




Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:16:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: "Metzger, Jacob" <JMetzger@citgroup.com>
Subject: Origami Source booklist now online on OUSA website

To all-

Just noticed that OUSA has the Origami Source Book-List on-line on their
website: Go to the "Shopping" link from their home page:
http://www.origami-usa.org or go directly to
http://www.origami-usa.org/source.htm.

They have a (temporary) on-line form for ordering, but since the payment
options are only check, money order, or fax in your credit card #
(there's no way to enter your CC# securely or otherwise) it's usefulness
is limited. BUT, they will have a shopping cart system online soon!
Anyway, it's great to finally have their up-to-date list online!

See you at the convention!

Yaacov Metzger
jmetzger@citgroup.com





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:18:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: reply/subject="Dear Mr. Montroll"

Robert Brandin <Rabbart@worldnet.att.net> sez

>Believe me I have actually gotten offers.

I'm sure you have, I just can't quite come to terms with the idea of
selling models rather than sharing the knowledge of how to make them.

Each to their own....

all the best,

Nick Robinson

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with real Audio clips!





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:35:18 -0300 (ADT)
From: Bonnie Elbode <belbode@cms.cc.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Yoshizawa Books (was Bats)

At 12:57 PM 6/27/97 -0300, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>        I have heard mention a few times of Akira Yoshizawa's books but I
>have no idea how to get a hold of them. I have a copy of Museum 1 (I
>think!!!!), but that's all. I've never even heard of  "Sasaku Origami" as
>mentioned by Sebastian.
>
>                        Please Help!
>
>                                        Dennis

        I previously printed off a list of books for sale at the Japanese
bookstore website - I believe Sasauga (sp?)? Bookstore (don't have the list
at work)..  Net search for "Japanese books" ought to produce it tho.  Anyway
the Sasaku books v. 1, v. 2,( & v. 3?)are on the list with a short
description of some of the folds in each books, not to mention a whole slew
of other tantalizing titles.  I've been tormenting myself wanting to order
them.  $4.00 shipping for first book & 50 cents thereafter makes me want to
wait until I can afford to order a whole bunch of origami books at one time tho.
Bonnie Elbode
Undergraduate Library
5155 Gullen Mall
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI  48202
                     belbode@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU
FAX:     (313) 577-5265





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:52:22 -0300 (ADT)
From: Dennis Walker <d_and_m_walker@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Yoshizawa Books (was Bats)

Hello Pat,

        Thank you very much, I shall go hunting!

        Yes, I sympathise with the not everything photographed is
diagrammed. Museum 1 is the same. Maybe it's there to say 'From this model
you can also ...' But then I can't read Japanese and it may well say that
anyway :-).

                        Dennis





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:52:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: Dennis Walker <d_and_m_walker@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying

Hello,
        Just as an extra example, I often take my origami into work to
adorn my desk. In November last year I decided that I needed space for
more.
        In the U.K. there is a Children in Need charity television
programme every November, so I made it known that I was selling my origami
for Children in Need.
        People came (mostly friends) and asked how much I was charging. I
said, 'What would you pay, say 50p minimum"
        I made 20 U.K pounds for the charity.

        One friend paid 3 pounds for a Brill Lion in brown paper. He said
that it was worth it, charity or not.

        I would also add that the origami that was bought was either taken
home for children or is still on the purchasers desk.

        The moral of this is that there is a market out there for pre-made
origami, but it might take some convincing that it really wants it. Maybe
we should consider touting Origami as an art form to non-paper-folders.
Most people still regard it as 'something they tried once as a kid.'

                                Dennis





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:02:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: John Abbott <john@nombas.com>
Subject: Detailed Frog

Lately there's been a commercial for some chocolate that has a number of
origami models folded from the chocolate wrapper which seems to be a square
piece of foil. One of these is a detailed frog model, it looks like a tree
frog because of the toes. Does anyone know of where I can find diagrams for
such a model?





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:06:35 -0300 (ADT)
From: Bonnie Elbode <belbode@cms.cc.wayne.edu>
Subject: Sasaku Origami

Dennis-
        It's on a list of books for sale at the on-line Japanese bookstore -
I think Sasauga (sp?) Bookstore.  Net search for Japanese books ought to
find the bookstore site.  Anway the Sasaku books v. 1, v. 2, &(v.3?) are on
the list with a short description of some folds in each volume, not to
mention many other tantalizing titles.  I've been tormenting myself wanting
to order them, but $4.00 shipping for the first book & 50 cents thereafter
makes me want to wait until I can afford to order a bunch at once.
Bonnie Elbode
Undergraduate Library
5155 Gullen Mall
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI  48202
                     belbode@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU
FAX:     (313) 577-5265





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:23:20 -0300 (ADT)
From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch>
Subject: Megabytes (was:Re: Postscript format - Rose)

Janet Hamilton wrote:
The "crystalized rose" is a teselation.  You want the one just
> listed as "Rose".  It's about 113 MB if I remember correctly.
                          ^^^^^^^

Only 113MB? That'll download in 1 sec! <g>

Matthias





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:00:11 -0300 (ADT)
From: Dino Andreozzi <andreozzi.a@botkyrka.mail.telia.com>
Subject: Re: Megabytes (was:Re: Postscript format - Rose)

Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
>
> Janet Hamilton wrote:
> The "crystalized rose" is a teselation.  You want the one just
> > listed as "Rose".  It's about 113 MB if I remember correctly.
>                                 ^^^^^^^
>
> Only 113MB? That'll download in 1 sec! <g>
>
> Matthias

Hi Matthias,
the rose is not 113MB as Janet said. The file is 113 kb.

