




Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:32:13 -0500
From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Subject: Re: Business Card Letter Fold

Daddy-o D'gou wrote:

> I think you should include the name of the creator of the models,

I hadn't thought of that but I will do it. Good idea.

===========

> Aside from that, I suppose any
> other info would depend on what kind of gift these are going to be...

As most of you know the year 2000 (Y2K) is a big deal in computers. Y2K is
the year of the dragon. My wife works on a team that's addressing the Y2K,
her team is called the Dragon Team. Her boss has commissioned me to make
the dragons as "motivational" gifts for the team.

===========

Thanks, Jeff Kerwood
jkerwood@usaor.net





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:45:41 -0500 (EST)
From: DLister891 <DLister891@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: St. David's Day [NO].

As a Vice-President of the British Origami SocietyI feel I have an obligation
to reply to Jane Rosemarin's query about Saint David, not only on behalf of
myself, but also for all the other Davids in the BOS including David Brill
(Chairman), David Petty (Secretary), David Mitchell (Editor), David Cohen
(Council Member) David Venables (diagrammer of distinction) and a multitude of
other Davids stretching out to where the sun sets on the far western horizon
(in Wales, of course).

Actually, I think that Carol Martinson has answered most of Jane's
questions.There's not a lot more to say about him really, except that he went
on pilgrimmage to Jerusalem, which was no mean feat in the middle of the dark
ages. In Welsh, his name was Dewi or Dafydd (Taffy was a Welshman). Apparently
his cult as a saint, while it was approved by the papacy in 1120, was not
celebrated very much in the wider church outside Wales.. He does not, for
instance,appear in the famous mediaeval book of saints, The Golden Legend by
Jacob de Voragine.

The leek is still the official symbol of Wales, but the daffodil is often
substituted for in, even in Wales and the rest of Great Britain. The daffodil
is given status as an honorary leak for this purpose, becuse some people
consider it to be more attractive as a decorative feature. Anyway, it has a
better scent. The leak or daffodil  is one of the royal badges for Wales and
the daffodil often appears in conjunction with the Tudor Rose (a combination
of the red and white roses) (for England), the Thistle (for Scotland) and the
Shamrock (for Ireland), often entwined together.

There is no evidence that the leak became the symbol of St. David and of Wales
because David told the Welsh to wear leaks in their helmets.One report I have
found is that  the battle at which the Welsh wore leeks to distinguish
themselves from the Saxons was that at which the Welsh king Cadwallader scored
a victory over the Saxons (the English) in 640 AD.. Since David is variously
said to have died in 601 or 589, it could not have been David who suggested
that the Welsh should wear leeks. The true origin of the custom is lost.
Shakespeare described it as "an ancient tradition begun upon an honourable
request", but he was a poet, not a historian. And yes, the Welsh regiments
including the Welsh Guards wear leaks on parade on St. David's day. I am sure
that the report that new recruits to the Welsh regiments have to prove their
loyalty and fortitude by eating raw leaks is entirely true.

An interesting point is that Wales is the only country of the British Isles to
have one of its own natives as its patron saint. St. Patrick of Ireland was a
Briton, of the same Celtic race as St. David. St. Andrew was one of Jesus'
apostles who had no conection whatsoever with Scotland. St. George appears to
have been martyred at Lydda in Palestine and never came anywhere near England,
which, anyway, didn't exist in the 3rd Century AD, when he lived. He is
reputed to have been a soldier, but nothing certain is known about him and the
story of his slaying the Dragon is obviously a later accretion to his  legend.
St. George did not beome the patron saint of England until the middle of the
13th Century, very robably as a direct result of developments connected with
the Crusades.Before that, England favoured various saints, including the Saxon
kings, Edmund and Edward the Confessor.

Finally, a leak is not an onion, even though it is a member of the onion
family. There is such thing as a Welsh Onion, but that is a true onion, not a
leak. It is said that in this context the name is derived from the German word
"welsche", meaning "foreign". It is obviously derived from the same root as
the English word "Welsh", which also means "foreign". The Welsh Onion is not a
native of Wales, nor is it  grown extensvely there. The wild leek, a native of
the Mediterranean and Canaries, Azores and Madeira, may possibly be a true
native of Wales. The modern garden leak, however, is considered to be a
distict species which is not known in the wild. Where it came from is
anybody's guess, but it is unlikely to have been Wales.

We must offer our grateful thanks to Tony O'Hare for justifying this diversion
by designing a paperfolded leek!

David lister.

Grimsby, England.

DLister891@AOL.com.





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:51:40 -0500
From: Marc Kirschenbaum <contract@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: origami enthusiast survey

At 07:16 AM 2/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>     1) Who or What got you interested in learning origami?
I liked making paper crafts, and sometimes I employed cutting and gluing,
and sometimes I did not. The latter efforts resembled origami.

>     2) Was it a solitary pursuit or a collaaborative effort?
For my first book, I asked my father for help. I mostly did it on my own
though.

>     3) Do you do it as a hobby?
Mostly as a hobby.

>     4) Did you learn it as a child?
I started young (at age three)

>     5) What models do you remember from childhood and are they commonly
>found basic origami books?
People had taught me paper airplanes, the flapping bird and the waterbomb.
I found these traditional models in books years later.

>     6) Do you teach it to groups formally or informally?
I have taught both formal and informal groups.

>     7) Are you a professional who makes a living from origami books,
>workshops etc.?
I have done some commercial work, but I am a VERY long way from quitting my
day job.

>     8) Have you done family oriented workshops?
I have taught some families, but the workshops were not necessarially
geared towards attracting families

>     9) Do you think origami could become as popular in America as it has
>become in Japan or do you think
>most Americans are too impatient?
As an impatient American (and a NYC'r to boot), I just fold as quickly as I
can. I was always under the impression that origami is more popular outside
of Japan.

