




Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:55:30 -0300 (ADT)
From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch>
Subject: (NO): lost mail

Hi all,

due to a HD crash my internet provider lost all the not yet
downloaded e-mails of Friday,23 May and Saturday morning, 25 May
(that's today). So if you sent me private e-mail in that period,
please just send it again.

Matthias





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:12:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: Douglas Zander <dzander@solaria.sol.net>
Subject: Re: Cutting Edge

> units they have at Kinkos photocopy shops retail for $250 and up, but I never
> saw a sign that said "For Customer Use Only". If they hassle you, make a
> copy. For less than a dime you can be a customer, too!
>
> Ngay Mai An Toi
>

 When I cut paper at Kinko's I usually go when they are not busy, then I
 just ask if I may cut some paper and they always allow it.  I think if
 you go when they are busy, they will be less likely to say yes.





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:46:48 -0300 (ADT)
From: Robby/Laura/Lisa <morassi@zen.it>
Subject: RE: Pronouncing Fuse/McDonalds folding toy

Wayne wrote:

>I'm not an expert in Japanese,  but I'm quite sure Fuse is pronounced as
>"hoo-say" since F is pronounced as H in Japanese.

Right. You may notice the same ambiguity in other similar Japanese names:
so, for example, the name of the well known origami-math expert Prof.
Humiaki Huzita can be written Fumiaki Fujita as well....

Roberto





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:47:28 -0300 (ADT)
From: Robby/Laura/Lisa <morassi@zen.it>
Subject: Re: Bad Book(s)

>Sorry, but I am in no way related to the famous captain of that name. My
>name is Kirsch, K-i-r-s-c-h, which is german for "cherry". :-)

Alsho a shhhorthandd for "Kirschgeist" or "Kirschwasser", ay delitefuul (hic
!) chshsherry braandhy (burp !).....

Roberto %->





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:47:44 -0300 (ADT)
From: Robby/Laura/Lisa <morassi@zen.it>
Subject: RE: The Magic of Origami...

>>  Does anyone have a
>> copy of the book with the creator credits?  If so, where are they, on
>> each page (if so, WHERE!) or in a table in the back (I can't seem to
>> locate it)?  Am I just unobservant?
>
>I have a copy (paperback), and the credits seem in general to be at the =
>bottom of the pages (bottom left for odd-numbered pages; bottom right =
>for even pages).

I can add that, in my own copy, two sheets of errata/corrige are enclosed to
correct several mistakes throughout the book. Does everybody have this ? If
not, I can provide copies.

Roberto

=========================
Roberto Morassi
Via Palestro 11
51100 PISTOIA
ITALY
tel & fax (+)39-573-20436
E-mail <morassi@zen.it>





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:51:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Kenny1414@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pronouncing Fuse

In a message dated 97-05-24 00:14:10 EDT, you write:

>>I'm not an expert in Japanese,  but I'm quite sure Fuse is pronounced as
>>"hoo-say" since F is pronounced as H in Japanese. ...
>>Wayne
>>
>I'm sorry to have to disagree with you.  It is possible to write the
>sequence ha, hi, hu, he, ho in Japanese style of writing kana in Romaji
>(Roman alphabet). ... The actual pronunction follows the
>older Hepburn style westerners are familiar with:  ha, hi, fu, he, ho.  The
>name of the writer, Husimi, for example, should be pronounced Fushimi.
>The Fu is often very short and not long and pronunced Foo, so that it can
>sound like F'shimi.  But it does not sound like Hooshimi.    The same
>inconsistency is found in Sa, si, su, se, so which should be pronounced sa,
>shi, su, se, so.  Also, ta, ti, tu, te, to in usage sounds like ta, chi,
>tsu, te, to.  It is the attempt to achieve consistency where consistency
>does not exi(s)t that causes the difficulty in pronouncing  some Japanese
>words.  James M. Sakoda

Gentlemen, please excuse me.   I think you're both right.

I am a Sansei, third generation immigrant, born and raised in Hawaii,
and like most Sansei, did not pick up much of the Japanese language.
But my parents were Nisei, and had to learn both English, to get along
n the USA, and Japanese, to speak with their Issei parents.

( I think this is a common third generation phenomenon. After a while,
my parent's generation gave up trying to teach us, and discovered it was
convenient that the kids didn't speak the old language. We could always
tell when the conversations turned to family gossip. The language would
shift to Japanese with inter-mixed English. *sigh*.

My sister eventually took college courses and learned Japanese. )

While I was growing up, the Japanese I heard being used around me was
consistent with Wayne's experience. The romanized FU was pronounced foo.