Best wishes

Dino

Origami homepage: http://hem.passagen.se/dion





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:01:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying

Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@t-online.de> sez

>exhibition already told me that he thinks in the Kaiserstrasse are
>the people who'd really be willing to pay a reasonable price for my work.
>Well, we'll see. If the opportunity arises, I certainly won't say "no".
>(Yes, Nick, this is a sad fact. But I somehow have to support my hobby.)

Some comments - the probable return would not provide a decent rate per
hour - how much would you charge for a 2 hour design?

I'd suggest the best way to make money is to offer teaching classes at
local schools/institutes/libraries. Each student pays a small fee & you
charge standard tutor rates. It's fun as well! Don't forget to hand out
PR sheets for your local origami society...

Why not put together a small home-made photocopied booklet of
your/traditional designs & sell that along with some paper instead??

all the best,

Nick Robinson

*** Origami is sharing, not selling! ***

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with real Audio clips!





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:29:36 -0300 (ADT)
From: Amy Huang <ahuang@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re: Postscript format - Rose

hi there!

>The newer Kawasaki rose is in .pdf format at
>http://www.the-village.com/origami/diagram.html.  Make sure you get the
>right
>diagram.  The "crystalized rose" is a teselation.  You want the one just
>listed as "Rose".  It's about 113 MB if I remember correctly.
>
>Janet Hamilton

        You've read my mind exactly! I downloaded the crystalized rose
instead of the other one. Anyway, how is the crystalized rose different from
the other roses? I haven't tried it yet, but it looks like I'll need OFTC
(which I have) as a reference and replace some steps with the ones outlined
in the diagram?

        Thanks,
        Amy
        http://www.angelfire.com/la/Lal
            \\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//
            ||                                              ||
            ||    ------     Amy Huang                      ||
            ||   ||||||||    ahuang@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca     ||
            ||   ||||||||    http://www.ualberta.ca/~ahuang ||
            ||  /        \                                  ||
            ||  |   _    |   Faculty of Pharmacy            ||
            ||  |  |_)   |   University of Alberta          ||
            ||  |  | \   |   Edmonton, Alberta, Canada      ||





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:06:17 -0300 (ADT)
From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch>
Subject: Selling Origami (was:Re: reply/subject="Dear Mr. Montroll")

Nick Robinson wrote:
> Robert Brandin <Rabbart@worldnet.att.net> sez
RB>Believe me I have actually gotten offers.
NR> I'm sure you have, I just can't quite come to terms with the idea of
NR> selling models rather than sharing the knowledge of how to make
NR>them.

Well, most artists do this: They sell their art, they reproduce
other people's art, and they teach others how to make art.
Musicians sometimes play their own music, but most of the time they just
play other people's stuff and sometimes even get paid megabucks for
doing this. Even if they don't teach a single line of their songs.

I see nothing wrong with selling Origami. The only problem might be
legal issues. OTOH, I'm not sure Guns'n Roses pay any royalties for
all the cover versions they're famous for...

Matthias, selling out





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:06:54 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Marius Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Megabytes (was:Re: Postscript format - Rose)

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
> > listed as "Rose".  It's about 113 MB if I remember correctly.
> Only 113MB? That'll download in 1 sec! <g>

Well, as we all know, PDF is a pretty efficient format.

BTW: I have found out that for certain GIF files, if you wrap them um in
PostScript and compress the PostScript file with GNU zip, the resulting
compressed file is even smaller than the original GIF file. Interesting,
isn't it?

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:07:32 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Marius Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Yoshizawa Books (was Bats)

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, pat slider wrote:
> in fact, in "Sousaku" at least, not everything
> photographed is even diagrammed. Bummer.

That's one thing I have noticed about several Yoshizawa books. If you see
a picture with several animals, you can rely on the fact that those which
look interesting aren't diagrammed. Examples in Sasaku Origami: on page 11
there is a picture with a dozen different insects, but only a simple
grasshopper and a dragonfly are diagrammed. The scarab beetle that looks
so wonderful in the photograph is nowhere to be found. Or on page 27,
there is a picture of a really wonderful fox model. There is also a page
number printed at the bottom of the picture, so I thought that this
indicated where the diagrams to the model were to be found, quickly opened
the page and ... Damn! Only some simple fox that cannot even be compared
with the wonderful model in the picture.

This is a pretty discouraging thing about Yoshizawa's books.

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:58:41 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Marius Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Dennis Walker wrote:
>         One friend paid 3 pounds for a Brill Lion in brown paper. He said
> that it was worth it, charity or not.

One question: How long did you work for that model? Cutting the paper,
folding, all in all? And what hourly wage would that be?

My point is that I'll either sell my origami to a reasonable price, or I
won't sell it at all and be just as content. Contrariwise, I'll give it to
my friends and be even happier.

Ah, but this raises an interesting question:

What is a reasonable price for an origami model?

Let's say somebody wanted a Neal Elias Last Dance from me. I'd do it from
home-made tissue foil, and I'd work on it, on and off, including making
the paper, cutting it etc., 4-5 hours. (I haven't timed it yet, but I
think that's a plausible number.) The final sculpture is about 12cm high.

What do you think would be a reasonable price for that? And after all, can
you calculate the price from how long you worked for it? I'd consider
hourly wages as a sign of a craft. A work of art can't be measured in such
a way.

>         The moral of this is that there is a market out there for pre-made
> origami,

Please, don't call it pre-made. "I'd like a pre-made van Gogh, instead of
buying canvas, brushes, colors, and an instruction book, and painting it
myself." Call it "origami models", "finished models", or something else,
but not "pre-made".

> Maybe
> we should consider touting Origami as an art form to non-paper-folders.
> Most people still regard it as 'something they tried once as a kid.'

"Ah yes, painting? I tried that once as a kid!"