>    10) I think it could be a good family activity if young parents could be
>turned on to the fun, educational
>and cultural benefits-What do you think?
My biased opinion is yes. If a child has no interest, I would never
consider pushing it. There are plenty of other good family activities out
there.

Marc





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:01:41 -0500
From: Jeff Kerwood <jkerwood@USAOR.NET>
Subject: Re: Business Card Letter Fold

Kenny wrote:

> > Jeff Kerwood wrote:
> > I want to present a business card along with an informational note. My
> > thought, use a letter fold for the informational note. The letter fold
> > would included some corner pockets on it's outside face to
> > hold / display the business card.

> How soon did you need it?
10 days or so

> Do you want the combination to stand up?
Doesn't matter

> Fold flat? Fit into an envelope?
Does not need to fit in an envelope

> What size would you prefer the finished package?
Not particular, but smallish (4"x 5" range)

> Umm ... why note + business card, instead of note
> on letterhead?
I'm not using letterhead

> What size/shape is the note? Assuming 8-1/2"x11".
> How much of the 8-1/2"x11" did you want to be visible?
> Can you print on both sides? Upside down, too?
> Does it matter if the printed note is centered?
> Visible? Behind a fold?
This is a free form kind of thing so none of this really matters except
that I'd like to have as much as the business card visible from the
outside as possible. Otherwise nothing else matters. I can print 2 sided
(I'm not sure what upside down printing is, so ?).

> Do you want the raw edges of the paper folded away
> to prevent paper cuts and strengthen the piece?
> Or are you planning on using fancy-edged paper,
> and want the edge to show?
I am not planning to use fancy-edged paper

> What size is the business card?
Standard American - 2" x 3.5"

> And what is the shape of the information on the card?
I haven't designed the card yet so I'll go with whatever you come up with.

> Does the business card have anything on it's back?
Nope

> What is the width of the border of the business card?
> Or how large a triangular corner of the business card
> can be covered, without covering information?
> I.e. does it have to be held in place by pockets
> at the corners, or can it be held by a slot along
> an edge?
My business card has a 3/16th" boarder on all four sides text starts at
3/8th inch from edge. Either slots or pockets are fine.

> How secure does the business card have to be?
> E.g. four corner pockets, two opposite corners,
> one upper corner and let friction hold it in place,
> one bottom corner and let friction and gravity
> hold it, one corner pocket and bend the card
> to lock it in place?
I would say the minimum is two opposite corners.

> Does it matter whether the card sticks out?
Aesthetics dictate here. I can't picture it looking good with it sticking
out, but ???

> Come to think of it, do you want the business
> card to be removable?
Removable would be good.

> Do the pieces have to be the same?
I'm not sure what you are asking here.

=============

Thank you for your interest, Jeff Kerwood
jkerwood@usaor.net





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:23:45 -0800
From: John Sutter <sutterj@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: origami survey

To Ariel and other members,

Thank you for responding to my survey about what interested people about
learning origami.  You made a
good point about origami appealing more to the more highly educated,
intellectually gifted, and more
mathematically oriented segments of our society in the U.S.A.  I do not
belong to that elite group and
it was probably wishful thinking on my part that it could become popular
with young families in the U.S.

TV takes up far too many hours of the day in many homes.  I find TV boring
for the most part and I don't
tolerate the commercials very well anymore.  I'd much rather do origami or
participate in a discussion
about it via e mail than vege out with TV.  TV is OK when I'm sick or too
tired to think.  It can even
be like a sedative.

Another member pointed out the lack of cultural and historic significance of
origami to people in the U.S.
as being even more of an issue than people's impatience or frustration with
origami diagrams and directions.
As a substitute teacher I have confronted these obstacles to learning
origami and learned by experience
what models work and what ways I can use to adapt my lessons to overcome the
obstacles.  My enthusiasm
and patience usually pays off and the kids and adults I've worked with are
usually pleased with what they
learn to make out of a piece of paper.  I get enjoyment out of sharing my
hobby and if that generates more
origami enthusiasts, then I guess that's good enough for me.  Whether my
family workshops succeed enough
for my own little research project or they don't, I've enjoyed all of your
comments and ideas and liked
being able to share mine with you.

While we've been sending messages about the survey, I' ve noticed that the
more expert, advanced origami
devotees were communicating about a complex model of an orchid or copyright
issues.  The orchid sounds
like a real challenge and probably more interesting than my survey, but the
survey generated more than
I expected in some very long and interesting answers for me.  That was great!

Regards,
Ria Sutter

P.s. Perhaps I didn't express my self properly, or you just misundestood my
comments, but I am aware of the
origami groups in Europe, and elsewhere, but chose to focus on the groups I
mentioned, also I used the term
Anglicans improperly and confused things even more.  I can take some
correction without taking it so
personally.





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:30:40 -0500
From: "Sonia Wu (NC)" <swu@VIRTU.SAR.USF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ria Sutter's Enthusiast Survey
Comments: To: Origami Mailing List <Origami@MIT.EDU>

1)  I work at college where one of the bio profs is very involved in the
local hands-on science center for kids.  She suggested that with my
background in art that I could do an origami "Saturday Happening" (weekly
morning program that combines a science thing with a project thing).
Unfortunately, I knew no origami at the time, and so taught myself from
Honda's World of Origami (even though I didn't do an actual "Happening"
until 5 years later).

2)  Learned it on my own, and rarely fold with others since I don't
really know anyone who folds. Didn't even realize there was such a thing
as a convention till a few years ago when I met a student here who'd been
to one.  Am considering starting up a club on campus.