But one summer, back from college, I happened to hear Daddy pronounce
his friend Fuji's name as a very distinct hoo-jee.

I asked him about this, and discovered that he did not hear the difference
between his pronunciation of F and my F, but did hear a difference between
his F and my H, and he insisted that he was saying Fuji, not Huji.

I think, now, all three sounds were different.

The H sound he used was not exactly the English H, it was aspirated and
sounded like a mix of F and H, like saying H with your mouth formed for F.

(By the way, I have trouble pronouncing a Japanese R, which to me is a
flapped sound between an L and an R. And I also have problems with
both Spanish rolled R's, too.)

I have never seen the consistent Romanization used before, that's
interesting. I think Hawaii uses the Hepburn romanization, and I
remember noticing the consonant mutations, when I tried to learn
the Kana syllabary in a traditional Japanese school one year.

Aloha,

Kenneth Kawamura
kenny1414@aol.com





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:01:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: Amy <ahuang@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Ring of Origami Art

Hi there!

        My name is Amy Huang; I'm the ringmaster of the "Ring of Origami
Art". I run the ONLY webring that connects sites with origami/paper
folding content. You might ask, "What's a webring?" Well, a webring is a
way of connecting sites together on the net by having each site in the
ring display a simple graphic. Webring surfers can choose options such as
"next" to travel to the next site, or "previous" to go to the previous
site and so on.

         I would be honored if anyone with a site about origami would join
this exciting new ring. By joining, you will undoubtedly INCREASE hits to
your site and INCREASE your site's exposure. Also, you will be able to
surf the ring and find other sites like yours containing
origami/paperfolding content. It's a different way to search the net. It's
simple to join. Just follow the steps at the Ring of Origami Art homepage
located at http://www.angelfire.com/la/Lal

        If you have any questions whatsoever, please e-mail me at
ahuang@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca . I'll be happy to answer any concerns you
might have!

        Amy
        Ringmaster of the Ring of Origami Art
        http://www.angelfire.com/la/Lal

            \\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//
            ||                               ||
            ||    ------     Amy Huang                  ||
            ||   ||||||||    ahuang@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca     ||
            ||   ||||||||    http://www.ualberta.ca/~ahuang ||
            ||  /        \                             ||
            ||  |   _    |   Faculty of Pharmacy            ||
            ||  |  |_)   |   University of Alberta          ||
            ||  |  | \   |   Edmonton, Alberta, Canada          ||





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:44:48 -0300 (ADT)
From: Mitsuhiko Ota <otam@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu>
Subject: Only if you really want to know how to pronounce Fuse

In response to the discussion about how to pronounce the Japanese name
romanized as FUSE -

I have been trying to stay away from this discussion because it is not
directly related to origami, and I know that some people have expressed
their reservations about carrying extended discussions on tangential
issues on the list.  But being a linguist and a native speaker of
Japanese, I couldn't help throwing in my two cents worth, so please read
ahead ONLY if you care and really want to know how FUSE is pronounced.
In the discussion below, I will use upper case letters to indicate
spelling, single quotes (' ') for a word in English spelled in the
traditional writing system, and slashes (/ /) for a sound in a language.

Basically, it doesn't make sense to argue whether the first consonant of
FUSE-san's name is the /h/ sound or the /f/ sound in English, or a
mixture of them, because it is none of them.  It is a sound called
voiceless bilabial fricative in linguistic jargon, and it doesn't exist
in English, so the only way we can describe the sound is by giving a
physiological description of how it is produced.  To pronounce this
sound, make a narrow gap between the upper and lower lips while acting
as if to blow out a candle, producing a constriction between the lips.
There is no contact between the lower teeth and the upper lip as in the
pronunciation of the English /f/ sound in 'food.'  Nor are the lips as
apart as they are when producing the English /h/ sound in 'hood.'

Many people have correctly pointed out that in the Tokyo dialect there
is no vowel sound pronounced after this initial consonant.  In this
dialect, there is a phonological rule that deletes (or "devoices") the
vowels /i/ and /u/ sandwiched between two voiceless consonants, which is
the case in FUSE.

Of all the sounds involved in the Japanese pronunciation of FUSE, the
/s/ sound represented by the letter S is the only sound that exists in
English -- that's the initial consonant in 'say.'

The last sound, represented by the letter E in FUSE is close to the
vowel in 'say' but not completely identical.  Most English speakers
"diphthongize" the vowel in 'say'; that is to say, they pronounce it as
if it is a sequence of two short vowels /e/ and /i/.  If you carefully
observe your articulatory gestures in pronouncing 'say,' you may notice
that the middle part of the tongue moves slightly upward as you
pronounce the vowel.  The last vowel in FUSE can be described as the
vowel in 'say' without this extra movement (or the short /i/ sound of
it).