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:14:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Marius Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Japanese Mulberry paper advantages?

Ah yes, I forgot something. If you look into Peter Engel's "Folding the
Universe", you can see a paper that seems to be similar to the stuff I
use. Its texture can quite clearly be seen in the picture of the reindeer.

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:14:44 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Marius Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Japanese Mulberry paper advantages?

Hi Dennis!

Uh-oh, this is probably going to be a long posting. I apologize in
advance.

I started out with tissue foil (or "Seidenpapier", silk paper as it is
called in Germany), but I quickly noticed that this was not an optimal
solution. The color easily rubbed off -- I always had red or blue fingers
for two days after I worked with tissue foil --, and besides, they faded
very quickly, ruining the folded piece. And tissue foil is not an optimal
material anyway.

Then I noticed that mulberry paper one day in a store. It is very thin and
comes in bright colors. I was a bit laid back by the thick fibers it had
running through it, but when I glued it to foil, it worked out quite well.
I didn't notice those fibers at all. The paper folded pretty good, and
colors didn't rub off, so this was already an improvement. I think the
colors it is dyed with are quite stable, I have not yet noticed any signs
of fading. But there is one disadvantage, though, that the paper always
becomes kind of fuzzy after a bit of folding. This may be even desirable
for some models, but I don't like that.

I had previously experimented with backcoating mulberry paper, ie. with
glueing two sheet of mulberry paper together using wallpaper paste. I
noticed that the resulting paper was not fuzzy at all, and the colors also
got brighter. So I tried glueing a single sheet of mulberry paper to a
glass desk, using wall paper paste. I was pleasantly surprized: The
wallpaper paste didn't affect the paper's thickness, but the foldability
greatly improved. It wasn't fuzzy anymore, and the colors were much
brighter than before. I then glued this prepared sheet of mulberry
paper to foil with spray glue, and this certainly seemed to me like the
ultimate paper for complex models.

After that first attempt, I experimented on. I have found a thin, white
kind of mulberry paper without fibers, which is used for paper batik and
such. This also folds well. I have tried dyeing the wallpaper paste, using
water-soluble printing colors and other colors, and this also works well.
And by choosing my own colors, I don't have to fear that they'll fade.

There are many different types of mulberry paper to be found, with or
without visible fibers, colored or not, with speckles, and so on. Just
look around you, in art supply stores, as gift wrapping paper, or such.

A few additional notes:

- You have to use spray glue to glue paper to foil, since wallpaper paste
would simply not stick to it.

- It's hard to explain how you can distinguish mulberry paper from normal
paper by looking. Mulberry paper is always a bit fuzzy, and it is very strong
even if it's tissue-thin. It's often quite translucent.

> I was going to ask where you find Mulberry paper, but then I fed
> "Japanese mulberry paper" to the Alta Vista search engine
> http://altavista.digital.com and it returned at least two sites selling it.
> Are there any particular dealers you would recommend?

The kind of mulberry paper I use is sold as a wrapping paper in Germany.
It is quite thin, but it has very strong and distinctive fibers running
through it.

I have looked into Yahoo and AltaVista today, and http://www.siamco.com/
webstore/htm/store.cgi?page=sheet.htm seems to be offering a package of thin
mulberry paper. Perhaps you could try that out and send me a few sheets? :-)
It seems a bit small, though, 7"x10". I usually buy sheets that have between
50cm x 70cm (20"x28") and 70cm x 100cm (28"x40").

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:52:28 -0300 (ADT)
From: pat slider <slider@stonecutter.com>
Subject: Re: Japanese Mulberry paper advantages?

> The kind of mulberry paper I use is sold as a wrapping paper in Germany.
> It is quite thin, but it has very strong and distinctive fibers running
> through it.
>
> I have looked into Yahoo and AltaVista today, and http://www.siamco.com/
> webstore/htm/store.cgi?page=sheet.htm seems to be offering a package of thin
> mulberry paper. Perhaps you could try that out and send me a few sheets? :-)
> It seems a bit small, though, 7"x10". I usually buy sheets that have between
> 50cm x 70cm (20"x28") and 70cm x 100cm (28"x40").

In the states there is a chain of import stores called CostPlus that
sells packages of "mulberry tissue paper" for less than $2 a package.
Can't remember how many sheets, at least 2 but possibly 4 32" x 20"
sheets.

You can also find this online  at fascinating-folds.com....mulberry
paper being equal to Thai unryu paper. I've also gotten sheets of
unryu from Dick Blick. Once again you can find a lot of possible
international sources at Janet Hamilton's page.

And yes, I think I recall that Engel wrote in his intro that he used
an unryu/foil combination.

Unable to resist hopping in here again....

pat slider
slider@stonecutter.com





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:02:16 -0300 (ADT)
From: pat slider <slider@stonecutter.com>
Subject: Re: Japanese Mulberry paper advantages?

> And yes, I think I recall that Engel wrote in his intro that he used
> an unryu/foil combination.

Had second thoughts on this after I posted and went and
double-checked Engel's book. Actually he says that he used Japanese
rice paper w/aluminum foil. oh well. (It's in the section on
materials.)

pat slider
slider@stonecutter.com





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:33:43 -0300 (ADT)
From: Laurie Bisman <lbisman@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: PDF format

I recently purchased the full Acrobat software from Adobe and was pleased
that now I could actually produce PDF files and not just read them. I
installed it and as yet haven't used it, when I also upgraded my Word to
Word97 only to find that I was too 'quick on the draw' as Word97 has the
capability of producing both PDS and HTML formats. Luckily my HTML software
was shareware.

To that end, if anybody wants good quality drawings, instead of the greatly
reduced quality ones published on my web page, I can PDF them and email.