3)  Hobby!  My other LIFE outside of work!  Got about 90 books so far, and
lusting after more (roughly 12 on order at the moment from 2 different
sources, as well as a video from a third).  When I'm too tired to fold, I
like just looking at the diagrams.  And I cart a few around with me,
usually.  Mind you, not nearly as obsessed as most on the list, probably.

4)  Learned no origami as a kid unless you count one very basic type of
paper airplane.  Had heard of origami but couldn't even fold those
cootie-catcher things kids used on the playground.  Always thought it
would be too hard.  My dad, who's from China, says that as a kid he used
to fold the waterbomb and put a fly in it to hear the magnified buzzing
sound.  He didn't pass that down, though.

5)  Remember SEEING not just cootie-catchers but gum-wrapper chains and
several kinds of airplane.  Remember seeing pictures of the boat/pirate
hat from that Curious George book.  Not as a kid, but when I had a summer
job as a college student at a newspaper, we learned how to make printer's
caps from someone who used to work back in the presses when they used
them.

6)  Have taught to kid/parent groups about 3 times at the science center
(Biddle penguins, Kasahara peacocks, and Yoshizawa butterflies).  On 3/21
we're going to do traditional frogs.

7)  Strictly amateur.  And only one original design so far (which has
probably been done already anyway, though I've submitted a diagram to
OUSA in case it hasn't).

8)  The groups I teach are usually kid/parent but oriented really to the
kids.  Usually everyone folds, though.  Sometimes the kids do it better.
Sometimes the parents try to do it for the kids.  But most of them have a
good time and see that they can all do it themselves with a little
practice.

9)  Probably origami couldn't be as popular in America, but I've only read
about how popular it is in Japan.  Sometimes I think it's easier to
popularize things in the States if competition is involved (with
corporate sponsors, team colors and victory dances.

10)  A good family activity?  I would think so.  It's an inexpensive hobby
(well, it COULD be, I guess) that can be done with pretty much any number
of people (not like a board game that usually requires at least 3 people
to play). Having an actual product of the activity is pretty neat, too.
On a related note, it's not hard to get other people to look at your
drawing or sculpture when you're an art major but if you just finished
writing a 20-page term paper on the Treaty of Versailles people are more
likely to say, "Oh poor baby," than they are to ask to read it.  Plus,
back to the topic, the oldest person in the family will not necessarily be
the best at folding, especially if the younger ones have more time to fold
individually while the adult(s) work. This can teach the value of
practicing in order to improve.  Believe me, if you're the youngest in a
family of five, you get REALLY tired of not being as (good, fast, smart,
whatever) as your siblings and parents.  If I could have "beat" my
brothers at origami just by practicing, you can bet I'd be spiking the
crane in the end zone.  Oh. . . .

Sonia Wu
(Florida)





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:14:02 -0500
From: "Daniel J. Byrne & Candice Bradley" <djbyrne@POP.ATHENET.NET>
Subject: Re: origami enthusiast survey

I am enjoying reading the responses to this questionnaire so I'm sending my own
along.

>      1) Who or What got you interested in learning origami?

I flew British Air to London and then Zimbabwe in December 1996.  My children
were given activity sets on each leg of the trip.  These included little
packages of origami paper and instructions for a Sonobe cube.   My son John (now
14) and I folded it all, and when we got to Zimbabwe we were hooked.  I found
some books in Zimbabwe, cut our own paper, and ordered some materials from
Fascinating Folds.   I have done origami nearly every day since.  John does it
less often, but he's hooked too.  He's folding 1000 cranes.

>      2) Was it a solitary pursuit or a collaaborative effort?

see # 1

>      3) Do you do it as a hobby?

only as a hobby

>      4) Did you learn it as a child?

I was taught some origami as a child.  I remember trying to fold a crane in
Brownies, and failing miserably.   Girls my age folded a lot of gum wrapper
chains and cootie catchers, hats, boats and airplanes.    Simple origami was an
ongoing feature of my childhood.

>      5) What models do you remember from childhood and are they commonly
> found basic origami books?

See # 4.

>      6) Do you teach it to groups formally or informally?

I don't teach origami.  I teach anthropology.

>     7) Are you a professional who makes a living from origami books,
> workshops etc.? I recognize some names like Joseph Wu in this category and I
> hope they will respond.

No, and I don't think I ever will.   I do use origami metaphors when I teach
anthropology, though!

>      8) Have you done family oriented workshops?

No.   But I turn people on to origami every chance I get.

>   9) Do you think origami could become as popular in America as it has
> become in Japan or do you think most Americans are too impatient?  ( I find
> many kids and adults don't have long enough attention spans to go beyond basic
> origami)

I know lots of students and faculty who fold.   Some folks on this campus (a
very small campus) fold seriously.   We had a physics student who was notorious
for his complex models.

It must be a very popular activity because even in this relatively small city
(about 65,000) we have several stores that stock (and vigorously sell) a wide
range of origami paper, and bookstores that carry the more popular books
published in the U.S.

I have not met anyone here in Appleton who *doesn't* know what origami is.   I
certainly don't think N. Americans are too impatient.   Where I live there is a
lot of interest in "crafts."  Historically, this is a paper manufacturing
region, but I think that interest here in origami is not influenced by paper
manufacturing.  People like to work with their hands.  It can get pretty cold up
here, and folks need something to do during the long winter.  I also think that
"working with hands" is a *typical* characteristic of N. American culture.
Folks knit and crochet, embroider, quilt, bead, bake, garden, and, increasingly,
they fold paper.   All these hands-on activities require patience.

> 10) I think it could be a good family activity if young parents could be
> turned on to the fun, educational and cultural benefits-What do you think?

Obviously!    Anything you do together as a family is great (as long as it's
legal!).

