD-ROM, "Origami: The Secret Life of Paper" describes a couple
of efficient algorithms for constructing any rational fraction (fifths,
twenty-fifths, etc.), as well as for constructing approximations of
irrationals to arbitrary accuracy. Contact Casady & Greene, available for
Windows and Mac.

> I still would like a way to divide _angles_, besides lengths.
> [name withheld] could provide a way to get 7ths for his scorpion
> (CBO) without a protractor...
> --Carlos

You can use the preceding technique to approximate angles to arbitrary
precision by constructing a rational approximation to the tangent of the angle
(either using continued fractions or just use a  binary fraction).

And of course, fellow listmember Robert Geretschlager has a whole slew of ways
of folding exact angular divisions for various prime numbers.

Robert J. Lang
rjlang@aol.com





From: "Katherine J. Meyer" <kathy@SILENTWORLD.COM>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:40:49 -0500
Subject: Chat comments

Hi All:

As always last night's chat was very entertaining.

Wet Folding was discussed: Does it qualify as "wetfolding" in this warm,
muggy climate? It was later deemed that "sweatfolding" would be a better
term. :)

And why is it always our "best" models that get destroyed by our cats?
There is a cat out there that is obsessed with a green origami fish.
Gotta watch those cats!!!

One gal told us her story about a motel giving away her origami display
to their clients. (it's only paper)  And another person's display was
ruined when someone decided to glue it to a branch.

Let's hear your Tragic Origami Story.  (maybe we can learn from your
misfortune)

Kathy <*))))><





From: Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:00:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Pierrot

On Tue, 19 May 1998, Gallo P & H wrote:
> I need to know if some of you have a diagrams of Pierrot by Seiji Nishikawa.
> Please, send me a private e mail, the diagrams or the name of the book.

Oops, I was mistaken. That was a clown mask by Hideo Komatsu, not by Seiji
Nishikawa. A hellishly impressive model nonetheless.

Yours, Sebastian                                       skirsch@t-online.de
                        /or/ sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de (no mail > 16KB!)





From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa_Macias_Carlos?= <CGMACIAS@TELMEX.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:16:57 -0600
Subject: Re: Pierrot

Paty:

El Pierrot se encuentra en la pag 132 del libro "The New Origami" de
Steve
y Megumi Biddle. Requiere dos hojas.

(Pierrot is in page 132 of "The New Origami" by Steve and Megumi
Biddle and requieres 2 sheets).

> Hi to all,
>
> I need to know if some of you have a diagrams of Pierrot by Seiji
> Nishikawa.
> Please, send me a private e mail, the diagrams or the name of the
> book.
> Thanks to all.
>
> Patricia Gallo





From: Howard Portugal <howardp@FAST.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:43:41 -0400
Subject: Origami Sighting

There are diagrams for a flying waterbomb on page 314 of just JAVA by
Peter van der Linden. He also references Joseph Wu's old home page at
http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/jwu/origami.html. For you computer types out

there, just JAVA is a pretty good introduction to JAVA for c/c++ people.

The author provides a bit of levity between chapters with interesting
short-
stories and triva. The flying waterbomb is one of these diversions.

Howard

--
Howard Portugal, West Chester, PA email:howardp@fast.net
---------------------------------------------------
"A problem worthy of attack, proves its worth by fighting back."
Author Unknown





From: Rodrigo Pantoja <Pantoja_Rodrigo/santiago-de-chile_tecnologia@SINVEST.ES>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:22:02 -0400
Subject: Late introduction

Hi:

      Mi name is Rodrigo A. Pantoja.  I've been on this list for about a
month now and even though I've posted a couple of messages only now I
realize I hadn't introduced myself.   Just a little history,  I learnt
origami as a child from a couple of books my grandma gave me - can't
remember their titles or authors but I know they were in spanish.  I
hadn't advanced any farther than cranes and flapping birds until I found
Tom Hull's Origami Mathematics Page and decided to give a try at the
intersection of five tetrahedra.  Since it worked out fine I decided to
investigate a little bit more and finally bought some books from
Amazon.com.  I've been able so far to make reasonable renditions of the
Western Dragon from Mythological Creatures by Montroll, Bear from
Origami Zoo by Lang & Weiss and the Horse from (Brill)iant Origami.
Also I managed to finish the Ant from Origami Insects by Lang and the
Nautilus Shell from Origami Sea Life by Lang & Montroll.  I guess
that'll give you and idea of my abilities.

      BTW thank you all for keeping this list really interesting.

Peace,
Rodo.-
mailto: rpantoja.santiago-de-chile@sinvest.es

PS:  Russell said something about an attachment in one of my previous
message.  I didn't attach anything, so it may be something my e-mail is
doing.  Please tell me if there is anything strange about this message,
it should be only plain ASCII text.





From: Carlos Alberto Furuti <furuti@AHAND.UNICAMP.BR>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:18:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Pierrot

>>From: Christopher Straughn <christopher99@MAIL.GEOCITIES.COM>
>>
>>Pierrot can be found in "The New Origami" by Steve and Megumi Biddle.
>>
>>> I need to know if some of you have a diagrams of Pierrot by Seiji Nishikawa.
>>> Please, send me a private e mail, the diagrams or the name of the book.