I spent a couple of hours scanning 20 or so models so that I have a few
weeks worth waiting to publish.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laurie Bisman    lbisman@ihug.co.nz
Web page          http://homepages.ihug.nz.co/~lbisman/index.html
Company           http://www.addlink.ac.nz/Home.htm





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:43:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: Devin McPherson <devmc@oeonline.com>
Subject: Re: links--was rabbits

Amy wrote:

> Hello!
> >
> >
> > BTW, speaking of links, what became of the web ring idea?  Or maybe
> I
> > shouldn't ask.....
> >
> >
>
>         The webring STILL exists and is STILL open to anyone who would
>
> like to become a part of the ring. I've gotten some e-mail from people
> who
> are interested, but no one has gone through the entire 3 steps
> outlined on
> the ring homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/la/Lal). The HTML code has
> to
> be displayed on sites in order for me to officially add people to the
> ring.
>
>         Anyway, I encourage people with origami sites to join the
> ring!
>         Amy
>

I got an e-mail reply that I was officialy a part of that web ring.
You should be able to get to the others in the ring from my page.

--
-=[Devin]=-

http://oeonline.com/~devmc/origami.html

*******************************************
 It has been said that a million monkeys
 on a million keyboards could type the
 complete works of William Shakespeare.
 Thanks to AOL, we know thats not true.





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 21:29:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Paul & Jan Fodor <origami@aloha.net>
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying

Nick Robinson wrote:
>
> Sebastian Marius Kirsch <skirsch@t-online.de> sez
>
> >exhibition already told me that he thinks in the Kaiserstrasse are
> >the people who'd really be willing to pay a reasonable price for my work.
> >Well, we'll see. If the opportunity arises, I certainly won't say "no".
> >(Yes, Nick, this is a sad fact. But I somehow have to support my hobby.)
>
> Some comments - the probable return would not provide a decent rate per
> hour - how much would you charge for a 2 hour design?
>
> I'd suggest the best way to make money is to offer teaching classes at
> local schools/institutes/libraries. Each student pays a small fee & you
> charge standard tutor rates. It's fun as well! Don't forget to hand out
> PR sheets for your local origami society...
>
> Why not put together a small home-made photocopied booklet of
> your/traditional designs & sell that along with some paper instead??
>
> all the best,
>
> Nick Robinson
>
> *** Origami is sharing, not selling! ***
>
> personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
> homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
> BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
> RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with real Audio clips!

Well folks, its the new kid on the block and I guess, I stirred up some
dust with the selling part.  I wasn't going to jump in so soon but I
think my input at this point might help one side.  I've been selling now
for 10+ years.  So far as I know, all the arts have had their patron
saints.  Maybe I'm in a slightly different catagory as I think more of
my stuff as jewelry and most of my customers do too.  It just happens to
be really neat, origami jewelry.  There are a lot of origami admirers
too, many who have folded and appreciate the intricacies of the art
after having dabbled in it themselves.  And, there is also the charm of
seeing origami in miniature form which is necessary when one is making
jewelry.   Yes, I do get away from the purity of the art when I glue and
cut but I find it necessary to create jewelry.  I have long forgiven
myself for those indiscretions, and I confess my sins to the people who
ask.  As for sharing, I share with anyone who asks how to make anything
I fold;  the exposure has led my to several classes people have asked me
to teach.  I share the art of making jewelry with origami as well;
fearlessly because, I figure it would be pretty hard for people to catch
up to over a thousand pieces in an inventory.  I haven't come across any
competition even after being out there this long.   Through all of this,
the bottom line is a retirement suppliment of a $1000 a month (average
sales) is very nice to have, I found the repeated folding of same models
still teach me new things and enhances my skill with new models.  And
folks, I thoroughly enjoy it and don't worry about who enjoys it the
most.   Aloha, Jan





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:35:17 -0300 (ADT)
From: Ronnie White <ronew@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Detailed Frog

At 03:02 PM 6/27/97 -0300, you wrote:
>Lately there's been a commercial for some chocolate that has a number of
>origami models folded from the chocolate wrapper which seems to be a square
>piece of foil. One of these is a detailed frog model, it looks like a tree
>frog because of the toes. Does anyone know of where I can find diagrams for
>such a model?
>
Probably the best frog model ever belongs to Michael LaFosse, which can be
seen at his website at www.origamido.com. The diagrams for this frog model
will be coming out in video format  during the later part of July 1997. A
great model definitely worth the wait.
Ron White
ronew@mindspring.com

"Never underestimate the incredible destructive power of origami"

                                                  Earthworm Jim





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:36:36 -0300 (ADT)
From: Maldon7929@aol.com
Subject: RE: folding vs. sculpting, art vs. craft & book review

Matthew said:

>Comparing art by Mondrian  to art by my 5 year old by calling  them both
paintings >and nothing more doesn't tell the whole story.

I received J.C. Nolan's book "Creating Origami" not long ago and wish to
share the quotation she or he used to begin the introductory chapter.

In order to give the proper credit, this is Maldon Wilson quoting J.C Nolan
quoting Rudyard Kipling:

"And the first rude sketch that the world had seen was joy to his mighty
heart, till the devil whispered from behind the leaves. 'It's pretty, but is
it art?' "

For those of you who want to develope your own models: I am very pleased with
this book. It makes a wonderful companion piece to "Origami from Angelfish to
Zen" by Peter Engel.

Maldon





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:52:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: "Kyle S. Heyman" <ksh@mwweb.com>
Subject: I'm new!

Hey, I just subscribed today! I'm 12 years old, a male caucasian, and I
live in painesville, Ohio. I am looking for www addresses of easy, but
neat, dollar bill diagrams. If you have any, please let me know!