Candice
--
             Candice Bradley and Daniel J. Byrne
                John, Mark and Camille Byrne
                     Appleton, Wisconsin
                 email:  djbyrne@athenet.net
                 candice.bradley@lawrence.edu
             http://www.lawrence.edu/~bradleyc/





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:38:40 -0800
From: mSaliers <saliers@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: (NO): Links from Joseph Wu's Web page

>
> This one I'll change right now. As for "bringing back the HTML", what do you
> think I'm using to write this stuff? Granted, I use Javascript, but my code
> is written so that browsers that can't handle it should be able to just
> ignore it.
>

Well, apparently some browsers degrade a little less gracefully than
others.  Whatever you did, thanks!  Its good to be able to see
for myself again the page I always recommend first to anyone seeking
Origami info or inspiration.  You're definitely the Ace Rimmer
(let him that readeth understand) of Origamidom.

Mark





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:27:00 -0600
From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@MTAYR.HEARTLAND.NET>
Subject: Re: Mr Smiley Face

Yes Jeremy published it the BARF newsletter.  Back Issues are Available.

check his web site at

www.krmusic.com/barfup/barf.htm

Paper, scissors, stone.....
Origami, Kirigami, bludgeon....
pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net

A couple of years ago I went to my first OUSA conention. One of the big
highlights I really enjoyed was Jeremy Shafer's (I think) presentation
of Mr Smiley Face. Are diagrams/directions for MR SF currently available
somewhere or in the process of being made?





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:47:12 -0500
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: (NO): Links from Joseph Wu's Web page

I sent my message about the above subject to the origami-list
and not directly/privately to Joseph Wu for the following
reasons:

1. The original post about problems with the links was sent
to the origami-list.

2. The original post contained a rather vague description of
the problem and the error messages given by the browser, leading
me, and possibly others, to infer that the writer was experiencing
what is usually called a "bad link" problem with multiple if not
all of the links on Joseph Wu's origami web page.

3. In the problems I had, using two different browsers (admittedly
not the latest or most up-to-date), I could see that one of them
gave un-informative error messages that might lead the user to
conclude that the links were bad. This is *NOT* the case, and
the other browser's more accurate error message revealed that.

I therefore thought it possible that this information would be
of interest to both the original post author and those who responded to
that post. To repeat: The *LINKS* are fine; the problem is that
some browsers or versions of browsers can't handle the CGI
program that Joseph Wu has begun using to process the links on
his pages. The results of these browsers inability to cope with
the CGI programming can be rather dramatic.

4. While recognizing that the pages are not public property and
are maintained for the owner's private amusement, I and apparently
many other origami enthusiasts have come to regard them as a
public service of considerable magnitude (a sort of "origami nation
home page"), and as the definitive "origami yellow pages."
Finding suddenly that I could no longer use them with my regular
Web browsing software was an acute disappointment to me.

Joseph, I have always had, and continue to have nothing but the
most profound admiration of and respect for you and your integrity
as an artist and designer; and gratitude for the service you have
provided and continue to provide to the origami community through
your web pages and efforts to relocate the mail list and manage it.

None of this has **ever** been an issue to me in the discussions
of the relocation of the mail list. However, I and others - including
some who chose not to enter the public discussion on the list -
thought at the time that there were some serious philosophical issues
appropriate to a public discussion among reasonable adults, an
atmosphere that this mailing list has been notable for throughout
its existence.

Valerie Vann





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:06:48 -0500
From: DON CONNELL <orig@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Mr Smiley Face
Comments: To: origami@MIT.EDU

A couple of years ago I went to my first OUSA conention. One of the big
highlights I really enjoyed was Jeremy Shafer's (I think) presentation
of Mr Smiley Face. Are diagrams/directions for MR SF currently available
somewhere or in the process of being made?

Don Connell





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:43:06 -0500
From: "Jerry D. Harris" <102354.2222@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: origami enthusiast survey

>>1) Who or What got you interested in learning origami?<<

        My father did -- he had learned it as a child himself, in the late
1930's (where he learned it from is a mystery...his family emigrated from
eastern Europe just before the Nazis came to power, and I doubt they were
exposed to it there.  Anyway, when I was young, I remember he had a copy of
Honda's original origami book, a hardcover with a cardboard case, with
samples of the actual models glued to special pages inside, as well as
other books, like Kasahara's _Creative Origami_.  I used to drag out the
books and a ratty old paper bag of some very thin, brittle origami paper,
and ask him to make things from the books.  I didn't seriously try any of
it myself until I was in high school.

>>2) Was it a solitary pursuit or a collaaborative effort?<<

        Solitary, mostly, when I got into doing it myself...my dad had lost
interest, although he did help me interpret some of the diagrams,
initially.  By the time I was folding John Montroll's and Patricia
Crawford's models, which he'd never been able to figure out, he quit
helping.  ;-D

>>3) Do you do it as a hobby?<<

        Yes, although I have made a few models as gifts, and sold some
origami earrings in the past.  Never a major portion of my income.

>>4) Did you learn it as a child?<<

        I learned what it _was_ when I was a kid, but I didn't learn _how_
to do it until high school.

>>5) What models do you remember from childhood and are they commonly
found basic origami books?<<

        Well, I already mentioned Honda's and Kasahara's books; Harbin's
_Origami_, _New Adventures in Origami_, _Paper Magic_, and _Origami
Step-by-Step_ were also there.  SOme later additions were Kasahara and
Gray's _Magic of Origami_ (is that the right title?), Kenneway's
_Paperfolding for Fun_, and then Montroll's _Origami for the Enthusiast_.
I spent a _lot_ of time with that one!