Huh, I've not a copy of TNO here, but maybe Patricia could be
mentioning another model. I thought Nishikawa-san's model in TNO (it is a
compound one, with a basic face which may be attached to a fancy "collar"
[what do you call that???] and/or hair; an OUSA annual diagram also
included a hat) was called a "clown", not pierrot.
If I remember well, a much simpler Nishikawa *pierrot* face was
shown in ORU, but with no diagrams. I could check later.

Even if I was mistaken about the name (or Patricia actually meant that
"clown"), when asking/answering about a model by name, we should be
careful to remember that a subject may be attempted several times
by the same author. For instance, there are at least three much
different Kawahata-san pteranodons in well-known books:
- O.Dinosaurs (compound, probably an early sketch)
- TNO (IMHO the best one, nice claws)
- O.Fantasy (wing membranes more anatomically "correct", 1-layer thick...)
Another example: J.Montroll has elephants in OftEnthusiast, AnimalO.ftE,
African A.inO., O.Sculptures, O.Inside-out, Favorite A.inO (AFAIK).

        Sincerely,
                Carlos
        furuti@ahand.unicamp.br www.ahand.unicamp.br/~furuti





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:18:43 -0700
Subject: Last Night's Chat

Hi all:

Just wanted to say I had my first try on the chat room last night and had
lots of fun.  "tommy" and I stuck it out till the bitter end after 3 hours
of chatting with everyone.  There was some random session dropping, but
overall a great experience, can't wait for the next one.

BTW, is there an inherent limit to the number of simultaneous participants
in this forum?  We thought maybe after 10 there was automatic dropping or
something...

Origami:  "Stop Drop and Fold!"
Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com
Bend, Oregon
http://www.empnet.com/woodmansee





From: Wayne Fluharty <wflu@HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:21:46 -0700 (
Subject: Re: Shamless Plugs was RE: left-right symmetry

>Does every topic on the list today require a plug for your product ?
>
>Why not just post ONCE and extend your offer to everyone ?

I don't think the intention was to "reply" to the origami mailing list.
I'm assuming those "plugs" were meant to be private messages when he
"replyed" to them...

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From: Jorma Oksanen <tenu@SCI.FI>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:48:52 +0200
Subject: Re: NO: any other Esperantists on this list?

On 20-May-98, Douglas Zander (dzander@SOLARIA.SOL.NET) wrote:

> Are there any other Esperantists on this list?  :-)

We don't need Esperanto - we have Yoshizawa-Randlett
symbols ;)

--
Jorma Oksanen   tenu@sci.fi





From: "Askinazi, Brett" <brett@HAGERHINGE.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:50:57 -0500
Subject: Shamless Plugs was RE: left-right symmetry

Wonder twins powers activate
<FORM OF a Soapbox>

Tobi,
Does every topic on the list today require a plug for your product ?

Why not just post ONCE and extend your offer to everyone ?

Wonder twins powers De-activate

B R E T T

                -----Original Message-----
                From:   John Tobiasson [mailto:tobi@CENTURYINTER.NET]
                Sent:   Tuesday, May 19, 1998 7:26 PM
                To:     ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
                Subject:        left-right symmetry

                Dahlia, hello; I am Tobi and I design and make folding
flexable synergetic
                geometry.  I am printing a MORF FORMtm postcard that
will fold into the
                orthoscheme for the cube, this defines what is left or
what is right.  Look
                at your hand, the thumb goes up, you palm goes out and
your fingers will
                bend another 90degrees.  A professor put a page up for
me at
                www.britestar.net/tobitoys.com  Want a free MORF FORMtm
postcard? just
                email a smail address.  MORF FORMtm has its roots in the
classic sq.

                ----------
                > From: Dahlia Schwartz <dahlias@BU.EDU>
                > To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
                > Subject: Re: correct math term
                > Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:26 AM
                >
                > One more thought--as a crossword puzzle afficianado,
crossword
                > constructors often speak of crossword symmetry.  One
type of symmetry is
                > "left-right symmetry" -- so perhaps a less
mathematically complex but
                > still precise terminology would be something like:
fold along the
                > center line of left-right symmetry.
                >
                > Of course, this could be ambiguous if the folder had
the paper oriented
                > so that the diagonal points were at top and bottom.
                >
                >
                > -dahlia





From: "Rodrigo A. Pantoja" <informat@CHILESAT.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:00:41 -0400
Subject: Late introduction and apologies

Hi:

    First of all my apologies to all of you for my previous messages.  I
didn't know that Microsoft Exchange would send text as an attached rtf
file.  I think this new mail address I'm using now will work correctly,
if not please tell me.  I repeat the text of my last message:

      Mi name is Rodrigo A. Pantoja.  I've been on this list for about a

month now and even though I've posted a couple of messages only now I
realize I hadn't introduced myself.   Just a little history,  I learnt
origami as a child from a couple of books my grandma gave me - can't
remember their titles or authors but I know they were in spanish.  I
hadn't advanced any farther than cranes and flapping birds until I found

Tom Hull's Origami Mathematics Page and decided to give a try at the
intersection of five tetrahedra.  Since it worked out fine I decided to
investigate a little bit more and finally bought some books from
Amazon.com.  I've been able so far to make reasonable renditions of the
Western Dragon from Mythological Creatures by Montroll, Bear from
Origami Zoo by Lang & Weiss and the Horse from (Brill)iant Origami.
Also I managed to finish the Ant from Origami Insects by Lang and the
Nautilus Shell from Origami Sea Life by Lang & Montroll.  I guess
that'll give you and idea of my abilities.