OK, I know that was way too much detail for those who just wanted to
know if FUSE was to be pronounced like the English word 'fuse' or
something else.  I gave the detailed description because it appeared to
me that some people were genuinely interested in knowing the exact
Japanese pronunciation.  But as far as pronouncing Japanese names in an
English conversation is concerned, my personal opinion is that it really
doesn't matter as long as we approximate the pronunciation within the
sound inventory of English.  So we may want to avoid saying 'fyooz,'
but 'foo-say' or 'hoo-say' are the closest you can get without producing
a sound or a sound sequence that doesn't exist in English.  And I think
that's fine.  (Again, that's my personal opinion.  I'm not speaking for
Fuse-san or any other native speakers of Japanese.  But as for myself I
don't expect everyone who doesn't speak Japanese to pronounce my name in
EXACT Japanese phonology unless for some reason they are curious enough
to go through a 20 minute pronunciation drill session)  Of course, it is
a totally different matter if you're trying to learn how to speak
Japanese.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Mitsuhiko Ota
  Georgetown University
  Department of Linguistics
  Washington DC, 20057
  e-mail:otam@gusun.georgetown.edu
  $BB@ED8wI'(J





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:32:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: Oded Streigold <benjic@netvision.net.il>
Subject: NO: Lock picking

Hi!

 I found a nice guide about lock picking at:
gopher://gopher.panix.com:70/11/MIT-Guide

Note: When I downloaded the guide in ZIP format, the guide file was
named
guide.html, and I had to rename it to guide.zip, in order to un-zip it,
though
they may have corrected that by now.

Oded.

benjic@netvision.net.il





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:03:28 -0300 (ADT)
From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
Subject: Re: Ring of Origami Art

Amy wrote:

>My name is Amy Huang; I'm the ringmaster of the "Ring of Origami Art". >I run
     the ONLY webring that connects sites with origami/paper
>folding content. You might ask,"What's a webring?" Well, a webring is a
> way of connecting sites together on the net by having each site in the
> ring display a simple graphic. Webring surfers can choose options such
     >as"next" to travel to the next site, or "previous" to go to the >previous
     site and so on.

The problem here is one of control, control of a large list of names,
all of those who enjoy Origami.  The main purpose of web rings is to
exclude non-members.  There fore to see sites through the "web ring" you
must join.  The main use I have seen web rings used for is software
piracy, it keeps out the non contributers to thier actions, the police
comes to mind.  I did check and as surmised if you go to the site and
click on the next site you get a reference to becoming a member.  If you
wish to become a "Click" of web sites. by all means go ahead, but
realize the consequence, all those who do not want to be put on mailing
lists will no longer have access to your web page.  So be aware.

>I would be honored if anyone with a site about origami would jointhis
     >exciting new ring. By joining, you will undoubtedly INCREASE hits to
> your site and INCREASE your site's exposure. Also, you will be able to
> surf the ring and find other sites like yours containing
> origami/paperfolding content. It's a different way to search the net. >It's>
     simple to join. Just follow the steps at the Ring of Origami Art >homepage
 but first try to access it with out jioning and giving all kinds of
personal information away.  Your names and Addresses are Valuable, to
any of a number of bussinesses.  Say hello to much more junk E-mail.
This is just my opinion, I know there will those who will agree and
those who will disagree, I just wanted to make sure that we all knew the
score.
--
>From pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net

***************************************
* Your Life is only what you make it. *
* so make it good. :?)'               *





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:09:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: MrsCalbash@aol.com
Subject: Only if you really want to know how to pronounce Fuse

Subj:Subj Only if you really want to know how to pronounce Fuse
Date:   97-05-24 16:33:26 EDT
From: otam@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu (Mitsuhiko Ota)

[This email is in a language that your client does not support.]

I really do want to know how to pronounce Fuse, but apparently Japanese is
not the only language I can't do.

Leslie Blanding





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:13:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch>
Subject: (NO): Re: Only if you really want to know how to pronounce Fuse

Mitsuhiko Ota wrote:
>
> In response to the discussion about how to pronounce the Japanese name
> romanized as FUSE -

Well, thanks a lot! It was interesting to read, and it has certainly
cleared up a few thing :-).

Matthias





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:13:26 -0300 (ADT)
From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch>
Subject: (sort of NO): Going to Wuerzburg?

Hi All!