>>6) Do you teach it to groups formally or informally?<<

        I've done both:  taught to local origami groups, individuals, as
demoonstrations for fairs, schools, and to organizations such as Rotary.
Rarely do I do it for money, though that's mostly because a lot of the
groups I've done it for can't afford to pay, and I enjoy doing it for the
educational value.

>>7) Are you a professional who makes a living from origami books,
workshops etc.? I recognize some names
like Joseph Wu in this category and I hope they will respond.<<

        No I don't, and I don't know that the market is large enough for
there to be a lot of people who could say "yes" to this question!  8-O
However, I do occasionally contemplate the possibility of _supplementing_
my income selling well-sculpted models and/or earrings...it's a question of
finding the time to make a stock!

>>8) Have you done family oriented workshops?<<

        You mean, have I done origami in such a way intended to nucleate
families around a common project?  Some of the fairs I've done might
qualify, although they weren't set up specifically for that purpose.

>>9) Do you think origami could become as popular in America as it has
become in Japan or do you think
most Americans are too impatient?  ( I find many kids and adults don't have
long enough attention spans to
go beyond basic origami)<<

        I don't know that it's so much a question of patience as it is of
interest.  Oddly, I've known people who were into doing cross-stitching
projects of such intricacy that it takes them over a year to complete, yet
they tell me they don't have the patience for spending a 1/2 hour to make a
complex origami model.  I find that to be patently absurd, so I think it's
more that they're not interested enough.  Possibly, they're not patient
enough to take the time to learn the jargon and how to read the diagrams
and do the folds...but I could also say I'm not patient enough to learn how
to cross-stitch, though the truth is that it really just doesn't interest
me!

>>10) I think it could be a good family activity if young parents could be
turned on to the fun, educational
and cultural benefits-What do you think?<<

        I agree, but whereas kids take to learning origami pretty readily
(they're so much more open to new things than most adults!), it would take
some special parents to devote that kind of time to the activity.

        Hope this helps!

                _,_
           ____/_\,)                    ..  _
--____-===(  _\/                         \\/ \-----_---__
           /\  '                        ^__/>/\____\--------
__________/__\_ ____________________________.//__.//_________

Jerry D. Harris                         (505) 841-2865
Fossil Preparation Lab
New Mexico Museum of Natural History
1801 Mountain Rd NW
Albuquerque  NM  87104-1375             102354.2222@compuserve.com





Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:54:52 -0500
From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@FANTASYFARM.COM>
Subject: Re: (NO): Links from Joseph Wu's Web page
Priority: normal

On 26 Feb 98 at 22:47, Valerie Vann wrote:

I hesitate to enter this (NO) thread, and I have to confess that I"ve
mostly been ignoring it so I may have missed something important, but:

> ... I therefore thought it possible that this information would be
> of interest to both the original post author and those who responded to
> that post. To repeat: The *LINKS* are fine; the problem is that
> some browsers or versions of browsers can't handle the CGI
> program that Joseph Wu has begun using to process the links on
> his pages. The results of these browsers inability to cope with
> the CGI programming can be rather dramatic.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.  CGI programs are run on the
*SERVER*.  There is _NO_ way for a browser to know whether a particular
URL is handled by a plain file or by a CGI --- that distinction is
-entirely- within the server.  And so I'm left with no clue what actual
problem you're talking about here..  The CGI programs could be spitting
out HTML that various browsers doesn't like [lord only knows that that's a
common enough trouble for web designers], but even static HTML pages can
[and do] have that problem and there's nothing particularly CGI-related
about that sort of trouble.

Maybe we need to spawn an origami-internet-l sub-list... :o)

  /Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:59 -0500
From: "Nancy B. McNitt" <nbm@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: origami and family traditions

The Origami hat/har.boat model can be found in the book, "Curous George
Rides a Bike". It is in the center of the book. This is the first model I
learned. It was tought to me by my mother who I am sure never heard of
Origami. This was during WW2 and she was of German descent. I have no idea
where she learned it.

Glenn Mcnitt

At 10:30 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>To Ria Sutter:
>Paper folding is not a tradition in my family, but as a child I was taught by
>my ?father to fold a sailboat from a rectangle of paper. It had several steps
>to it, but the first folds formed a sort of sailboat/party pirate hat. When
>it was further developed, it turned into a compact floatable ship.
>It's interesting (to me, at least) that in the 2 years that I've been folding
>I've never seen this model anywhere.
>Lucille Dan





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:44:16 -0600
From: April Ammons <azureus@PROBE.NET>
Subject: Re: origami enthusiast survey
Greetings!

My name is April Ammons. I've been a member of this list for about nine
months now,
but I've never posted to it before.  I thought that I would respond to this
survey
as a way of introducing myself.

>     1) Who or What got you interested in learning origami?
>     2) Was it a solitary pursuit or a collaaborative effort?
>     3) Do you do it as a hobby?
>     4) Did you learn it as a child?
>     5) What models do you remember from childhood and are they commonly
>found basic origami books?

A friend of my father's would always make paper airplanes and water bombs
for my
brother and I when we were little.  I learned the pirate hat/boat, the
fortune teller,
and a couple letterfolds from my elementary school classmates (usually
taught when we
were supposed to be paying attention to the teacher.)  I didn't know that
it was
"origami" until high school, when an English teacher told us the story of
Sadako and
taught us how to make cranes and other traditional folds.  It became my
goal to make
the thousand cranes, and I folded them out of every kind of paper
imaginable, including
the foil from a Hershey's Kiss.  But mostly I folded the cranes from
wrapping paper off
of gifts given to me over the years.  Unfortunately, they were all
destroyed during the
summer of '93, when we had the big flood here in midwestern USA.

>     6) Do you teach it to groups formally or informally?