      BTW thank you all for keeping this list really interesting.

Peace,
Rodo.-
mailto: rpantoja.santiago-de-chile@sinvest.es

PS:  Russell said something about an attachment in one of my previous
message.  I didn't attach anything, so it may be something my e-mail is
doing.  Please tell me if there is anything strange about this message,
it should be only plain ASCII text.





From: "James B. Raasch" <jbraas01@STARBASE.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:49:30 -0400
Subject: Re: New Books

> James B. Raasch indited:
<SNIP>
> > prodding on the part of those who want the material is occasionally in
     order.
> ??? What is it that makes "prodding" "in order" here?  I'm confused.

By 'prodding' I meant the polite queries referred to later in my ramblings.
As far as 'In order', Sometimes a creator/digrammer has no idea if a
particular model is wanted.  One way to let them know is to 'prod' them with
an e-mail _ONCE_, and then let them do as they please, waiting for that day
when the diagrams are finally available.  For example, when Joseph gave out
the link for the image of the X-Wing model, I asked if diagrams would be
available.  The reply was, 'in a few months'.  Good enough, now I await their
release patiently (I hesitated putting an example like this in the original
letter because it makes me seem holier-than-thou).

<SNIP>
> In the case of Jeremy, most, if not all, of those models have appeared in the
> B.A.R.F. newsletter.

I know, and I wish I could afford the membership and all the back-issues I
wanted.  I knew this example would come back to haunt me.

J.B. Raasch





From: "Askinazi, Brett" <brett@HAGERHINGE.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:43:26 -0500
Subject: Diagrams on Demand

A while back someone asked if diagrams could be put on a website and
then paid for and downloaded.  Here is an example of a site that is
doing it.  <http://www.jade.dti.ne.jp/~hatori/studio.html>
http://www.jade.dti.ne.jp/~hatori/studio.html

B R E T T





From: RGS467 <RGS467@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:45:18 -0400 (
Subject: Synopsis of Origami Talk:  May 19 --- long

The "Origami Talk" was, again, a  success .  The chat lasted over 2
hrs---[when I left, there were still 3 in the room.  Who knows???  They may
STILL be in there chatting.]

Lots of origami and related issues were discussed,  humor, wit, and insight
was shared, and some technical difficulties were experienced (by some of us,
more than others  :\ )

The group consisted of "posers" and "lurkers" as well as those who openly
identified themselves... (names that you may  recognize from the list.)  In
all, a great mix of enthusiasts... and ALL played well together ; )   An
inside source tells me that the UNAFOLDER made a brief appearance [incognito]
at the chat last nite.

Several expressed their anticipation of the upcoming OUSA convention.  Others
complained they couldn't go for varied reasons.  Then,  the  SEOA(?)  (South-
Eastern Origami Association's  convention in North Carolina was mentioned...
scheduled toward the end of Sept.(?)... and some were considering attending
that one as well.  The room was "abuzz" as it was rumored that Tomoko Fuse may
be present at that convention.    [Is this true?]

Netiquette was briefly discussed...  Someone confessed that they'd been guilty
of posting a couple of inappropriate postings to the listserve. We agreed to
make an effort NOT to clutter the list with any unnecessary or unclearly
titled postings.   [The number of postings seems to be higher than usual
recently... It's hard to keep up as it is: \]

Different papers and techniques involving wetfolding were discussed.
Wallpaper, grocery bags (paper, not plastic :\), and elephant hide. Someone
asked if elephant hide is available by mail order through the Sasuga ... [Is
it?].

Books and models were discussed...  availability, prices, etc....  It's been
rumored that "Origami for the Con."  and "Origami Omnibus" are being reprinted
and will be available for purchase by Sept... [true?]  Brill's new book,
Origami Planet, (?)  will be on the shelves soon, if not already. Yoshizawa-
san's "Origami: Living Nature"  was mentioned as a "MUST" buy ...as was
Nolan's "Awesome Origami."  Someone inquired about Montroll's "Origami
American Style"...  namely, the "robot family" , but noone in the group owned
the book or could recall seeing the robots.  [is this book out of  print?]

Several of Fuse's books were discussed...  "Origami Quilts", "Spirals",
etc.... Her new mask book(?) received rave reviews from the group... as well
as her book, Unit Origami... but most agreed the books are a bit pricey.
(yen/yang sorta thing) Then, speculation was made as to how the instability of
the Asian market would affect prices of imported books and materials.