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:56:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Dennis Walker <d_and_m_walker@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying

Hello Sebastian,

You wrote,
>One question: How long did you work for that model? Cutting the paper,
>folding, all in all? And what hourly wage would that be?

>My point is that I'll either sell my origami to a reasonable price, or I
>won't sell it at all and be just as content. Contrariwise, I'll give it to
>my friends and be even happier.

        Good point. If I were to charge the rate I get as a Software
Engineer, the
Lion would have been extortionate and quite simply wouldn't sell. If I were
to be honest, I suspect that most people who bought the origami simply did
so as a different way to give to charity. Usually when I clear my desk I
simply give it all away which, I must admit, I am happier doing. I have had
the pleasure of folding the model and the pleasure of seeing the finished
result, giving it away means that I can do it all again:-) People usually
seem quite happy to walk off with a Fuse box ready to take a small gift!

>I'd consider
>hourly wages as a sign of a craft. A work of art can't be measured in such
>a way.

        I think that the difficulty here is that origami is a re-creatable
art. It's a little like the Van Gogh example that you used. It is just as
if he had left a set of instructions on how to paint the 'Sunflowers' as a
'painting by numbers' but not as simple. There is no denying the artistry
involved in the original creation, but what about the ones that were
recreated from the instructions? They will also probably have had some
input or modification by the painter(folder). How to differentiate in terms
of cost is beyond me :-)

>Please, don't call it pre-made. "I'd like a pre-made van Gogh, instead of
>buying canvas, brushes, colors, and an instruction book, and painting it
>myself." Call it "origami models", "finished models", or something else,
>but not "pre-made".

        Oh dear! On re-reading this, I see what you mean. Please take this
as the type of unfortunate thing that can happen when you just sit down and
type. 'Pre-made' sounds awful. I like 'finished models'.

>"Ah yes, painting? I tried that once as a kid!"

        I did try it and I was awful! I'll stick to origami.

                        Bye for now
                                        Dennis

P.S. How would copyright be affected? There used to be someone in Glasgow
who sold origami birds stuck to painted cards. The birds were, in some
cases, recognisably Ligia Montoya designs, although I suspect that he made
some of his own based on Ms. Montoyas designs. I even saw the books that he
used under the stall.





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:36:36 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Marius Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying

Hi Dennis!

On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Dennis Walker wrote:
>         I think that the difficulty here is that origami is a re-creatable
> art.

Yes, but that's no difference to music or painting. All forms of art are
in some way recreatable. All musicians "recreate" pieces by other
musician. "Recreating" paintings is not very popular, but it can be done
and is frequently. Art students, I'm told, often re-paint works by the old
masters for practice. These paintings usually don't sell though. But do
you remember the case with the false Hitler diaries? The guy -- Konrad
Kujau, if I remember correctly -- who forged these diaries is also forging
paintings, by Rembrandt, van Gogh and other painters. He is already
selling them as original Kujaus, and is thus slowly creating a market for
forged paintings.

The difference between recreating in painting and in origami is really
only one of scale. And furthermore, the distinction between "original" and
"re-folded" models is not that important because there is no(t yet) market
for models that are folded by their creators.

> It's a little like the Van Gogh example that you used. It is just as
> if he had left a set of instructions on how to paint the 'Sunflowers' as a
> 'painting by numbers' but not as simple.

He _has_ left a set of instructions, and that is the finished painting. Of
course an origami model is simpler to recreate than a painting, since
origami is much more geometrical, and has much more definite reference
points. But there are also exceptions to this rule. I can only mention
Herman's Cat and Gorilla again, and of course also the "free-form" works
by Paul Jackson.

And there are of course also paintings that are easier to recreate than
others, Piet Mondrian being one notable example.

> >"Ah yes, painting? I tried that once as a kid!"
>         I did try it and I was awful! I'll stick to origami.

Well, I have tried it as well (in fact, I still have to try it at school
:-) ) and the results are not that fabulous. But painting can also be
learned, and I will have to learn it at some stage, even if it's only so I
can go on diagramming models. Because I'm such a bad painter, my
diagramming skills are terrible.

> P.S. How would copyright be affected?

You can copyright a finished origami model, ie. so nobody can fold a model
exactly like that, with the same paper, the same size, the same finishing
etc. But this is not very practical, and I don't think that this copyright
has yet been enforced in some case.

You can also copyright a set of diagrams for a model, because this counts
as a work of art, as a drawing, and is copyrighted as such.

But the one thing you can -- to my knowledge -- not copyright is a folding
sequence for an origami model. This counts as an algorithm, and algorithms
cannot by copyrighted. They can although be patented, but patenting an
algorithm is quite expensive and work-consuming, so today few origami
models are patented. One exception I know is the Miura fold, a folding
method for folding maps etc. so they can be opened with one movement, and
closed with another. I recall that there was someone on this list who
claimed to have a patented origami model. I think it was a birthday
present from her father who is a patent lawyer. If this person is still on
the list, could you please speak up?

David Lister also wrote a short article about copyright a while ago.
David, could you please help to clarify this a little?

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:37:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Marius Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying vs. teaching

Hi Nick!

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Nick Robinson wrote:
> I'd suggest the best way to make money is to offer teaching classes at
> local schools/institutes/libraries.

That's what I'm going to do in the next semester. The class is going to
begin in September, and it'll be 6 evening with 3*45min each. And I still
haven't made a concept about what to teach exactly. :-/

> Don't forget to hand out PR sheets for your local origami society...

.. which is nonexistant. My part of Germany seems to be a kind of black
hole, origamically speaking. The next OD member is 150km away.

> Why not put together a small home-made photocopied booklet of
> your/traditional designs & sell that along with some paper instead??