My interest in origami was rekindled last year when we got an origami book
on approval at
the library where I was working.  I folded all of the models in the book,
and that led
to me later teaching the simple folds that I remembered to children at the
library.  I was
also inspired to search for origami on the Web, which led me to the pages
of Joseph Wu and
Valerie Vann, and then to this list.  Thanks!

>     7) Are you a professional who makes a living from origami books,
>workshops etc.?

I am definitely an amateur, with intermediate abilities--I've gotten good at
folding moldels by John Montroll, but I'm not up to folding most models by,
say, Robert Lang--although that's a definite goal.

>    10) I think it could be a good family activity if young parents could be
>turned on to the fun, educational
>and cultural benefits-What do you think?

Maybe--If we could get Barney the Dinosaur to start teaching origami.

April Ammons
P.S.--I have just moved to the middle of nowhere, ie--just north of
Sioux Falls, South Dakota in the USA.  If there are any folders nearby,
I'm interested in getting together for a "folding party".





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:36:32 -0800
From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Subject: Re: (NO): Links from Joseph Wu's Web page

>Well, apparently some browsers degrade a little less gracefully than
>others.  Whatever you did, thanks!  Its good to be able to see
>for myself again the page I always recommend first to anyone seeking
>Origami info or inspiration.  You're definitely the Ace Rimmer
>(let him that readeth understand) of Origamidom.

I'm beginning to suspect that problems with the front page is really a
memory problem. What I did, in effect, was the to reduce the number of
images that need to be loaded for the front page by taking out all of the
"roll-over" images. However, the roll-over code is still there (and
operates in the menu bar), so I think it's really just a memory savings
that is happening. Whatever. As for "Ace Rimmer", I've always liked Lister
better myself. 8)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105     f: 604.732.7331     e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:41:36 -0800
From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Subject: Re: (NO): Links from Joseph Wu's Web page

>This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.  CGI programs are run on the
>*SERVER*.  There is _NO_ way for a browser to know whether a particular
>URL is handled by a plain file or by a CGI --- that distinction is
>-entirely- within the server.  And so I'm left with no clue what actual
>problem you're talking about here..  The CGI programs could be spitting
>out HTML that various browsers doesn't like [lord only knows that that's a
>common enough trouble for web designers], but even static HTML pages can
>[and do] have that problem and there's nothing particularly CGI-related
>about that sort of trouble.

Yup. You're absolutely right. What the AOL and the Compuserve browsers seem
redirect the browser to a different page. CGI is not a problem because the
entire Links list exists only as a CGI script that pulls entries out of a
database and formats them into HTML. It seems really stupid that these
browsers cannot handle this header since it is a standard feature of
HTTP/1.0, but I'll skip the standard comments about AOL and Compuserve.

>Maybe we need to spawn an origami-internet-l sub-list... :o)

Maybe... Should I ask MIT if they're willing to host it?  8)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105     f: 604.732.7331     e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:02:31 -0500
From: ktomlinson@PLATINUM.COM
Subject: Test Message - Please Delete
Comments: To: origami@MIT.EDU

Sorry for the test message should it get through. Since the change-over, I
have been unable to post.  One final try!

Kristine Tomlinson
ktomlinson@platinum.com





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:02:35 -0400
From: Lisa Hodsdon <Lisa_Hodsdon@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: origami enthusiast survey

April Ammons said:
>Maybe--If we could get Barney the Dinosaur to start teaching origami.

NOOOO!!!!!
Actually I'm serious that it's a bad idea because of the
"Barney backlash." Lots of kids when they get too old
for Barney react by saying that everything that Barney
does is too childish for them to do. It would be awful if
origami got this reaction.

Lisa
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:09:19 -0800
From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Subject: [NO Admin] Be nice to your administrator
Comments: To: origami@MIT.EDU

I've been getting a lot of errors from people who have full mailboxes. What
most systems do when a mailbox is full is that they automatically return
the mail to the sender. That means that I'm getting multiple copies of list
mail with error messages attached because some people aren't clearing out
their mailboxes. This often happens when people are away from their email
for a long time (gone on a trip, perhaps?). So, please, keep your mailboxes
clear, and if you're going away, set yourself to NOMAIL (this was called
POSTPONE on the previous system) until you return. You can do this by
sending this command to <listserv@mit.edu>:

set origami nomail

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105     f: 604.732.7331     e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:17:00 -0500
From: Norman Budnitz <nbudnitz@DUKE.EDU>
Subject: origami enthusiast survey
Comments: To: origami@MIT.EDU

>     1) Who or What got you interested in learning origami?

Back when I was teaching middle/high school math, I went to a conference
run by the North Carolina Council of Teachers of Mathematics.  One of the
workshops was something like "Paper folding and geometry."  It turned out
to be a workshop dedicated to using origami in the classroom.  We made some
Xmas decorations from "Magic of Origami" by Gray and Kasahara.  As a child,
I had always loved making models from kits--cars, planes, etc.  This
origami seemed like model-building for grown-ups!  I was hooked.

>     2) Was it a solitary pursuit or a collaaborative effort?

Solitary.  I joined OUSA (FOCA in those days) and bought books from their
catalog and taught myself.  It was a slow process, but lots of fun.  I
didn't go to conventions, and I didn't know about any other local folders
in my area.  Once I felt reasonably proficient, I began to use origami in
my teaching, eventually teaching classes in origami in both middle and high
school.  Eventually, some other local folders got wind of me, and together
we formed Triangle Origami Folders United (TOFU).  I began going to OUSA
conventions.  I met Jonathan Baxter and helped run the Southeastern Origami
Festival in 1996.

>     3) Do you do it as a hobby?

Yes, certainly.

>     4) Did you learn it as a child?

I folded paper boats and "cootie" catchers/fortune tellers.  I made my
first crane sometime after the workshop mentioned above.