The argument of modulars vs. single sheet  and compound models reared it's
head only briefly.  Frustration was voiced involving the problem of  "weak
cohesion of finished modulars without g***ing them" . .. noone dared to say
the word...(glue)ssshhhh!!

At any rate, the connection to the server kept booting people and locking
up... so, people were coming and going frequently.   FYI: the server
automatically logs off anyone who has not responded (posted) within a given
(rather short) time span... apparently, to save bandwidth  (and to boot non-
chatters?)

It seems that the room was full at only 10 people.  We got up to 11 once, but
someone was inevitably booted...  a chatter equated the people that were
frequently coming and going to  a game of musical chairs... (complete with
sound effects).   Someone  mentioned they'd heard "that sound effect"
before...  <ZZZZaap>... a bug zapper : \   [ I guess you would've had to have
been there]

 The longer_than_usual realtime lapse between postings was a bit annoying.  We
agreed it was because of the "primetime" _bog down _syndrome.  The server was
apparently full to capacity.  People were  IM'ing us from outside of the
room(via another chat server)... telling us that they couldn't get in the room
because of this.   We DID discuss trying to find a more compatible host...
mIRC was suggested, but the details weren't discussed.  We would like any
suggestions regarding " the perfect chat network"   RE:  most compatible,
user-friendly, etc....  (Email me, personally, so not to clutter the listserve
with this "NO" related topic, please.)

This chat room, Origami Talk at:  http://www.the-village.com/origami/talk.html
, is open to all... 24 / 7.   A chatter remarked, toward the end of the chat,
that he had been logging into the room periodically to see if anyone else
might be there... and a couple of people confessed they'd done the same.  We
all agreed that we would like this site to be used by more people...and at
random  times. [Others may want to schedule informal chats to include those
who can't participate in our evening timeslot.... just a thought.] .  We'll
continue to pop in at random times to see if there is anybody there wanting to
chat.  We encourage EVERYONE who is interested to do the same.

This does not cover  all that was discussed, but my fingers are tired of tired
of typing.  Perhaps someone else (maybe J or Kat) could fill you in on some of
the more amusing moments...(cats???)

Thanks, everyone, for coming... We hope that this chat thing will gain more
popularity as the bugs are worked out.  As soon as we are settled in, the
topics of conversation should become  focused on more information-rich
origami.chat.

Sincerely,

RUSSELL (RGS467@AOL.com) : \

DARE TO FOLD!!!!!!!





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:50:56 -0600
Subject: Re: Pierrot

Carlos Alberto Furuti wrote:

> Huh, I've not a copy of TNO here, but maybe Patricia could be
> mentioning another model. I thought Nishikawa-san's model in TNO (it is a
> compound one, with a basic face which may be attached to a fancy "collar"
> [what do you call that???] and/or hair; an OUSA annual diagram also
> included a hat) was called a "clown", not pierrot.

In my copy of "The New Origami," the composite model is called Pierrot.  I think
they called it Pierrot, because they can't say who it really is.....    BOZO!

No, wait a minute....   Pierrot...    hair....

Oh my God!  They're EARS!

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    * I don't get impeachment.    *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Don't low crimes beat       *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * high misdemeaners any day?  *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: =?iso-8859-1?B?VEhPUktJTEQgU9hOREVSR8VSRA==?= <thokiyenn@GET2NET.DK>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:17:49 +0200
Subject: apropos origami ships in bottles

Cut out the bottom of the bottle
put in your ship
glue on the bottom again.

Greetings

Kalmon the great





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:28:11 -0600
Subject: Re: Folding paper in fifths & other divisions

Rjlang wrote:

> Another algorithm (my favorite) is good for approximations. Write the desired
> fraction in binary. Assume the "first crease" is the bottom of the paper. Then
> starting from the LSB, for every "1" fold the top down to the last crease,
> pinch, and unfold; for every "0" fold the bottom up to the last crease, pinch,
> and unfold. Repeat, working your way to the left. The crease you make for the
> MSB is the desired fraction.

Now let me get this straight. If I want 1/5, I convert 5 to binary, getting 101.
The LSB is 1 so I fold top to bottom dividing the paper at 1/2.
The next is 0 so I fold  the bottom to last crease getting 3/4.
The next is 1 so I fold the top to the last crease getting 3/8.

3/8 equals approx.  1/5?  I don't think so.  What am I doing wrong?

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    * I don't get impeachment.    *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Don't low crimes beat       *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * high misdemeaners any day?  *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Christopher Straughn <christopher99@MAIL.GEOCITIES.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:03:42 +0000
Subject: Re: NO: any other Esperantists on this list?
Priority: normal

I'm an Esperantist.  Why do you bring it up?

> On 20-May-98, Douglas Zander (dzander@SOLARIA.SOL.NET) wrote:
>
> > Are there any other Esperantists on this list?  :-)
>
> We don't need Esperanto - we have Yoshizawa-Randlett
> symbols ;)
>
> --
> Jorma Oksanen   tenu@sci.fi
>
Chris Straughn

Bonan Tagon!