That's a problem as well -- I have virtually no original designs.  :)

> *** Origami is sharing, not selling! ***

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! :-)

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 11:33:17 -0300 (ADT)
From: Dino Andreozzi <andreozzi.a@botkyrka.mail.telia.com>
Subject: Re: I'm new!

Kyle S. Heyman wrote:
>
> Hey, I just subscribed today! I'm 12 years old, a male caucasian, and I
> live in painesville, Ohio. I am looking for www addresses of easy, but
> neat, dollar bill diagrams. If you have any, please let me know!

Hi Kyle,
I have a folding diagram of a bull from Perry Bailey (made with a
dollar) on my home page. The URL is:
http://hem.passagen.se/dion/foldiag.html

Happy folding

Dino





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:13:30 -0300 (ADT)
From: Jin Lin <jlche3@student.monash.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Postscript format - Rose

>         You've read my mind exactly! I downloaded the crystalized rose
> instead of the other one. Anyway, how is the crystalized rose different from
> the other roses? I haven't tried it yet, but it looks like I'll need OFTC
> (which I have) as a reference and replace some steps with the ones outlined
> in the diagram?

        Umm, tessellation, as far as I can understand it, means that the same
design is repeated over and over again and they fit into each
other....you know, like a honeycomb is a tessellation of hexagons? It's
also called crystalization because structures in crystals are arranged
like that (forgot which structure)
        I haven't tried the tessellation either, but you probably won't need
OTFC for it. As far as I can understand it, it's also called 'twist
origami' because you do all the creases first and then twist it into
shape, so that's probably what you have to do.
        Someone posted URL for a picture of the rose tessellation:
http://users.aol.com/valerivann/jackson/jackson.html

        Hope this helped.

Jin Lin





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:00:26 -0300 (ADT)
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@compuserve.com>
Subject: Fluff? Resource? or what?

It seems to me the list goes through phases in which
there are larger proportions of chit-chat, non-origami
related material (though some of this relates to printing,
diagraming, preservation etc. so is of interest to *some*
members). There are also "slow" times, and this is one
of them, because the OUSA Convention in New York involves
many of the most active list members.

Tom Hull, David Lister (our list "historian", who writes
wonderful essays on all aspects of origami) are just a
couple of members who are at the Convention.

(Convention "reports" will start showing up here Sunday
night and Monday...)

Also its summer, and the membership of the list tends to
change as people leave schools and businesses, change
email addresses or temporarily lose email access. (Though
this is becoming less common than in the past.)

Also, most of the "graphical" origami action has moved to
web sites, with the list as the main guide book as members
post notices about new or changed sites.

Still, there continues to be a lot of substance here:
book reviews and corrections, help with difficult diagrams,
discussions about design and new techniques. Personally,
I've got nearly 15 Mbytes of just the messages that I found
interesting over the years...

--valerie
Valerie Vann
75070.304@compuserve.com





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:48:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: Paul & Jan Fodor <origami@aloha.net>
Subject: Re: Making vs. buying vs. teaching

Sebastian Marius Kirsch wrote:
>
> Hi Nick!
>
> On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Nick Robinson wrote:
> > I'd suggest the best way to make money is to offer teaching classes at
> > local schools/institutes/libraries.
>
> That's what I'm going to do in the next semester. The class is going to
> begin in September, and it'll be 6 evening with 3*45min each. And I still
> haven't made a concept about what to teach exactly. :-/
>
> > Don't forget to hand out PR sheets for your local origami society...
>
> .. which is nonexistant. My part of Germany seems to be a kind of black
> hole, origamically speaking. The next OD member is 150km away.
>
> > Why not put together a small home-made photocopied booklet of
> > your/traditional designs & sell that along with some paper instead??
>
> That's a problem as well -- I have virtually no original designs.  :)
>
> > *** Origami is sharing, not selling! ***
>
> Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! :-)
>
> Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de

Yoohoo Sebastian,  Where is that quote "Origami is sharing, not selling"
coming from?  I'm the "seller" of origami in Hawaii.  My booth at the
fairs is advertized as "'Origami' by Jan".  People come to see the
origami for sale and of course some/many do buy it.  People at times ask
for dolphins, dragons, whales which I don't make for lack of time or
because it can't be made to wear but I've been wanting to carry the
"real models".

Nick, if you'd want to take a chance, I'd love to try and sell a few
models that people have asked about.  People are aware that it is
reproducable but how many can make them?  There are many collectors that
look for the animal they collect in different media...origami included.
Interested?

Aloha, Jan





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:52:31 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Selling Origami (was:Re: reply/subject="Dear Mr. Montroll")

Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch> sez

>Well, most artists do this: They sell their art, they reproduce
>other people's art, and they teach others how to make art.

1 & 3 are fine, but 2 is the problem area. Firstly, the original creator
rarely gets anything like a fair return, much less a guarantee that the
quality of the work will do his/her design/reputation any justice.

Secondly, I would challenge most amateur folders to come up with a (say)
Brill fold that was anywhere close to the creators work - most of the
origami I've seen for sale is of a poor standard & hardly worth buying.
Earrings and Xmas decorations are one thing, living, breathing origami
is another...

Thirdly, it shows a poor attitude towards perhaps an important ethic of
origami, that of sharing. It's hard to reconcile "I want money for this
fold" with "come to a local meeting & I'll teach you how to make this
for free".

Finally,(!) if people are so in need of cash, I would have thought there
are far easier ways of making a few bucks. It's all too easy to knock up
a few impressive folds & flog them at a local craft fair, but the money
you'll make in no way recognises the time you may have taken.

willing to discuss & recognising different opinons are valid,

Nick Robinson

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.cheesypeas.demon.co.uk - all new look!
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk - now with real Audio clips!





