




Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:44:04 -0300 (ADT)
From: Kristine Tomlinson <ktomlinson@platinum.com>
Subject: New Origami Group in Littleton, MA, USA Next Week

Hi Everyone,

If you're in Massachusetts and interested in meeting some area folders, a
few of us in the "MetroWest" (ugh!) area have been meeting to share
interests, books, folding materials, and good conversation, and we'd like
to meet you!

Our next gathering will be August 26, at 6:30 at the Reuben Hoar Library
in Littleton, MA.  You can get to Littleton from Routes 2, 495, 110, the old
2A, and 116.  It is just two towns west of Concord.

The library is a few short blocks west from the center of town -- the
only set of lights and the junction of Rts. 495/110/116.  Take King
Street/Rt. 110 (or 111? check your map) heading toward Ayer, MA.
Russell Street is a right fork off of King Street just past a small cemetery.
Or, if you stay on King Street, the main entrance is across from Badger
Funeral Home.  We've booked the "Conference Room" on the main floor
near the Reference section.  The library number is 508-486-4046.

Feel free to drop me a line if you would like more information or need
better directions (they don't open until later today, but I should have
better directions soon and I can at least get you to the town center).

Hope to meet you Tuesday the 26th!

Kristine Tomlinson
ktomlinson@platinum.com





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:00:33 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: precreasing..

Daddy-o D'gou <dwp@transarc.com> sez

>Don't be so sure...  I prefer pre-creasing and then collapsing bird
>bases over the "traditional" methods.

I think it depends on the design. Shen folds, for instance, require
extensive precreasing, then a few final "collapsing" folds - he explains
this in the forward to his BOS booklet - highly recommended!

I try to balance ease of folding (ie. adding creases early on) with
having a flowing method, where each step contributes "obviously" to the
result. One thing I *do* find is that careful diagramming improves the
folding method no end - in the search for a clear diagram step, you
often rework the move in lots of ways, discovering the most pleasing.

I suspect pre-creasing appeals more to the seasoned folder, who can
revel in the precision & anticipation. Less experienced folders might
find it a bit of a chore, since you don't appear to be getting anywhere
for quite a while!

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:00:21 -0300 (ADT)
From: Janell Jarman <jarman@digitalpla.net>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Nick Robinson wrote:

> I suspect pre-creasing appeals more to the seasoned folder, who can
> revel in the precision & anticipation. Less experienced folders might
> find it a bit of a chore, since you don't appear to be getting anywhere
> for quite a while!

I am definitely a "less experienced folder" and I love precreasing.  I
only have a few models with precreasing diagrams.  Are there whole books
of them?

Janell Jarman





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:35:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Carlos Alberto Furuti <furuti@ahand.unicamp.br>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Answering to Janell:

I never saw "whole books" with *only* creasing patterns, reflecting the
fact, as pointed in origami-l, that very few folders are used to figure
out a correct folding sequence and landmarks with no additional step
diagrams.

Every model in Engel's "Folding the Universe" and Kasahara & Maekawa's
"Viva! Origami" is presented with both creasing patterns and ordinary
diagrams; "V!O"'s patterns are much easier since valley/mountain folds are
printed in different colors.
Kasahara's "Origami Omnibus" and "Top Origami" (aka "Origami for the
Connoisseur") have patterns for a few models (rhinoceros, peacock,
ET, game cock) since it presents some ideas by Maekawa.
Lang's "Complete Book of Origami" (I wonder whether Lang thinks of
changing that title) has a pattern for a single model (exactly
for showing how easier diagrams are!).
Technical works by Kawahata present pattern development (see "Origami
Fantasy" and articles in ORU).
And, of course, most origami tesselations are (IMHO, unfortunately)
diagrammed in crease patterns only.

Probably math-folders like Tom Hull could provide a better answer.

        Carlos
        furuti@ahand.unicamp.br www.ahand.unicamp.br/~furuti





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:42:35 -0300 (ADT)
From: rick@tridelta.com (Rick Bissell)
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Nick wrote:

>One thing I *do* find is that careful diagramming improves the
>folding method no end - in the search for a clear diagram step, you
>often rework the move in lots of ways, discovering the most pleasing.

That's interesting!  Is the "most pleasing" folding method sometimes at odds
with the method that is most clearly diagrammed?  If so, which version would
you use?

   -- Rick





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:49:30 -0300 (ADT)
From: Daddy-o D'gou <dwp@transarc.com>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

+Nick Robinson wrote:
+> I suspect pre-creasing appeals more to the seasoned folder, who can
+> revel in the precision & anticipation. Less experienced folders might
+> find it a bit of a chore, since you don't appear to be getting anywhere
+> for quite a while!

You may be partly right about that.  I don't like the tons of
precreasing needed for most tessellations, even though I think the
results are gorgeous!

Janell Jarman, replying to Nick, wrote:
+I am definitely a "less experienced folder" and I love precreasing.  I
+only have a few models with precreasing diagrams.  Are there whole books
+of them?

No, not really.  Some books, such as Viva! Origami do have crease
patterns in them.  I think Origami for the Connisisouseusour(sp?) does
too.

But my original point was the Jeff Beynon's diagramming "style" was to
give a first step of just a crease pattern.  It is up to you to decide
how you can fold it.  For example, I might think to myself:
        Lessee, if I fold the diagonals first, that gives me the center
        landmark with which to locate _that_ crease, then that in turn
        will give me a landmark for _that other_ crease... and so on.

My revelation (though not very profound or unique) was that I _could_
fold a bird base by precreasing and then collapsing, rather than by
_having_ to use the traditional method.

So, you could take a model you like to fold, fold it up through step
<N>, open up the paper and examine the crease pattern.  You could then
try to precrease that pattern.  If you can't find all the landmarks you need
to do that, you may have to drop back to only being able to precrease through
Step <N>-?...   Or as Tom Hull reported, you may find that you can follow the
folding sequence part way, far enough to generate the landmarks you need, and
THEN open up the paper and precrease everything else...