Well, since Jan Polish brought up the subject... who else is going
to the Origami Deutschland Convention in Wuerzburg?
I am, and I know of at least two other origami-l people that I
will meet there (with Jan, it's already three). Plus a well-known
person that is NOT going (dump that wreck of a car and buy
a BICYCICLE, Nick!).
Well, Wuerzburg most likely isn't going to be HUGE, so we
don't have to resort to extreme measures like "Smiley" stickers
to recognize each other. A little folded mouse would do nicely
I guess <g>.

Matthias, no longer losing his mail





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:59:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: Matthias Gutfeldt <Tanjit@bboxbbs.ch>
Subject: (NO):Re: Ring of Origami Art

About the Origami ring Amy Huang suggested, Perry Bailey wrote:
> The problem here is one of control, control of a large list of names,
> all of those who enjoy Origami.  The main purpose of web rings is to
> exclude non-members.  There fore to see sites through the "web ring" you
> must join.

I have to agree with Perry. I went to the site too, and I couldn't
get to the next site in the "ring" because I wasn't a registered "ring
member" and therefore didn't have the required ID code.
If the purpose of this ring was to connect Origami sites on the web
and to provide an easy way to visit these sites, then if failed
completely.
Sorry Amy, but that's the truth:-(. If you could just drop the whole
"membership" stuff, I'm sure your ring could be one of the many places
an Origami enthusiast would want to visit.

Matthias, ringing a bell.





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:25:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
Subject: Re: (NO):Re: Ring of Origami Art

Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:

> Sorry Amy, but that's the truth:-(. If you could just drop the whole
> "membership" stuff, I'm sure your ring could be one of the many places
> an Origami enthusiast would want to visit.
>
> Matthias, ringing a bell.
Now that is an Idea!  if it were not for the registration requirement as
Mathias said it would be a good Idea!
Perry
--
>From pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net

***************************************
* Your Life is only what you make it. *
* so make it good. :?)'               *





Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:35:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: "James M. Sakoda" <James_Sakoda@brown.edu>
Subject: Re: Hell Bank Note for Dollar Bill Folding

>     I have written previously about the use of Hell Bank Note to
>substitute for real dollar bills in  folding dollar bills.  Hell Bank
>Notes are one substitute that I have found to be a satisfactory.  They are
>much lighter and thinner than dollar bills and take creases more easily.
>However, they are also weaker and are subject to easy tearning, unlike
>real dollar bills.  They are referred to as "joss paper" and are related
>to "joss sticks", both of which are burned at funerals and other
>ceremonies.
>     For folding purposes the ideal size of a bill is one whose length is
>2.414 times its width.  The American dollar bill, whose proportion is
>sometimes given as 3 x 7, has a proportion which comes close to this ideal
>number--2.33.  The reason that 2.414 is the ideal number is that when
>opposite corners are folded at a 45 degree angle so that the folded in
>corner reaches the other side, the resulting diamond shape can be folded
>into a bird base.  The short side points are usually too short to be of
>much use, but still on occasion can be made useful by using the stretched
>bird base procedure, as I have done for the giraffe.  I have used this
>diamond shape to fold the six point star,  using the eight point star
>approach which served as the basis for many of the folds in Modern
>Origami.
>     If the bill is shorter than ideal, one can still use this procedure
>by first folding the long diagonal of a bill and then fold it in half to
>find the position of the two shorter corners.  This results in the
>folded-in corner not quite reaching the other side.  This is usually not
>visible because the folded in corner usually remains hidden and unused,
>but it does bother the folding procedure because of the unevenness of the
>edge of he two layers of paper.  Hence the desire for an ideal paper with
>proportions close to those of the American dollar bill.  To this end I
>have taken the hell bank note that I had found and reduced the width so
>that the ideal proportion would be achieved.
>     Recently I have found hell bank notes which were 2.5 x 6 inches,
>slightly larger than the hell bank note that I had previously found, and
>was astounded to find that it was almost the exact dimension of the ideal
>bank note--2.4 instead of 2.414.  It was also possible to mark off
>segments in half or quarter inches to divide the length into 24 units and
>the width into 10 units for box pleat folding, which I have been
>experimenting with to fold an insect with six legs and a head and body.  I
>also found that by taking a stack of bills and fanning them out so that
>one one edge of all of the sheets showed, it was possible to mark many
>sheets at the same time.  This avoids using folding methods to fold the
>bill into thirds or fifths, which weakens it.  One obvious thought here is
>that when one is cutting paper for a dollar bill fold, the ideal size is
>2.5 x 6 inches, which is only slightly smaller than a real Ameridan dollar
>bill.
>     The shop where I found the ideal size bank notes was at the Little
>China Town Super Market on 77 Reservoir Avenue in Providence, R. I.  Their
>phone number is (401) 461-3590. Some local Chinese markets in your city
>can be visited to see if they carry hell bank notes of this size.   I
>would strongly recommend suppliers of origami paper to try to stock this
>item.  I plan to teach dollar bill folding at the Black Ship Festival in
>Newport, R.I. and also at the New Hork convention and have bought enough
>for my classes, there will be need for students to be able to buy a
>package for their own use.  On the printed label the item is referred to
>as CHEE SHING #31101  Joss Paper N.W. 2 oz. MADE IN CHINA.  There are also
>Chinese characters, which I cannot translate and will not attempt to
>reproduce here.
>     This may be a good time to discuss the acceptability of promoting an
>ideal dollar bill.  When one considers that the sizes of bills in
>different  countries can differ, settling upon a hell bank note used for
>burning in ceremonies, but with ideal folding properties,  may be a wise
>course of action.
>     Details on the ideal dollar bill and diagrams of some dollar bill
>folds can be found  in the web site set up by my son Bill.  James M.
>Sakoda, origami dollar bill foldings in pdf form:  http://idt.net/~kittyv
>