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:26:18 -0300 (ADT)
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@compuserve.com>
Subject: PDF format & Word 97

Laurie,

Does Word97 also let you add all the bells and whistles
to the PDF files as Acrobat does? I mean the thumbnails,
document descriptions, setting the viewer format when
the document opens, adding comments, combining PDF's into
a single document, etc?

Also, does Word just output PDF files, or can it convert
Postscript files to PDF, as the full Acrobat package does?

--valerie
Valerie_Vann@compuserve.com





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:26:44 -0300 (ADT)
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@compuserve.com>
Subject: Yoshizawa Books & Folding/Selling

Pat slider & Sebastian Kirsch commenting on:

<< not everything
<< photographed is even diagrammed
[in Yoshizawa books]

I found that disappointing, too, with my first
Yoshizawa book, but after studying the photos and
thinking about it, I concluded that even with
diagrams, nothing I folded was going to look like
Yoshizawa's models, and I'd bet that he never makes
two alike anyway. The marriage of paper and technique
is too individual, each one is a little sculputural
work of art.

In the same vein I found the remarks about being willing
to buy a Yoshizawa model amusing: the message that started
that thread was about someone getting permission from
John Montroll to fold John's models and sell them. While
the resulting models might be saleable, by no stretch of
the imagination could they be considered "John Montroll
Origami works". The monetary value of a model actually
folded by the designer/artist is in a different league
from that of some model someone folds from Yoshizawa or
Montroll diagrams!

(I've long wondered why OUSA doesn't allow models to be
sold during the Convention fund raising auction, even
apparently models contributed by the designers. Maybe it
is to avoid a situation where one famous folder's model
sold for a lot more than another's...)

Back to Yoshizawa: The diagrams also in my opinion tend
to be somewhat suggestive and sketchy, and don't include
the shaping and rounding that make his so realistic. He
also seems to use heavy perhaps handmade paper that stands
up to a lot of shaping and manipulation.

I've concluded that the best way to approach Yoshizawa
books is as inspiration and as the partial and necessarily
not wholly satisfactory attempt to document the highly
individual creative work of a master artist. I like to
look at the photos, and enjoy the variations they show:
the families of foxes of all ages in various life-like
positions, the subtle variations of birds, and a lot of
the whimsical even.

I folded a Yoshisawa monkey for the OUSA/Museum Holiday
Tree last year, then did two more. Each time I got intrigued
by the process, lost track of the diagram step, made some
"mistakes", and ended up with 3 very different individual
monkeys. It was great fun.

--valerie
Valerie_Vann@compuserve.com





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:04:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch>
Subject: Re: Selling Origami

Nick Robinson wrote:
NR>Firstly, the original creator
NR> rarely gets anything like a fair return, much less a guarantee that
the
NR> quality of the work will do his/her design/reputation any justice.

Ah well, sure. But these things happen. Listen to a busker sing
"I did it my way" on the streets, then listen to the Sex Pistol's
version, and finally get a recording of Frank Sinatra doing it.
Quite a difference in quality and style, but all three versions
can be great in their own way, and they certainly fit the context
in which they are/were performed.
I'm sure the Sex Pistol's version didn't do Sinatra's reputation any
justice, but as long as nobody confuses the Sex Pistols with Frank
Sinatra his reputation stays intact <g>.

The "fair return" is another thing. I do think creators should receive
a return on every of their creations sold, but just how could this be
done?

> Secondly, I would challenge most amateur folders to come up with a (say)
> Brill fold that was anywhere close to the creators work - most of the
> origami I've seen for sale is of a poor standard & hardly worth buying.

This may be true for some origami, but... so what? There obviously is a
market for origami models. There is high-quality origami for sale, and
there's  low-quality origami for sale. If people buy crap it's their
own fault.

> Thirdly, it shows a poor attitude towards perhaps an important ethic of
> origami, that of sharing. It's hard to reconcile "I want money for this
> fold" with "come to a local meeting & I'll teach you how to make this
> for free".

Sharing has nothing to do with ethics!
Models I've given away always got the "Wow! This is incredible!"
reaction, even if I'm a lousy amateur and can't do the creators
justice (I am, and I can't). Most people simply can't imagine
folding these models themselves, and they're not willing to
invest the time it takes to learn these folds (they usually give up
after the "base").
They prefer to get a finished model, and some would be happy to
pay for it. Just like most people can't play an instrument but
still like to listen to music, they'd rather buy the "music" than
not have it at all.
And, there are no local meetings in Switzerland. But we're working at
it!

> willing to discuss & recognising different opinons are valid,

Eeek! A liberal!              ;-)

All the best, Matthias





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 19:45:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: Laurie Bisman <lbisman@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PDF format & Word 97

Valerie wanted to know...

> Does Word97 also let you add all the bells and whistles
> to the PDF files as Acrobat does? I mean the thumbnails,
> document descriptions, setting the viewer format when
> the document opens, adding comments, combining PDF's into
> a single document, etc?
>
> Also, does Word just output PDF files, or can it convert
> Postscript files to PDF, as the full Acrobat package does?

I can't answer those questions at the moment, but I'll take time to read
the manual today or tomorrow and get back to you with the answers.

I know that I can take anything that Word7 can read, and convert it to PDF
and would be surprised if some of the other bells and whistles aren't also
included.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laurie Bisman    lbisman@ihug.co.nz
Web page          http://homepages.ihug.nz.co/~lbisman/index.html
Company           http://www.addlink.ac.nz/Home.htm





Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:57:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Selling Origami (was:Re: reply/subject="Dear Mr. Montroll")

On 28 Jun 97 at 13:52, Nick Robinson wrote:

> Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch> sez
>
> >Well, most artists do this: They sell their art, they reproduce
> >other people's art, and they teach others how to make art.