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:06:51 -0600
Subject: Re: Folding paper in fifths & other divisions

I hastly wrote:
> 3/8 equals approx.  1/5?  I don't think so.  What am I doing wrong?

What!  I think I figured it out!  You didn't want me to convert 5 to binary!
     You
want me to convert 1/5 or .2 into a binary fraction.  Obtaining:
.0011001100110011....

So I  folding:  Top, top, bottom, bottom, top, top, bottom, bottom....
And end up using basicly the same iterative method David Brill described in
"Brilliant Origami"  That's cool!!!

Even my calculator with base conversions won't do binary fractions.  So you can
     see
why I was thrown off.

Am I right Robert?

> --
> Kim Best                            *******************************
>                                     * I don't get impeachment.    *
> Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Don't low crimes beat       *
> 420 Chipeta Way #120                * high misdemeaners any day?  *
> Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    * I don't get impeachment.    *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Don't low crimes beat       *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * high misdemeaners any day?  *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: Kim Best <kim.best@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:37:36 -0600
Subject: Re: Diagrams on Demand

Askinazi, Brett wrote:

> A while back someone asked if diagrams could be put on a website and
> then paid for and downloaded.  Here is an example of a site that is
> doing it.  <http://www.jade.dti.ne.jp/~hatori/studio.html>
> http://www.jade.dti.ne.jp/~hatori/studio.html

Well.......   The concept is good.  But I not sure those simple models
are worth $10.   And since the GIF's are free.....

--
Kim Best                            *******************************
                                    * I don't get impeachment.    *
Rocky Mountain Cancer Data System   * Don't low crimes beat       *
420 Chipeta Way #120                * high misdemeaners any day?  *
Salt Lake City, Utah  84108         *******************************





From: JacAlArt <JacAlArt@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:40:07 -0400 (
Subject: Montroll ISBN #?

Please -- what is the TITLE and ISBN# for the latest Montroll book?

~Alec





From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:58:50 +0100
Subject: Re: When to Wet Fold

Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM> sez

>I have to disagree with Nick.... The creases are where the paper fibers break
>when folded, and that is precisely the area you want to have damp so that the
>paper will bend instead.

I'm not convinced - the rigidity of the final design is not achieved
simply by the creased areas, but the inter-relation of the entire sheet
of paper. The more of it that has been dampened & reset, the firmer the
result.

I don't accept that wetting creases allows them to bend rather than
break, but rather that it acts upon the sizing. Having never looked at
the process under an electron microscope, I could be wrong, but it makes
more sense to me...

>folded is that all the creases have already broken the fibers and wetting them
>won't fix that, won't make the creases softer.

This would only be true if your "wet creases bend premise" holds....

Do we have any paper "scientists" on the list? I'd be interested to know
the whole story.

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





From: =?iso-8859-1?B?VEhPUktJTEQgU9hOREVSR8VSRA==?= <thokiyenn@GET2NET.DK>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:21:34 +0200
Subject: Re: attsched

Dear Rodrigo

Your whole message comes as an attached file.
I was surprised too, but it came out
correct in Word for Windows,

Kalmon the Great





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:24:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Shamless Plugs was RE: left-right symmetry

>
> Tobi,
> Does every topic on the list today require a plug for your product ?
>
> Why not just post ONCE and extend your offer to everyone ?
>
A simple observation: some people on this list are very quick when it comes
to criticizing. I guess most of us, myself included, are guilty of this
human foible.

Perhaps Tobi DID think that the messages he sent were private and not
showing up to the entire list?

And when criticizing someone, is it really necessary to
publicize it to the whole list? (Yes I am guilty of the same thing now :-)

And finally why quote the message in question again?

Sorry for my post but certain messages that I see here once in a while do
rub me the wrong way.

And Brett, sorry to have posted this message in response to yours. I DO
enjoy reading your other messages :-)

---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Sheldon Ackerman <ackerman@DORSAI.ORG>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:26:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Shamless Plugs was RE: left-right symmetry

>
> >Does every topic on the list today require a plug for your product ?
> >
> >Why not just post ONCE and extend your offer to everyone ?
>
> I don't think the intention was to "reply" to the origami mailing list.
> I'm assuming those "plugs" were meant to be private messages when he
> "replyed" to them...
>
That was my assumption as well :-)

--
---
Sheldon Ackerman.......http://www.dorsai.org/~ackerman/
ackerman@dorsai.org
sheldon_ackerman@fc1.nycenet.edu





From: Elizabeth George <emgeorge@MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:18:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Montroll ISBN #?

>Please -- what is the TITLE and ISBN# for the latest Montroll book?

Teach Yourself Origami
ISBN 0-486-40141-3 (pbk.)

Has a two dozen or so what I would call simple/(some) traditional models.
Intermediate section has quite a few that I recognize as models John tried
out on his class, Montroll Mysteries (at last year's convention), toucan,
anhinga, cat, canary, camel... then a smallish section (5 models) of
advanced, Fred Rohm's water wheel and impossible vase, and his (John's) own
deer, elephant and bee.