-Daddy-o "ramblin.  I'll stop now." D'gou
(Submitted on 8/21/97 at 15:42 Eastern US Time)





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:17:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: Janell Jarman <jarman@digitalpla.net>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Carlos Alberto Furuti wrote:
>
> Answering to Janell:
>
> I never saw "whole books" with *only* creasing patterns, reflecting the
> fact, as pointed in origami-l, that very few folders are used to figure
> out a correct folding sequence and landmarks with no additional step
> diagrams.

What I like best are models which begin with a crease pattern and then
show steps to fold.  I don't claim to be good enough to look at a crease
pattern and then fold something complicated.  I have done tesselations
that way, but nothing like a crane.  I think that is way beyond my
ability.

> Kasahara & Maekawa's "Viva! Origami"

A lot of talk about this book--sounds great, but WHERE can we get it.
Out of print, right?  Thanks for all the other info.  I am trying to
build my eclectic origami library and always appreciate suggestions for
"must have" books.

> Probably math-folders like Tom Hull could provide a better answer.

Well, how about it?





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:27:34 -0300 (ADT)
From: Janell Jarman <jarman@digitalpla.net>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Daddy-o D'gou wrote:

> But my original point was the Jeff Beynon's diagramming "style" was to
> give a first step of just a crease pattern.

Sorry...I must have missed that.  Sounds like a wonderful challenge
though--kind of like a Rubik's cube.  I love puzzles!

> So, you could take a model you like to fold, fold it up through step
> <N>, open up the paper and examine the crease pattern.  You could then
> try to precrease that pattern.  If you can't find all the landmarks you need
> to do that, you may have to drop back to only being able to precrease through
> Step <N>-?...   Or as Tom Hull reported, you may find that you can follow the
> folding sequence part way, far enough to generate the landmarks you need, and
> THEN open up the paper and precrease everything else...

Great idea...I'll try it!  Should be fun.

Janell Jarman





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:37:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: Daddy-o D'gou <dwp@transarc.com>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

+Nick wrote:
+>One thing I *do* find is that careful diagramming improves the
+>folding method no end - in the search for a clear diagram step, you
+>often rework the move in lots of ways, discovering the most pleasing.

To which Rick replied:
+That's interesting!  Is the "most pleasing" folding method sometimes at odds
+with the method that is most clearly diagrammed?  If so, which version would
+you use?

Use for what?  For diagramming?  I'd like to hear an argument against using
the less clear of <n> methods in a diagram.  For Folding?  Use whatever is
easier.  After you fold the same model several times, you sometimes notice
that there is a better way to fold it than was diagrammed.  Often you can
eliminate those "unsightly" crease lines on a surface of the model.  Once you
figure that out, you can decide for yourself whether the diagrams could have
been improved or not.  I have done this myself several times only to realize
that the easier way to fold is much harder to diagram.  I don't think anyone
would assert that you must follow the diagrams when folding a model.  They are
only one way to achieve the desired end.  Perhaps the easiest way to
_communicate_, but not always the easiest way to fold.

-Daddy-o "Its a ramblin' dayyyyy" D'gou
(Submitted on 8/21/97 at 16:34 Eastern US Time)





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:06:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Daddy-o D'gou <dwp@transarc.com>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

I wrote:
+Use for what?  For diagramming?  I'd like to hear an argument against using
+the less clear of <n> methods in a diagram. ...

I should have written:  I'd like to hear an argument for using the less clear
of <n> methods in a diagram...   I certainly can't imagine one that I would
believe!

-D'gou
(Submitted on 8/21/97 at 17:00 Eastern US Time)





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:24:10 -0300 (ADT)
From: Laurie Bisman <lbisman@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: flowers

> From: Kenny1414@aol.com
> To: Multiple recipients of list <origami-l@nstn.ca>
> Subject: Re: flowers
> Date: Thursday, 21 August 1997 06:28
>
> Also, I remember a Rose with a stem and 3 leaves,
> from a bird base, in one of Harbin's little out-of-print
> paperbacks.
>

Yes, it is in Robert Harbin's Origami 4, page 96 and is a very good rose by
Martin Wall

Regards..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laurie Bisman    lbisman@ihug.co.nz (ICQ number  1458799)
Web page          http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~lbisman/index.html
Company           http://www.addlink.ac.nz/Home.htm





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:46:48 -0300 (ADT)
From: Mr & Mrs Owen <djowen@pcl.net>
Subject: origami baton

Has anyone ever seen a model of  twirlers baton?  This one is for my five
year old (shes the twirler).
This week her brother (the folder) taught her swan and a ball.  Now the
race is on.  Any help would be appreciated.
mother of the foler
joyce





Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:09:26 -0300 (ADT)
From: "Michael J. Naughton" <mjnaught@crocker.com>
Subject: RE: precreasing..

------ =_NextPart_000_01BCAE7E.D3B68DC0

      Daddy-o said:
Use for what?  For diagramming?  I'd like to hear an argument against using
the less clear of <n> methods in a diagram.  For Folding?  Use whatever is
easier.  After you fold the same model several

(of course, he meant "for using", not "against using")

I agree completely. When I diagram models, which I have done both for myself
     and for
others, I consider questions like "does one step follow logically from the
     last?" and "will
all the steps fit comfortably on one (or two, or three) pages?" long before I
     think of showing
the "best" method. I often diagram models in a sequence which I never use in
     folding them,
simply because it is easier to show the diagrammed sequence on paper. I figure
     that
anyone who cares will figure out alternate sequences (and those who don't care
     don't
have to!).