Well, Nick, I think you've hit on the key points, but [perhaps not
surprisingly] I think there is another side to it all:

> 1 & 3 are fine, but 2 is the problem area. Firstly, the original creator
> rarely gets anything like a fair return, much less a guarantee that the
> quality of the work will do his/her design/reputation any justice.

I think this has little to do with 'selling', per se, but rather
licensing and copyright and such.  There are fields where craftsmen
-respect- the creations of others, and other fields where they do not.
For example, almost everything in the music industry *is* carefully
handled.. either via individual arrangement or through the clearing
houses [BMI and ASCAP in the US], the creators eventually get their due.
Of course, there are folk ripping off the system, but that fault lies
with the pirates/thieves, *NOT* with the whole shebang.

Now, in one sense you're right: there isn't any really accepted type of
'copyright' or other licensing restrictions for origami, and probably
there's little general agreement as to what would make a sensible fee. But
I think the issue should not be "don't do it", but rather "how can we
ensure that the creators get their due".

One simple way to arrange might be to establish the 'tradition' that the
only use one can make of a fold is to make the model for ones own use.
Any public or commercial use of the model would require getting the
permission of the creator [or perhaps copyright holder].  In this, as I
tried to imply by the 'public' part, I'd -include- teaching the fold.  My
view is that getting permission isn't such a big deal, and so the exchange
"can I teach your <whatever> model to the East Overshoe folding
society"... "sure"... doesn't seem like such a hassle.

> Secondly, I would challenge most amateur folders to come up with a (say)
> Brill fold that was anywhere close to the creators work - most of the
> origami I've seen for sale is of a poor standard & hardly worth buying.
> Earrings and Xmas decorations are one thing, living, breathing origami
> is another...

Indeed, but that's a matter of the marketplace.  In every art and
every craft there is a HUGE spectrum of quality and skill represented,
and different customers travel in different circles.  You can buy a $6.95
wrist watch or a $3,200 Rolex --- the existence of the latter on the
market doesn't preclude the possibility of the commercial success of the
former.  ditto for $50 not-so-good paintings versus multi-thousand-dollar
museum pieces. Surely nothing will compare with the million-plus dollar
works you can see at the British Museum or the Metropolitan or the Louvre,
but nonetheless less notworthy [and skilled] artists can find a niche.

> Thirdly, it shows a poor attitude towards perhaps an important ethic of
> origami, that of sharing. It's hard to reconcile "I want money for this
> fold" with "come to a local meeting & I'll teach you how to make this
> for free".

Why do you assume that the two aren't compatible?  I've gone to seminars
where folk have taught musical works.  I can't *perform* it without
permission, but I got taught it [even got sheet music for it],
nonetheless.  Similarly, I don't see that teaching/sharing won't continue
-- it is really quite an orthogonal activity from the craft/selling side.

In fact, that all happens *now*... consider: You surely would not argue
that we would be better off if Ms Fuse and and Messrs Brill and Jackson,
et al, didn't publish their works at all?  Compiling books [even as the
BOS does] and selling them is as much "selling origami" as making little
earrings or some such and selling those, no??  The difference, of course,
is that there is a method in place [via copyrights and royalties] for
compensating the creators.

> Finally,(!) if people are so in need of cash, I would have thought there
> are far easier ways of making a few bucks. It's all too easy to knock up
> a few impressive folds & flog them at a local craft fair, but the money
> you'll make in no way recognises the time you may have taken.

Of course not.  But that's not your or my call to make.  Far as I can
tell, virtually NO ONE on the crafts-for-sale circuit makes much of a
return on their time.  From what I can tell, they do it because it can
make their 'hobby' actually pay a bit.  They carve their wood or knit
their yarn [or fold their paper] because they enjoy doing it, and getting
*paid* for doing it is mostly gravy.

If "best pay per hour" were the criterion, I suspect there would be few
people doing ANYTHING in the arts or crafts, since virtually none of it
pays squat. [the jokes about 'keep your day job' are largely true: you
NEED a 'real job' if you're going to be able to try carving decoys or
dancing/singing in shows or painting or doing hand bookbinding or making
paper or ....].

 /Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--





Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:50:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Marc Kirschenbaum <marckrsh@pipeline.com>
Subject: OrigamiUSA Convention

Dear origami-L,

OrigamiUSA is having a convention now. It is lots of fun. I met really neat
people. Even Yoshizawa is there. I am experiencing the effects of sleep
deprivation. A more coherent report will follow.

Marc





Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:20:49 -0300 (ADT)
From: Mr & Mrs Owen <djowen@pcl.net>
Subject: I'm new and the debates are great!

I was looking for information useful to my son (who had learned to love
Orgami when I was stationed in Japan) and I am lucky to have found you.  MY
subject line says it all.  I'm going to read the fifty or so message each
day to hear the ongoing debate on Subject Lines.  (This only partly tongue
in check.)
Thanks.





Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:39:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: Valerie Vann <valerie_vann@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: PDF format & Word 97

The "Pro" Acrobat package also includes a "printer driver"
that enables PDF output from most other software. That
may be what Work97 is using. I've tried it with Corel Draw 5
and a couple of other programs and it works very well.
I have run into some problems with exotic type faces and
a few things like that not converting properly, but a little
tinkering with Type Manager and the font substitution tables
might fix that. Ususally what I'm trying to make PDFs from
is pretty plain vanilla stuff, so it isn't a problem.

But I do like to add the extras (thumbnails, start up
viewer, etc.) to my PDF's. You can even make them
uneditable is your using the Acrobat Exchange program.

--valerie
Valerie_Vann@compuserve.com