>     6) Do you teach it to groups formally or informally?

I have done both.

>     7) Are you a professional who makes a living from origami books,
>workshops etc.?

No.

>     8) Have you done family oriented workshops?

No.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Budnitz          919-684-3592 (day)
nbudnitz@duke.edu               919-383-0553 (eve)

Dept of Zoology, Duke Univ, Box 90325, Durham NC 27708 (work)
4115 Garrett Drive, Durham NC 27705 (home)

PROGRESS: the victory of laughter over dogma.
(Tom Robbins, Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas)





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:27:13 -0800
From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Subject: Re: (NO): Links from Joseph Wu's Web page; List Administration;
 Diatribe (long)

At 22:47 -0500 1998/2/26, Valerie Vann wrote:
>3. In the problems I had, using two different browsers (admittedly
>not the latest or most up-to-date), I could see that one of them
>gave un-informative error messages that might lead the user to
>conclude that the links were bad. This is *NOT* the case, and
>the other browser's more accurate error message revealed that.
>
>I therefore thought it possible that this information would be
>of interest to both the original post author and those who responded to
>that post. To repeat: The *LINKS* are fine; the problem is that
>some browsers or versions of browsers can't handle the CGI
>program that Joseph Wu has begun using to process the links on
>his pages. The results of these browsers inability to cope with
>the CGI programming can be rather dramatic.

As I've pointed out to Bernie, the other browser's message is not "more
accurate" in actual fact. It is certainly more detailed, but the fact is
that the problem does not reside in the CGI but in the browser's inability
to fully comply with the HTTP/1.0 standard.

>4. While recognizing that the pages are not public property and
>are maintained for the owner's private amusement, I and apparently
>many other origami enthusiasts have come to regard them as a
>public service of considerable magnitude (a sort of "origami nation
>home page"), and as the definitive "origami yellow pages."
>Finding suddenly that I could no longer use them with my regular
>Web browsing software was an acute disappointment to me.

This is a valid point. If, as you say, there is a "public service" aspect
to  my site (and that is certainly what I had intended all along), I would
appreciate it if people would give back to the site sometimes. Report
errors (like you have done, Valerie, and I appreciate it!), notify me of
new links to add, maybe write an article or two?

This argument is the best one put forth so far for me to remove the
redirection CGI script. Granted, the problem is not with my script but with
the AOL and Compu$erve browsers, but a site is no good if it is useless.
I'll remove the redirection script today.

>Joseph, I have always had, and continue to have nothing but the
>most profound admiration of and respect for you and your integrity
>as an artist and designer; and gratitude for the service you have
>provided and continue to provide to the origami community through
>your web pages and efforts to relocate the mail list and manage it.

Thank you, and likewise. 8)

>None of this has **ever** been an issue to me in the discussions
>of the relocation of the mail list. However, I and others - including
>some who chose not to enter the public discussion on the list -
>thought at the time that there were some serious philosophical issues
>appropriate to a public discussion among reasonable adults, an
>atmosphere that this mailing list has been notable for throughout
>its existence.

That is true. I have withheld many comments in light of the need for
discussion. I would like to point out now that many of the comments made
during that discussion were highly offensive to me because they were direct
attacks on my character. I realise that that was not the intention, but
that is what was being said (perhaps just due to carelessness?). Remarks
like "I'm sure that Joseph's not like that, but what if...?" are ultimately
saying that "Joseph might be like that, so..." I'm not so thin-skinned as
to be too distressed by all of this, especially in light of the ignorance
many people have of such issues, but I feel I have a right to defend
myself. So there it is.

For the record:
1. Maintaining a mailing list is just a lot of work, not a money-making
venture, not a glamourous position, not a prestigious privilege.
2. Neither I nor the company I work for have any intention of using this
list commercially.
3. It doesn't matter where the list is hosted, or by whom, since the
Internet is such a large community and is completely interconnected. If
there's a problem with the host (like what happend to NSTN), it can simply
be moved elsewhere. It is a functioning anarchy. If you don't like
something, you can do something about it.
4. I don't expect to be thanked/praised/sainted/deified for my work on this
list. I do expect to be given the same amount of respect that is due to any
human being.
5. Can we just get on with the origami and stop talking about Internet
stuff? Email me privately if you wish.

At this point, I must apologise to Valerie for using her message as a
springboard into all of this. I do not mean to imply that she is the source
of all of this, or that she's done anything wrong. It is simply that her
message triggered this issue in my own little brain. Thank you, Valerie,
for helping to keep origami alive online.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105     f: 604.732.7331     e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:40:53 +0000
From: Jane Rosemarin <jfrmpls@SPACESTAR.NET>
Subject: Re: origami enthusiast survey

I thought I'd put my paper foot in my paper mouth again and answer Ria
Sutter's Survey so that it will become clear how a child can grow up to
ask impertinent questions about leeks.

>  1) Who or What got you interested in learning origami?
I started when I was 6. My parents got me a book by Florence Sakade,
Origami Book 2, I think, at the Metropolitan Museum in New York.

>     2) Was it a solitary pursuit or a collaaborative effort?
Totally solitary.

>     3) Do you do it as a hobby?
Every day.

>     4) Did you learn it as a child?
Yes. See above.

>     5) What models do you remember from childhood and are they commonly
>found basic origami books?
I folded the models in the Sakade book and the usual school folds (cootie
catcher, chains, hat-boat) for a few years.  I also had some books by
Shari Lewis. I knew an open box, the kimono (which I still love), the
flapping bird, the fox hand puppet, little finger puppets, etc.  Later, I
moved on to Kasahara. In high school, I had a Japanese friend who taught
me some models. I remember learning a wonderful varitation on the
traditional lily from her.