However, I will agree with Nick as well that often the process of diagramming
     forces me
to rethink a folding sequence, and in my attempts to show clearly what needs to
     be done
(e.g. which edge or corner or crease lines up and/or meets which edge or corner
     or crease)
I will discover "better" (i.e. "more precise") ways of folding things.

So I guess if "better" means "more precise", I'd agree with Nick; on the other
     hand, if "better"
means "faster" or "easier", I'd agree with Daddy-o.

And a ho-ho-ho to those who disagree with me!  Do whatcha want - just don't
     force me to join in!

(another 2 cents from
Mike "standing all alone in the middle of a crowd" Naughton)

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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:32:11 -0300 (ADT)
From: rickbissell@ncweb.com
Subject: Re: precreasing..

At 06:06 PM 8/21/97 -0300, Daddy-o D'gou wrote (in response to my question):

>I'd like to hear an argument for using the less clear
>of <n> methods in a diagram...   I certainly can't imagine one that I would
>believe!

I find some moves to be rather fun, like releasing a trapped layer for
example, but sometimes hard to understand immediately from the diagram.  If
I had designed a model (I WISH!) that potentially could have a step that
was rather fun or surprising, I might be tempted to diagram it that way,
especially if the other models in the book were in the high intermediate to
complex range.





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:19:40 -0300 (ADT)
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@compuserve.com>
Subject: Folding Mad Corsicans

What is a "Mad Corsican"?





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 03:39:51 -0300 (ADT)
From: helena@mast.queensu.ca
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Well, for anyone who is keen on precreasing tesselations that don't
come with any instructions, I've just put up 10 on my page at
http://www.mast.queensu.ca/~helena/origami/tessellations/hira.html
I'm afraid they are all very similar, since I was looking at
variations of just one particular tesselation.  I'll do more different
ones before long.
I'd be very interested in comments from anyone who tries them.
Helena
helena@mast.queensu.ca





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 04:41:02 -0300 (ADT)
From: "Bateman A. G." <agb@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Tessellation web pages

Hi Helena,
          Your page is really good. You have put lots of work into it.
You say on your page that all tessellations are related to one of the
archimedean tilings. This is not wholely true, as any of the k-uniform
tilings can be tessellated. I am sure that there are many more non
archimedean tessellations, I have made an origami tessellation based on
voderberg's spiral for example.

Bye for now
Alex

--
- Alex Bateman
- MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology
- agb@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk
- Phone: (01223) 402479
- http://www.mrc-cpe.cam.ac.uk/jong/agb/origami.html





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:48:20 -0300 (ADT)
From: Eric Andersen <ema@techhouse.cis.brown.edu>
Subject: The Geometry Junkyard?

Has anyone seen this page? It's got a number of great links to
origami/math pages that I have not seen before...the question is, why
isn't Tom Hull's page there???

-Eric  :-P
origami@brown.edu

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
\   Eric Andersen                                       /
/    Mathematics and Music          ~  ~ __o            \
\     math@brown.edu              ~  ~ _-\<'_           /
/      ema@netspace.org        ~    ~ (_)/ (_)          \
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
      *** http://www.netspace.org/users/ema/ ***





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:50:46 -0300 (ADT)
From: Eric Andersen <ema@techhouse.cis.brown.edu>
Subject: The Geometry Junkyard? (fwd)

Oops, forgot the URL...but I'm sure you all knew what I meant, right?

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/junkyard/origami.html

>Has anyone seen this page? It's got a number of great links to
>origami/math pages that I have not seen before...the question is, why
>isn't Tom Hull's page there???
>
>-Eric  :-P
>origami@brown.edu

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
\   Eric Andersen                                       /
/    Mathematics and Music          ~  ~ __o            \
\     math@brown.edu              ~  ~ _-\<'_           /
/      ema@netspace.org        ~    ~ (_)/ (_)          \
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
      *** http://www.netspace.org/users/ema/ ***





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:51:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: "Thomas C. Hull" <tch@abyss.merrimack.edu>
Subject: Re: precreasing and tessellations

Hey!  Someone wrote:

>> Probably math-folders like Tom Hull could provide a better answer.

(This was in regards to books that contain only the crease pattern,
as opposed to step-by-step instructions.)

I don't think I can provide a better answer.  Only a few books give
you the model's crease pattern, but always *in addition* to the
actual folding sequence.  Further, I'm not sure if my earlier
posting about Maekawa's Demon was clear enough, but I was merely
commenting that folding this beastie was possible from just
the crease pattern, and that in doing this one can learn an
awful lot about the structure of this amazing model.  I certainly
don't recommend that everyone should start folding their models
from crease patterns only!

In the case of tesselations, the crease pattern is really all you
need.  However, this does little good for someone who is trying
to learn how to fold origami tesselations, as it's not always
clear how one should begin to make such a crease pattern.  But
the alternative -- providing step-by-step instructions for tesselation
folds, is painstakingly difficult and quite futile.  Why?  Because
the crease pattern needs to be folded in it's entirety first
anyway, then the tesselation needs to be collapsed - a very taxing
process as you try to get all the creases to "go" at the same time.
This collapsing process is literally impossible to capture in
2D, static drawings.

For example, Chris Palmer, who has by far the most complex origami
tessellations out there, has all sorts of techniques to make help
his models collapse.  Often it is a subtle motion with the hands that
facillitates this process.  This is one of the reasons why Chris
is such a good teacher - he's thought about the process a lot and
can easily show you how to move your hands and position your fingers
to, say, get the octagon twists in place.  But you can't capture such
subtle motions in diagrams!  (Or, if you tried, the simplest hand
movement would probably take 3 pages to illustrate!)

Fortunately, Chris Palmer is working with Michael LaFosse on a
video tape where Chris teaches some of his geometric and tessellation
models.  Last I heard they were almost finished producing it, but
I don't know when it'll become available.  Michael will be selling
it along with his other origami videos, so be sure to keep an eye
out for it!  For this type of folding (tessellations), video is,
perhaps, the perfect medium for mass-instruction.