From: Robby/Laura/Lisa <morassi@ZEN.IT>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:55:11 +0200
Subject: Attachments

Rodrigo Pantoja said:

>PS:  Russell said something about an attachment in one of my previous
>message.  I didn't attach anything, so it may be something my e-mail is
>doing.  Please tell me if there is anything strange about this message,
>it should be only plain ASCII text.

The message IS plain ASCII text, but is accompanied by an RTF file that my
mail reader (Eudora 3.0) gets as an attachment (bdy2.rtf) and contains
exactly the SAME text.... Can anybody offer suggestions on how to fix this
? I suppose something must be set in the Options (??).

Roberto

BTW: you are not the only one. I'm getting more and more messages from
other people, with the same boring RTF feature.... >:-(





From: Claudia Grilo <claudia.grilo@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:26:28 +0200
Subject: Origami Books to get started: any suggestions?

Hi,

I'm a origami newbie, you might say. I just started folding about a week
ago, after finding by accident a great origami site, with instrutions to
fold a crane, and i've been hooked to it since then. I've always had an
interest in origami, altough i only folded the simple usual stuff... but now
i've found so many sites (and diagrams..) on the web i might get seriously
into it. ;-)

What i was hoping you could help me now is in finding some good books to
start. I already did a search in books.com, and came up with a HUGE list.
So, if any of you could direct me to some good books out there (ie.
favourites, classics, good diagrams, books to avoid... ) it would be really
great.

Thanks,

-Claudia Grilo
*taking it one fold-at-the-time*





From: John Sutter <sutterj@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:05:13 -0700
Subject: Tuesday's chat room

Greetings everyone,
     I joined the chat in the beginning but I had to drop out early, very
early because of needing the
had trouble staying in sync
with the others.  It must have taken a while to get a good train of thoughts
going with so many jumping
in at different times with different ideas.  I like to do a complete
statement withoout interruption and
then get a response and I found the chat room very disconcerting for that
reason.  I recognised about 2
members of this list responding to topics-Kathy Meyer and Jeff Kerwood.
I've e mailed both before and
enjoyed exchanging ideas with them via personal e mail and via origami l and
I think I prefer those ways
to the chat room, but maybe I'll feel differently after another try at the
chat room.
Ria Sutter





From: Rjlang <Rjlang@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:34:48 -0400 (
Subject: More on folding paper in fifths & other divisions

Kim Best wrote:

> Now let me get this straight. If I want 1/5, I convert 5 to binary,
> getting 101. The LSB is 1 so I fold top to bottom dividing the
> paper at 1/2. The next is 0 so I fold  the bottom to last crease
> getting 3/4. The next is 1 so I fold the top to the last crease
> getting 3/8. 3/8 equals approx.  1/5?  I don't think so.  What am I
> doing wrong?

You don't convert the denominator (5) to binary, you convert the fraction
(1/5) to binary:

1/5 = .001100110011...

Since 5 isn't a power of 2, it's a repeating decimal, in binary.

You truncate and round the decimal at a point where it's an acceptable
approximation (8-10 digits is usually enough).

For example, for 1/5 = 0.200,

    .0011 = 3/16 = 0.188 (sorta close to 0.2)
But .001101 = 13/64 = 0.203 (better)
And .00110011 = 51/256 = 0.199 (pretty good)

So the sequence of folds for this last fraction would be (1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0,
0); your final fold would be 51/256.

For this example, the exact solution for 1/5 based on crossing diagonals is a
lot simpler (see the start of the Butterfly in Origami Insects), so you
wouldn't use the binary algorithm here. When I need to locate a reference
point, I usually look at a couple different ways of finding the reference and
pick the simplest one.

By the way, using this analysis, you can see why the well-known iterative
method for getting 1/3 works, because 1/3 in binary is 0.01010101..., which
gives the folding method is top, bottom, top, bottom, etc.

You can also use this idea to answer an interesting problem: suppose you pick
an arbitrary sequence of top/bottom folds and repeat it over and over. Does it
converge? To what? The solution is, as they say, left as an exercise for the
reader.

Robert J. Lang
rjlang@aol.com





From: Kimberly Crane <kcrane@KIMSCRANE.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 06:02:16 -0400
Subject: Re: New Books Update

Hello Everyone:
I would like to say that YES the books, Origami Omnibus by Kunihiko
Kasahara and Origami for the Connoisseur by Kunihiko/Toshie Takahama
will be available this September.  I will have pictures and write-ups on
these two books this weekend on my site.  These books are reprints with
only a picture change to the cover.  (We are taking orders :-)

Also want to confirm that Tomoko Fuse will be at the Southeastern
Origami Festival (SEOF) in Charlotte, North Carolina from 22-27
September 1998.  For more information contact Jonathan Baxter, P.O. Box
2573, Charlotte, NC. 28247 or jbax@mindspring.com

Sincerely,
Kimberly Crane
http://www.kimscrane.com





From: Nick Robinson <nick@CHEESYPEAS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:03:30 +0100
Subject: Re: Montroll ISBN #?

JacAlArt <JacAlArt@AOL.COM> sez

> what is the TITLE and ISBN# for the latest Montroll book?