>     6) Do you teach it to groups formally or informally?
Both. I teach at Origami Minnesota a few times a year. I am listed in the
"community resource pool" for a group of suburban school districts. I
also teach at my son's school. All that is formal, I guess. We also share
models informally at OM meetings.

>     7) Are you a professional who makes a living from origami books,
>workshops etc.? I recognize some names
>like Joseph Wu in this category and I hope they will respond.
Well, I have occasionally been paid for my work.  I have also donated
origami jewelry and stationery portfolios to auctions, where they sell
very well. I'm a professional volunteer, so maybe I do make a living from
origami???

>     8) Have you done family oriented workshops?
Not specifically.

>     9) Do you think origami could become as popular in America as it has
>become in Japan or do you think
>most Americans are too impatient?  ( I find many kids and adults don't have
>long enough attention spans to
>go beyond basic origami)
Maybe. I think many Americans are embarrassed by origami, that they don't
know what to make of it. But then, Japanese people often think of it as
something to do when you are a young child, and never again.

>    10) I think it could be a good family activity if young parents could be
>turned on to the fun, educational
>and cultural benefits-What do you think?
Yes.





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:43:07 -0800
From: Joseph Wu <josephwu@ULTRANET.CA>
Subject: Re: (NO): Links from Joseph Wu's Web page; List Administration;
 Diatribe (long)
Comments: To: origami@MIT.EDU

This is a long reply, and contains some rantings and ravings from myself.
If you're not interested, please just skip this message. Also, please note
that this message is in no way an attack on Valerie Vann, but a response to
some issues that are raised by her.

At 22:47 -0500 1998/2/26, Valerie Vann wrote:
>3. In the problems I had, using two different browsers (admittedly
>not the latest or most up-to-date), I could see that one of them
>gave un-informative error messages that might lead the user to
>conclude that the links were bad. This is *NOT* the case, and
>the other browser's more accurate error message revealed that.
>
>I therefore thought it possible that this information would be
>of interest to both the original post author and those who responded to
>that post. To repeat: The *LINKS* are fine; the problem is that
>some browsers or versions of browsers can't handle the CGI
>program that Joseph Wu has begun using to process the links on
>his pages. The results of these browsers inability to cope with
>the CGI programming can be rather dramatic.

As I've pointed out to Bernie, the other browser's message is not "more
accurate" in actual fact. It is certainly more detailed, but the fact is
that the problem does not reside in the CGI but in the browser's inability
to fully comply with the HTTP/1.0 standard.

>4. While recognizing that the pages are not public property and
>are maintained for the owner's private amusement, I and apparently
>many other origami enthusiasts have come to regard them as a
>public service of considerable magnitude (a sort of "origami nation
>home page"), and as the definitive "origami yellow pages."
>Finding suddenly that I could no longer use them with my regular
>Web browsing software was an acute disappointment to me.

This is a valid point. If, as you say, there is a "public service" aspect
to  my site (and that is certainly what I had intended all along), I would
appreciate it if people would give back to the site sometimes. Report
errors (like you have done, Valerie, and I appreciate it!), notify me of
new links to add, maybe write an article or two?

This argument is the best one put forth so far for me to remove the
redirection CGI script. Granted, the problem is not with my script but with
the AOL and Compu$erve browsers, but a site is no good if it is useless.
I'll remove the redirection script today.

>Joseph, I have always had, and continue to have nothing but the
>most profound admiration of and respect for you and your integrity
>as an artist and designer; and gratitude for the service you have
>provided and continue to provide to the origami community through
>your web pages and efforts to relocate the mail list and manage it.

Thank you, and likewise. 8)

>None of this has **ever** been an issue to me in the discussions
>of the relocation of the mail list. However, I and others - including
>some who chose not to enter the public discussion on the list -
>thought at the time that there were some serious philosophical issues
>appropriate to a public discussion among reasonable adults, an
>atmosphere that this mailing list has been notable for throughout
>its existence.

That is true. I have withheld many comments in light of the need for
discussion. I would like to point out now that many of the comments made
during that discussion were highly offensive to me because they were direct
attacks on my character. I realise that that was not the intention, but
that is what was being said (perhaps just due to carelessness?). Remarks
like "I'm sure that Joseph's not like that, but what if...?" are ultimately
saying that "Joseph might be like that, so..." I'm not so thin-skinned as
to be too distressed by all of this, especially in light of the ignorance
many people have of such issues, but I feel I have a right to defend
myself. So there it is.

For the record:
1. Maintaining a mailing list is just a lot of work, not a money-making
venture, not a glamourous position, not a prestigious privilege.
2. Neither I nor the company I work for have any intention of using this
list commercially.
3. It doesn't matter where the list is hosted, or by whom, since the
Internet is such a large community and is completely interconnected. If
there's a problem with the host (like what happend to NSTN), it can simply
be moved elsewhere. It is a functioning anarchy. If you don't like
something, you can do something about it.
4. I don't expect to be thanked/praised/sainted/deified for my work on this
list. I do expect to be given the same amount of respect that is due to any
human being.
5. Can we just get on with the origami and stop talking about Internet
stuff? Email me privately if you wish.

At this point, I must apologise to Valerie for using her message as a
springboard into all of this. I do not mean to imply that she is the source
of all of this, or that she's done anything wrong. It is simply that her
message triggered this issue in my own little brain. Thank you, Valerie,
for helping to keep origami alive online.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wu, Origami Artist and Multimedia Producer
t:604.730.0306 x 105     f: 604.732.7331     e: josephwu@ultranet.ca





Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:57:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenny1414 <Kenny1414@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Test Message - Please Delete

It got thru.

Aloha,
Kenneth M. Kawamura
kenny1414@aol.com