----- Tom "blah-wa" Hull

Note: new email address: tch@abyss.merrimack.edu





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:51:35 -0300 (ADT)
From: A.Welles@student.kun.nl
Subject: The need of Instructions

Hi all,

I'd like to know your opinion about the following matter:

Some books have great diagrams and also a lot of instructions accompanying
these diagrams.

How much do we need those instructions? I believe that if the diagrams are
good and clear enough the instructions are not necessary. In the past I have
used also a lot of instructions but I seem to have changed my mind.

Of course there will always be folds or procedures that cannot be shown
in  diagrams (like eg. hidden folds or layers) and I think in such cases
instructions can help.

What is your opinion about that?

Arjan Welles
the Netherlands
A.Welles@student.kun.nl





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:51:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: helena@mast.queensu.ca
Subject: Re: Tessellation web pages

HI Alex,
Glad you like my page.
I better clarrify what I meant about the tesselations being related
to one tesselation; I meant that all those on my page are just
related to one - I mean I've not done any thing other than squares
yet.  I'll put a note about this, and a link to your page for people
to see more different kinds of tilings as origami.
I'm afraid I eded up spending ages doing those diagrams, so I've
not yet played with your program.  I'll try it soon and let
you know.  What I want to do eventually is show how the variations
I've done on the square can be applied to other tesselations.

Bye for now,

Helena





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:52:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: Cathy Palmer-Lister <cathypl@generation.net>
Subject: Re: Tessellation web pages

At 04:41 AM 1997-08-22 -0300, you wrote:
>Hi Helena,
>          Your page is really good. You have put lots of work into it.
.
>
>Bye for now
>Alex
>

I missed the URL for this page, and methinks I'm missing out on a good
thing.....Could some kind soul please post it again, or send it to me
directly at >cathypl@generation.net<  ?

        Thanks,
                                Cathy





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:20:50 -0300 (ADT)
From: Kristine Tomlinson <ktomlinson@platinum.com>
Subject: Correction: New Origami Group in Littleton, MA

Hi Everyone,

In yesterday's posting about an origami gathering at 6:30 on August 26 in
Littleton, MA I put down the wrong street name.  The Reuben Hoar
Library is on Shattuck Street *not* Russell Street as I wrote.  Shattuck
Street is a bow-shaped street, so you can get to it from King St/Rt110 in
two places. The rest of the directions are included below.

Sorry for the mistake,

Kristine Tomlinson
ktomlinson@platinum.com

** Directions **
You can get to Littleton from Routes 2, 495, 110, the old
2A, and 116.  It is just two towns west of Concord.

The library is a few short blocks west from the center of town -- the
only set of lights and the junction of Rts. 495/110/116.  Take King
Street/Rt. 110 heading toward Ayer, MA.  Shattuck Street is a right fork
off of King Street just past a small cemetery.  Or, if you stay on King
Street, the main library entrance is across from Badger Funeral Home.
We've booked the "Conference Room" on the main floor near the
Reference section.  The library number is 508-486-4046.





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:25:46 -0300 (ADT)
From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Subject: Re: The need of Instructions

On 22 Aug 97 at 13:51, A.Welles@student.kun.nl wrote:

> Some books have great diagrams and also a lot of instructions accompanying
> these diagrams.
>
> How much do we need those instructions? I believe that if the diagrams are
> good and clear enough the instructions are not necessary.

I think the trap you'll get into here is in saying "good enough".
[that is, you could say "well, if you needed written instructions
the diagram just wasn't good enough".]  I think that overall a
careful combination of the two works out best.  Not just for hidden
folds, but also for things like sorting out which of several stacked
layers an operation is supposed to occur on, how and where 'repeats'
are supposed to happen, etc.

You might also consider the inverse situation: Instructions are a
LOT more convenient than diagrams are: easier to produce and easier
to transmit and print, no problems of competing graphics formats or
not being able to afford the program that generates the diagram you
want to draw. So one might ask it the other way: how about finding
clear ways to -describe- folds *without* a diagram.  [yes, I know I'm
taking for granted my English-centric view in discounting the
question of "what language", but perhaps one could come up with
some funny 'origami language' ---- diagrams are pretty
incomprehensible unless you know what a hollow arrow means versus a
sold arrow versus an arrow with tick marks on it, etc, and so
perhaps there could be some similar kind of 'origami terminology'
that would allow us to use plain-text to describe folds]

  /Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:03:56 -0300 (ADT)
From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
Subject: Re: Folding Mad Corsicans

Valerie Vann wrote:
>
> What is a "Mad Corsican"?
I just want it noted that I forced myself to pass on this
straight line.  (I hope i survive it)
Perry
--
>From pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net

***************************************
* Hey, no matter where you go, there  *
* you are.  B. Bonzai :?)'            *





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:14:25 -0300 (ADT)
From: joel@exc.com (Dr. Joel M. Hoffman)
Subject: The need of Instructions

> Some books have great diagrams and also a lot of instructions accompanying
> these diagrams.
>
> How much do we need those instructions? I believe that if the diagrams are
> good and clear enough the instructions are not necessary.

Some things just don't lend themselves to diagrams.  I'm in the
process of making Engel's (very complex) butterfly, and at one point
he says in the instructions "turn five flaps over, counting only the
flaps that reach point X."  There are over a dozen flaps, and many of
them look exactly the same.  How would one diagram that?

-Joel
(joel@exc.com)





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:21:21 -0300 (ADT)
From: Paula Larsen <paular@Relations.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Geometry Junkyard?

What page?  URL please.