Teach yourself Origami (NOT to be confused with the harbin classic!)
ISBN 1-877656-12-7

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:11:06 -0400
Subject: Re: New Books Update

What are the costs?

----------
> From: Kimberly Crane <kcrane@KIMSCRANE.COM>
> To: ORIGAMI@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: New Books Update
> Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 6:02 AM
>
> Hello Everyone:
> I would like to say that YES the books, Origami Omnibus by Kunihiko
> Kasahara and Origami for the Connoisseur by Kunihiko/Toshie Takahama
> will be available this September.  I will have pictures and write-ups on
> these two books this weekend on my site.  These books are reprints with
> only a picture change to the cover.  (We are taking orders :-)
>
> Also want to confirm that Tomoko Fuse will be at the Southeastern
> Origami Festival (SEOF) in Charlotte, North Carolina from 22-27
> September 1998.  For more information contact Jonathan Baxter, P.O. Box
> 2573, Charlotte, NC. 28247 or jbax@mindspring.com
>
> Sincerely,
> Kimberly Crane
> http://www.kimscrane.com





From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Tuesday's chat room

John Sutter wrote,

> It must have taken a while to get a good train of thoughts
> going with so many jumping
> in at different times with different ideas.  I like to do a complete
> statement withoout interruption and
> then get a response and I found the chat room very disconcerting for that
> reason.

Me too. What I was expecting to happen, and what really happened were not
the same. It is the nature of chats to jump in and say whatever you want
whenever you want and thats the way it should be. But what I had trouble
with was how many topics were going on concurrently and how they weren't
the topics that were advertised. I was expecting ~someone~ (whoever
advertised the topic?) to kind of drive the conversation (or at least
initiate a conversion on the topic(s) advertised) - that didn't happen
while I was there. I don't care how many people are talking at the same
time as long as they are all on the same topic, having the same
conversation, about (at least some of the time) the advertised topics.

> I've e mailed both before and
> enjoyed exchanging ideas with them via personal e mail and via origami l
> and I think I prefer those ways
> to the chat room, but maybe I'll feel differently after another try at
> the chat room.

The chats should be whatever the group wants them to be and if most
are (as previous emails have suggested) happy, then best of luck
(not said sarcastically). However I don't expect I'll be joining the
chats too often unless I can expect that they will be "on topic" at least
most of the time.

Bye, Jeff





From: Jane Rosemarin <jfrmpls@SPACESTAR.NET>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:31:00 +0100
Subject: Re: Origami Books to get started: any suggestions?

Hi, Claudia!

I think you will be amazed at how quickly you move beyond the beginner
stage (Adults seem to progress rapidly.). Here are three books, suitable
for beginners, that have models even an ancient folder would be delighted
to know:

The Magic of Origami by Alice Gray and Kunihiko Kasahara
Paper Creations by Gay Merrill Gross
Origami, Plain and Simple by Robert Neale and Thomas Hull

Enjoy your new hobby!

-Jane





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:38:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Origami Fact sheet for new folk on this list

Jeff Writes: ...(snip)... we are also getting lots of questions that have
been answered
>by this group frequently. I am thinking it might be a good idea if we put
>together a "New Member FAQ Email"...

I was thinking about this recently as I guiltily (is that a word?)
submitted various questions about wet-folding, which has been discussed
exhaustively on any number of prior occasions.  Past discussions
notwithstanding, I submitted the questions anyway because:

        1       I wanted a fresh perspective
        2       A lot of the previous discussions in the archives were quite
     lengthy and
most consisted of friendly chat on this topic,          but not necessarily
     geared
to my current question.
        3       There are, as Jeff notes, a lot of new users on this list
        4       New books, conventions, techniques are developing all the time

The above list of excuses was instrumental in assuaging my guilt at the
time, feel free to use it for any other re-hashed topics any of you wish to
raise : ^~)

Although I like Jeff's suggestion very much, I do appreciate the re-hashed
topics because the more experience I get as a folder the more my
perspective changes.  I also like to hear from new users having old
problems because it doesn't make me feel as stupid as the discussion of
binary logic does.(!)

Just my $.02 - ignore and ridicule as needed. ; )

Origami:  "Stop Drop and Fold!"
Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com
Bend, Oregon
http://www.empnet.com/woodmansee





From: Jane Rosemarin <jfrmpls@SPACESTAR.NET>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:39:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Chat comments

Kathy <*))))>< wrote:

>Let's hear your Tragic Origami Story.  (maybe we can learn from your
>misfortune)

Yesterday, I threw away my best Kawasaki rose. It was folded from white
washi and was sitting in a dark corner of my kitchen. I thought it was a
used paper towel (!) so I swiped at it, crushed it and threw it in the
trash. I should have made one of Joseph Wu's bases for it sooner.

-Jane





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:26:34 -0700
Subject: Tuesday's Chat and Others

How about for the time being we let the scheduled chats remain the (very
fun IMHO) free-for-all they have been and schedule specific times to meet
people we'd like to talk with by mutual agreement?  My understanding was
that the chat room is always available, so you can schedule chats anytime -
right?