>
> Has anyone seen this page? It's got a number of great links to
> origami/math pages that I have not seen before...the question is,
> why isn't Tom Hull's page there???
>
> -Eric  :-P
> origami@brown.edu
>
> /=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
> \   Eric Andersen                                       /
> /    Mathematics and Music          ~  ~ __o            \
> \     math@brown.edu              ~  ~ _-\<'_           /
> /      ema@netspace.org        ~    ~ (_)/ (_)          \
> \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
>       *** http://www.netspace.org/users/ema/ ***
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paula Larsen
Webmaster/Assistant University Editor
Editorial Services
Utah State University
801-797-3902
paular@relations.usu.edu





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:24:49 -0300 (ADT)
From: Wayne Fluharty <wflu@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The need of Instructions

At 01:51 PM 8/22/97 -0300, Arjan Welles wrote:
>Some books have great diagrams and also a lot of instructions accompanying
>these diagrams.
>
>How much do we need those instructions? I believe that if the diagrams are
>good and clear enough the instructions are not necessary. In the past I have
>used also a lot of instructions but I seem to have changed my mind.

What about the differing level of experience with folding. Some newer
folders may not understand the fold or know the name of the fold.
Instructions help them (us) out.

Instructions help us to communicate with each other in the group. I can't
diagram a sink fold or reverse fold in an e-mail, but if I mention one of
those here, most people know what I am talking about.

Flu (Wayne "IMHO" Fluharty)
wflu@hotmail.com

"Imagination is the foundation of reality" - Gallagher





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:34:28 -0300 (ADT)
From: Janell Jarman <jarman@digitalpla.net>
Subject: Re: The need of Instructions

A.Welles@student.kun.nl wrote:

> Some books have great diagrams and also a lot of instructions accompanying
> these diagrams.
>
> How much do we need those instructions?

Being a burgeoning folder, I find that the more I learn the less
instructions I need, but at first, I relied heavily on the
instructions.  Hence, probably beginning and intermediate level models
would require more instruction than more advanced ones.  So the answer
is really a question--who's your audience?





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:38:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: helena@mast.queensu.ca
Subject: Re: precreasing and tessellations

Although most tesselations do need to be folded "all at once",
this is not universally true; eg. Momatomi's Stretch wall can
be folded in pretty easy step by step stages; it does need
a precreased grid, but does not need all folds to be precreased.
Also when I fold basic square twist pattern, I do the precreasing,
but then twist the squares one by one (or at least line by line).
There are quite a lot of variations on square twist that can be
then done to finished square twist that can alter it's appearance
quite a bit.
So although most tesselations do need to be done all at once,
there are easier ones for the beginner to start with.  It would
great if it was possible to develop more easy to fold tesselations,
though I've not actually managed this myself yet.
Video does seem the best way for more complex tesselations.

Mathematically, perhaps given that tessellations folded from precreases
do not have any extraneous folds, this would mean they have to be done
all at once?  But most models that are not folded "all at once" do
have extra creases in.

Helena





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:48:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: Daddy-o D'gou <dwp@transarc.com>
Subject: Re: The need of Instructions

Joel wrote:
+Some things just don't lend themselves to diagrams.  I'm in the
+process of making Engel's (very complex) butterfly, and at one point
+he says in the instructions "turn five flaps over, counting only the
+flaps that reach point X."  There are over a dozen flaps, and many of
+them look exactly the same.  How would one diagram that?

That is the kind of thing that makes reading foreign language (foreign to the
reader of course!) origami books tough.  You have to guess and hope you guess
right (unless you define "right" as "Not being unable to proceed past a later
step").

-D'gou
(Submitted on 8/22/97 at 14:44 Eastern US Time)





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:13:41 -0300 (ADT)
From: rick@tridelta.com (Rick Bissell)
Subject: Re: The need of Instructions

>On 22 Aug 97 at 13:51, A.Welles@student.kun.nl wrote:

>So one might ask it the other way: how about finding
>clear ways to -describe- folds *without* a diagram.

I would never be in favor of instructions without diagrams. Here's a few
reasons why:

1) For me, one of the most important functions of the diagram is to provide
me with a picture to verify that the step I just completed is correct.

Unless the the written instructions for each step begin (or end) with: "now
your model should look like this....", it would be difficult to catch an
error until you hit a step downstream where the written instruction and what
you have in your hand is impossible to correlate.
And then you would have to backstep through all of the written steps
doublechecking your interpretation to find the error.  A very tedious process.

2) I also like to scan through the diagrams of a new model quickly to get an
idea of how difficult it is going to be fold.

3) I enjoy comparing how different creators use diagrams and instructions to
convey the folding process to us.  Right or wrong, I form impressions of
these people based on the way the information is presented.  Very similar to
the impressions that we form based on an author's words or an artist's
technique.  Sometimes the instructions are entertaining.  Sometimes the
diagrams are beautifully executed.  Sometimes they are horrible!   Either
way, it's all part of the challange and fun.  (just like this discussion!)

   -- Rick





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:05:50 -0300 (ADT)
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@compuserve.com>
Subject: NO: sort of tessellations

I've got poltergeists in one of my email systems:

I've twice sent a medium length post to origami-L
about tessellation web sites and other sources of
tessellation info, but it seems never to have made
it to the origami-L. My system acts like it went
(both times), but though I'm getting the list OK
on both my subscriptions, these 2 posts are not
showing up.

The subject heading was: tessellations what & where

Did anyone get something like that?

My auto copies of outgoing show the posts as correctly
address to origami-l@nstn.ca

This is really weird.

Valerie_Vann@compuserve.com





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:41:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Rick Bissell <rick@tridelta.com> sez

>Is the "most pleasing" folding method sometimes at odds
>with the method that is most clearly diagrammed?

Firstly, I should point out that what pleases me might well not appeal
to others, but that said...

Origami for me is about the process as much as the end result. If I had
the patience, time & diagramming skills, I could produce epic sets of
diagrams which showed witty, exciting, ingenious ways to achieve each
step. In practise, I try to cram them on one or two pages, with as much
style as I can manage.

Eric Kenneway used to speak of "good moves", folds which were exciting
and stimulating - the petal fold being one that is often overlooked
since it's so familiar. The butterfly lock used by Shen (and myself) is
another. I beleive that almost all designs can be reworked to include as
many "good moves" as possible. The folding process is then elevated
above "take a to b, xx to yy" etc. Back in the good old days of mini-
meetings at Dave Brill's house, we would enthuse over individual steps -
that doesn't seem to be as important to many who simply want to finish!

The ultimate aim of diagrams (for me) is to try to encapsulate the
excitement over individual steps (eg."wow - the corner meets the crease
I made 20 minutes ago" or "Hey - let's unfold that step & do it again -
it was fun!") but as I said, time is a problem. If I can achieve that,
it's closer to the fun of actually teaching someone face to face - to
help them achieve the "joy" of origami through a friendly, relaxed
meeting of two enthusiasts.

Precreasing clearly assists in accurate folding, but isn't very exciting
or flowing. It's a question of balance (to quote the Moody Blues).

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:04:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

rickbissell@ncweb.com sez

>I find some moves to be rather fun, like releasing a trapped layer for
>example, but sometimes hard to understand immediately from the diagram.

This is the crux of the issue - a slow, step by step sequence (probably
adding unwanted creases on the way) could be found, but it would take
time. It's up to the diagrammer to find the best move, then express it
as simply as possible. Many people (includning myself) don't always have
the ability or time to do this, but it is *so important*.

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:44:35 -0300 (ADT)
From: reeds@openix.com (Reeds family)
Subject: Re: origami baton

>Has anyone ever seen a model of  twirlers baton?  This one is for my five
>year old (shes the twirler).
>This week her brother (the folder) taught her swan and a ball.  Now the
>race is on.  Any help would be appreciated.
>mother of the foler
>joyce

For a 5 yr old, I'll bet you can get away with rolling up some paper fairly
tightly,  and shoving a ball (water balloon) onto each end, let the paper
unroll to fill up the hole, and then apply stickers to hold it all together
and decorate it.
Karen
reeds@openix.com





Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 20:00:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: Janell Jarman <jarman@digitalpla.net>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Nick Robinson wrote:

> Precreasing clearly assists in accurate folding, but isn't very exciting
> or flowing.

No?  Flowing, maybe not, but exciting--I get off on it!

Janell





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:13:17 -0300 (ADT)
From: Rjlang@aol.com
Subject: Lang's inappropriate title

Carlos Alberto Furuti asks,

> ...Lang's "Complete Book of Origami" (I wonder whether Lang thinks
> of changing that title)...

Lang would love to change the title, since it wasn't his choice to begin
with, but title changes (along with cover photos) are one of the things
publishers get to foist on the author. Next time Lang will read the fine
print in the contract.

Robert "I KNOW it isn't Complete!" Lang
rjlang@aol.com





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:15:30 -0300 (ADT)
From: Rjlang@aol.com
Subject: Re:  The need of Instructions

Joel sez,

> Some things just don't lend themselves to diagrams.  I'm in the
> process of making Engel's (very complex) butterfly, and at one
> point he says in the instructions "turn five flaps over, counting
> only the flaps that reach point X."  There are over a dozen flaps,
> and many of them look exactly the same.  How would one diagram
> that?

Engel is good at this sort of thing: my favorite verbal instruction in all of
origami is step 17 of his dollar crab, an abridged version of which reads:

"Repeat steps 14 and 15 on the left-hand side of the model. On the next flap
repeat step 16. Use the two procedures alternately all the way to the other
end of the paper. When you reach the opposite face, repeat step 12...All
told, you will perform steps 14 and 15 eight times, step 16 six times, and
step 12 twice."

As I said, that's the _abridged_ version. Try fitting _that_ into a single
diagram!

Robert





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:14:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: Philip Woo <philwoo@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Erotic Origami

I hope that I didn't offend any of our more conservative readers with
my "Spontaneous Airplane Kiss" story. I dont think it was too lewd for
young eyes.My point was ,origami is not limited to the math crowd,
or children, or any particular type of person. Origami reflects the
personality of the folder.A statement like " There is no sex" triggers a
reaction from me.Naturally,as a musician,my lifestyle differs from many
of you. Origami is the topic which brings all this diversity togeher.
Sex(in my opinion) is a natural,essential part of life. A
model of a nude need not be vulgar, but beautiful ,like the nudes
in many museums.I 'd love to see a nude model similar to Herman Von
Goulberg's Cat .
   My first exposure to OUSA occured five years ago. I called the
office, Hoping to schedule a visit.The party on the line told me that
the office was too busy, preparing for the Annual Convention, to accept
visitors, but was curious about who I was, and my interest
in origami. We struck up a conversation and moments later He said"oh ,
what the heck, come on down! That person was Michael Shall, God bless
him.Michael entertained me with all of his fascinating information
and stories about all my favorite creators.He told bits of gossip and
snips of information about Yoshizawa, Tomoko Fuse,Kasahara,Montroll,TH
things that made everybody seem more down-to-earth. The office was busy,
but
Michael took time to introuce me to all the staff present, Including
Marc Kirschenbaum.I told him I would be touring Europe soon, and he
gave me addresses of many of the creators & authors living where I soon
would be visiting.
During the whole time ,Michael clowned and joked.He had a habit of
yelling at the top of his voice!As it turned out , I DID meet Paulo
Mulatinho, in Munich.we exchanged gifts,his wife translated,we shared a
couple of beers,and had a wonderful time . He said that they had a
long day , and would leave after a couple of songs.Well,at the end of
the night,Paulo,his wife and their daughter, were still dancing directly
in front of the stage!
  These are the moments that make my hobby so fun.I have dozens of
encounters that begin with origami,and the spontenaity never ends.Which
comes back to my original point, and my reason to refer to Michael
Shall;Life is short; enjoy every moment you possibly can.Be
lighthearted, treat everyone with equal respect,and share useful
knowledge.