I understood some of the other mails this morning and the frustrations some
folks had with the format.  It is true that the topics went all over the
place, but that was part of the fun - just like a real conversation.  Try
getting 10-11 people to stay on track at a party and you'll probably have
about the same results.

But just for the record, *everyone* in the chat room was friendly and all
input was appreciated, even those that were not specifically responded to.
(<----Ending a sentence in a preposition - how the mighty grammarians have
fallen...sigh)

Hope Jeff & Russell will give it another try!

Origami:  "Stop Drop and Fold!"
Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com
Bend, Oregon
http://www.empnet.com/woodmansee





From: Steve Woodmansee <stevew@EMPNET.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:26:35 -0700
Subject: Re: A Philosophical Copyright Question

Okay, I've been converted.  D'gou's response to my "Philosophical Copyright
Question" was eloquent and dead on.  Obviously we can't look at the issue
principle.  D'gou accurately points a spotlight on what is morally and
legally right, leaving the rest of us *sans* a few diagrams we'd really
love to have but still able to sleep at night with clear origami consciences.

I bow to your superior wisdom, D'gou!  (still sniffing) ; )

Origami:  "Stop Drop and Fold!"
Steve Woodmansee
stevew@empnet.com
Bend, Oregon
http://www.empnet.com/woodmansee





From: Doug Philips <dwp@TRANSARC.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:38:04 -0400
Subject: Re: When to Wet Fold

Nick Robinson wrote:
> I'm not convinced - the rigidity of the final design is not achieved
> simply by the creased areas, but the inter-relation of the entire sheet
> of paper. The more of it that has been dampened & reset, the firmer the
> result.

Depends.  Look at Jackson's "one crease" models.  Tension in the paper gives a
very firm result.  But the wetting of a sheet while "folding" does allow one to
"lock in" curves where there is no strong creasing, just a bend, etc.  As for
the "creased areas" those are the weakest parts of a dry folded model (ever
notice how easily the center of a sheet folded into a frog base can tear?).

> I don't accept that wetting creases allows them to bend rather than
> break, but rather that it acts upon the sizing. Having never looked at
> the process under an electron microscope, I could be wrong, but it makes
> more sense to me...

Well, I suppose you could hypothesize that the paper fibers exist soley for the
sizing to hold on to, and that is is the sizing which breaks when folded dry...
but whatever the mechansim, dry folding breaks the paper (either fibers, size,
or both), and wet folding does not.

> >folded is that all the creases have already broken the fibers and wetting
     them
> >won't fix that, won't make the creases softer.
>
> This would only be true if your "wet creases bend premise" holds....

Well, having used dry folding to "cut" paper, I would have to say that when dry
folding and creasing at the same part over and over, the paper is definitly
breaking, which is why it is so easy to tear a very nice edge along a crease
line.  Try the same thing with wetted paper.  You do not get a nice clean
edge.  In fact, many books explicitly recommend wetting paper to get a faux
deckled edge, and the results look suprising similar to whole paper fibers that
have slipped apart (the sizing being rewetted).  Since most of those techniques

> Do we have any paper "scientists" on the list? I'd be interested to know
> the whole story.

Or even just anyone with casual access to a scanning electron microscope! ;-)

Actually, I think that there are two separate, but none-the-less interacting
things going on with wet folding:
        A) Sizing is re-wet and allows the paper to dry and stay in a different
                shape from the original sheet
        B) The paper itself (fibers and sizing) is able to bend instead of
                breaking where folded.  This not only allows for "soft creases"
     but
                it also keeps the paper from weakening at the folds.

Sorry Nick, without any special scientific instruments needed, all you need to
make those observations is some time folding with dry and wet paper!  Check the
origami-l archives for wet folding messages.  You'll see from WAY back that
some people suggest "dunking" finished models, but admit that the results are
not very satisfactory!  If the paper did indeed not break, then you would
expect to find that not true!

-D'gou

--
end
<a href="http://www.pgh.net/~dwp">Doug's Fun Page</a>





From: Carlos Alberto Furuti <furuti@AHAND.UNICAMP.BR>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:55:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Pierrot

Expanding on my previous comment about Nishikawa-san's model:
1) the model is actually called a "pierrot" in TNO. Diagrams in that book
include a) basic face and b) frilled collar + hair---yes, Kim, I think
it's hair :-). You can see the result in OUSA's homepage.
2) exactly the same model is diagrammed in OUSA'92, but called "clown"
(of course diagrams are different, but steps are completely similar).
Diagrams comprise a) basic face, b) the frill like above, c) hair +
conic (actually triangular) hat. Note that you can assemble either
a+b or a+c, not a+b+c.

I have no idea why the same model was called two ways (maybe two
different translations from Nishikawa-san's original name?), but
IMHO the result (either a+b or a+c) looks more like a circus clown---
or Bozo[(c)? (R)? TM?], as Kim wrote---than a pantomime pierrot with
cross-painted eyes.

Good news are, probably Patricia got the model right :)

        Sincerely,
                Carlos
        furuti@ahand.unicamp.br www.ahand.unicamp.br/~furuti