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:41:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Philip Woo <philwoo@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Lending library?

At the OUSA office, in the Museum of Natural history , in New York.





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:24:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: jeffry kerwood <jkjeff@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: diagraming tesselations

ROBERT wrote:
>Helena, I just downloaded all your tessellation images, and am WOWED! I
>really want to learn how to make them. Thanks for sharing them with us.
>
>If diagramming is too time-intensive, then what about having someone
>videotape you make them? I would buy a copy of the videotape. Or
perhaps
>the tape can be converted to MPEG files, that we could download.
>

====================================================

What a wonderful idea. I would buy the video too!
Jeff Kerwood (JKJEFF@HOTMAIL.COM)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 12:32:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: Janell Jarman <jarman@digitalpla.net>
Subject: Re: Erotic Origami

Philip Woo wrote:

>Naturally,as a musician,my lifestyle differs from many of you.

What gross stereotyping!  At least you aimed it at yourself! :)
I'm not sure what all this uproar over "no sex" is about anyway.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought Kim (was it Kim who started this?)
meant no sex as in no gender.  Maybe I'm just too darned innocent. :o

Janell





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 13:23:31 -0300 (ADT)
From: VVOrigami@aol.com
Subject: tessellations what & where (3rd try)

I'm resending this from my AOL account before the subject becomes
irrelevant. Apologies to anyone who got either of the original posts.
====================================================

To find out what tessellation origami (also know as
"twist folding") is, the first thing to do would be
hop over to

Alex Bateman's origami-L archive search page and
search on "tessellation" and "twist folding" to see what's
been written here on the list in the past.

http://www.mrc-cpe.cam.ac.uk/jong/agb/origami.html
Alex Bateman's origami search page
(Plus some tessellation diagrams too)

Next check out 2 web sites with lots of photos and some
crease map diagrams:

Chris Palmer (the tessellation/twist fold master)
http://www.cea.edu/sarah/chris/
Chris' work has also appeared in the OUSA newletter/magazine
in the last year or so.

And Helena (who started the present discussion):
Helena's tessellation page
http://www.mast.queensu.ca/~helena/origami/tesselations/hira.htm

Also see my pages about the twistfolds in the Jackson
Encyclopedia, and diagrams for the Kawasaki Rose Crystallization
tessellation pictured therein (and of course the Jackson
Encyclopedia itself; referenced on the following pages):

http://users.aol.com/valerivann/jackson/jackson.html
Top Page of Jackson Encyclopedia pages

Many snowflake designs from hexagonal paper, e.g. Joseph Wu's
snowflakes, are similar in technique, essentially a single
instance of what could often be repeated into a tessellation
(I believe Joseph's snowflake diagrams are now in the
origami-L archive)

Origami-L Archive
ftp://rugcis.rug.nl/origami/index.htm

Joseph Wu's page with exhaustive links to origami related pages
http://www.datt.co.jp/Origami

Also seldom if ever mentioned in this connection, but of interest
to tessellation explorers are some of the origami books of
Yoshihide Momotani. His Origami Architecture book (OUSA's
supply center still carries this I believe; check the catalog
on the OUSA web page) contains diagrams for "sheets" of tile
roofs, rubblestone walls, etc. that are twistfolds or
tessellations, 3D ones in fact, made from repeated patterns
on a single sheet of paper. One of Momotani's many flower books
also has a hydrangea that is essentially made using tessellation
techniques.

And one of the OUSA Annual Collection books (1995?) contains
a Greek/Roman temple facade model, semi-3D that incorporates
twistfold/tessellation techniques. (Exact reference may be
in the model index, linked from Joseph Wu's page).

The recently re-issued book by Robert Harbin "Secrets of
Origami" has a bookcase that is made similar to twistfolding
or "pleating". (This book also has a new introduction by
David Lister, and belongs in every origami fan's library:
the great classics are here, and notes about and photos of people
from the early years Western origami. Dover is the publisher, get it!
ISBN 0-486-29707-1)

Finally, get a traditional sewing/needlework book and look up
Smocking. Many tessellations (e.g. the "woven ribbon" effect
ones on Helena's pages (and a discussion of something similar
I posted to the origami-L a few years back) are structurally
identical to smocking techniques, the main difference being
that in smocking the folds are left curved and soft and
3D, while in origami the folds are crisp and boxy, and the
pattern is often flattened to 2D, and has both a front and
back design, plus when made of translucent or thin paper,
reveals a different design when held up to light.

This list is just some of the more readily available material;
if you have access to academic esoterica (obscure math
journals, etc.) you can turn up more. Tom Hull's web site
about origami math would probably be the place to start:
www.math.uri.edu/~hull

--valerie (never the the same snowflake twice; shortly
appearing in the "Journal of Irreproducible Results" :-)
Valerie_Vann@compuserve.com
  Mostly Modular/Geometric Origami Web Pages:
    http://people.delphi.com/vvann/index.html
    http://members.aol.com/valerivann/index.html





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:50:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: JacAlArt@aol.com
Subject: Kawahata Beetle Book

Just got it. In Japanese. Title is something like Origami Sensai no
Kabutomushi. Translates to Origami Beetles. Very unhappy with it. All models
are very simple or are modular. Bleeuch!!! Similar to Wild Animals of The
World or Imaginary Animals of The World. Nowhere near the caliber of Origami
Fantasy!  :-(

Why are there no good complex books coming out?!
Yo -- Kirschenbaum -- Shafer -- where are you guys?!
(And what happened to Kawahata?!)

~Alec





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:38:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: Mike and Janet Hamilton <mikeinnj@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: (no) getting bumped off the list

Daniel J. Byrne & Candice Bradley wrote:
> By the way, I saw the tail-end of an origami segment on one of those
> daytime shows this week, hometime or one of those.  They were
> demonstrating a sliding modular piece (the creator's name was given
> too) and there were a whole bunch of other pieces on the counter.
> Anyone else see this?

Gay Merrill Gross made two appearances on Hometime on The Discovery
Channel. The appearances were each for eight minutes. The show numbers
are #11 for origami and #33 for napkin folding.

Janet Hamilton

--
mailto:Mikeinnj@concentric.net
http://www.concentric.net/~Mikeinnj/





Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 23:27:08 -0300 (ADT)
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: The need of Instructions

I like the format of the re-issued Robert Harbin
Secrets of Origami book: Diagrams, plus separate
text clarifying important points where the diagrams
may not be sufficient. In this particular case, the
quality - by present day standards - of the diagrams
varies, and sometimes I've needed to refer to the text
and sometimes not.

I was surprised to find that the model I've the most
trouble with so far was the Scotty Dogs' faces, pulling
out the extra paper. I've not made one yet I'm really
satisfied with.

I love the Montoya models; and check out the recommended
paper sizes!! It does seem to be true that best results
are with small thin paper. The flapping bird is quite
different from the "standard" ones, and the ones I made
with 3 inch or smaller thin flower paper work the best.
I also made the sheep from the Nativity Scene from 3 inch;
the head split, but it is still a very good sheep; probably
a little bigger paper would work fine (or something thinner
and/or tougher...)

--valerie





Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:52:05 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joyce Owen <joyceowen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Folding Mad Corsicans

okay. I'm stupid.  I'll bite.  What's a Mad Corsican?
mother of the folder
joyce owen

>Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:03:56 -0300 (ADT)
>From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <origami-l@nstn.ca>
>Subject: Re: Folding Mad Corsicans
>
>Valerie Vann wrote:
>>
>> What is a "Mad Corsican"?
>I just want it noted that I forced myself to pass on this
>straight line.  (I hope i survive it)
>Perry
>--
>>From pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net
>
>***************************************
>* Hey, no matter where you go, there  *
>* you are.  B. Bonzai :?)'            *
>***************************************
>

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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:55:46 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joyce Owen <joyceowen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: origami baton

Yes, that the idea I've been toying with.  It will also be seen by all
her twirl team & parents so I'm trying to do something more impressive.

>Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:44:35 -0300 (ADT)
>From: reeds@openix.com (Reeds family)
>To: Multiple recipients of list <origami-l@nstn.ca>
>Subject: Re: origami baton
>
>>Has anyone ever seen a model of  twirlers baton?  This one is for my
five
>>year old (shes the twirler).
>>This week her brother (the folder) taught her swan and a ball.  Now
the
>>race is on.  Any help would be appreciated.
>>mother of the foler
>>joyce
>
>For a 5 yr old, I'll bet you can get away with rolling up some paper
fairly
>tightly,  and shoving a ball (water balloon) onto each end, let the
paper
>unroll to fill up the hole, and then apply stickers to hold it all
together
>and decorate it.
>Karen
>reeds@openix.com
>
>
>

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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:27:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joyce Owen <joyceowen@hotmail.com>
Subject: So good to read you talk

Most nights insomnia keeps me up, but with origami-l to read I no longer
have to watch infomercials at 2 AM.   I'm so glad to get the messages
again. thanks everyone
mother of the folder
joyce
>

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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:30:31 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: precreasing..

Janell Jarman <jarman@digitalpla.net> sez

>No?  Flowing, maybe not, but exciting--I get off on it!

I get off on (nice turn of phrase) Ladybird books with dust jackets &
making strange noises on my guitar (CD coming out next year!) - as we
say here in Yorkshire "there's n'owt so queer as folk" ;)

all the best,

Nick Robinson

email           nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with RealAudio clips!





Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:31:04 -0300 (ADT)
From: Dino Andreozzi <andreozzi.a@botkyrka.mail.telia.com>
Subject: About Mad Corsicans

Valerie Vann wrote:
>
> What is a "Mad Corsican"?

A Mad Corsican is a - crazy - person from Corsica (a Mediterranean
island, not so far from Italy).
Is JJ Casalonga from Corsica?

Dino





Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:31:40 -0300 (ADT)
From: Michel Bartolone <bartolon@execpc.com>
Subject: From: "Michael Montebello" RE: Help (MSN & List Server)

>Return-Path: florafauna@classic.msn.com
>Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 16:00:41 UT
>From: "Michael Montebello" <florafauna@classic.msn.com>
>To: "Michel Bartolone" <bartolon@execpc.com>
>Subject: RE: Help (MSN & List Server)
>
>
>Mr. Bartolone,
>
>I would ask you relay a message to the lsit  server group. Since I cannot at
>this point.
>
>Please note if you are a Microsoft Internet User your e-mail address has been
>changed and while you can receive messages you no longer will be able to mail
>messages to the list server.
>Microsoft has revised the email addresses from :
>"name" @msn.com to "name"@classic.msn.com
>
>I've tried to send some messages out to ask for assistance (including to
>Joseph Wu, so Joseph if you do get my message I still could use the help).
>
>You need to change you email address to the new MSN identifier
>(classic.msn.com) to send mail to the server. Just re-subscribing may(??) put
>you in twice since MSN will deliver messages to you using either way.
>I assume the list server uses our email address as a password, so the change
>by MSN causes the "sent" email to be rejected but the incoming mail to be
>fine.
>Please reply directly to me, or to all if you have some good words of wisdom.
>Sorry for the intrusion, I could not figure a way to get an answer without
>someone sending this message for me.
>Thanks
>Mike (a shadow of the "Hobbit")