New Information:  Since I wrote this I tried a few  new batch and to my
surprise found that it measured 6-1/8 x 2-5/8 inches or close to it.  This
is the size of an American dollar bill, and can be treated as a dollar
bill.  Because of the possible variations in the hell bank notes it is best
not to assume its exact measurement.  To fold into half, quarters, eighths,
16ths, 32nds one simply needs to fold in half, and each smaller section in
half again and again.  For folding into into 12ths or 24ths, it is
necessary to learn to fold the entire sheet or a smaller segment into
thirds.  For a long length I usually fold into fourths  first and then
divide the second segment into thirds by eye, and use that as a basis for
folding the remaining fourths into thirds.  A similar procedure can be used
to fold into fifths.

Resizing:  To resize into an ideal size in which the length is 2.4 times
the width one can resort to trimming to 6 x 2.5 inches size, which involves
some waste of paper.   I am trying a new method of resizing which avoids
calculations The opposite diagonals are folded to find the line that cuts
the diagonal in half.  One corner is folded over to the opposite side,
folding from the end corner to the end of the crossing center line.  If the
corner does not meet the opposite side, it indicates that the width needs
to be cut down.  (If the end goes beyond the side it is the overhanding
side that should be trimmed.)   Instead of trying to fold to the side
starting at the end corner, fold the corner in so that the end is parallel
to the opposite side.  The gap along the long end indicates the amount by
which the paper bill needs to be trimmed.  But since the position of the
one of the ends has changed, refold the ends, using the new position at one
end which is changed by the trimming that is to be performed.  The second
trial should end up with the folded in corner reaching the  trim line.
After one sheet is trimmed correctly it can be used to set up the paper
cutter to trim the others.  This substitutes folding procedures for
measurements, which can become intricate.
James M. Sakoda





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:16:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: Malachi Bubba Johnson Brown <MBB3892@tntech.edu>
Subject: Re: Ring of Origami Art

> From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
> The problem here is one of control, control of a large list of names,
> all of those who enjoy Origami.  The main purpose of web rings is to
> exclude non-members.  There fore to see sites through the "web ring" you
> must join.  The main use I have seen web rings used for is software
> piracy, it keeps out the non contributers to thier actions, the police
> comes to mind.  I did check and as surmised if you go to the site and
> click on the next site you get a reference to becoming a member.  If you
> wish to become a "Click" of web sites. by all means go ahead, but
> realize the consequence, all those who do not want to be put on mailing
> lists will no longer have access to your web page.  So be aware.

Umm...  I hate to seem rude, but it seems you don't know what a web ring is.
In my experience (I have a page which is a memeber of a web ring), Web Rings do
not try to keep people or sites out, they are simply a way to organize
"keyword" on a search engine, if there is a web ring about that topic then you
can simply go from one page on the ring to another in order and not have to
keep going back to your search engine page.  Other means of finding pages are
still useful, but a web ring just provide a quick way to find liks oon the same
topic.  Not to mention usually higher quality, many web pages which have a
keyword in a search don't actually have any information about that topic, but
web ring links are usually on topic becuase they had to ask to be added to the
ring.

Please explain to me how this takes advantage of anyone.

> > origami/paperfolding content. It's a different way to search the net.
> > It's simple to join. Just follow the steps at the Ring of Origami Art
> > homepage
>  but first try to access it with out jioning and giving all kinds of
> personal information away.  Your names and Addresses are Valuable, to
> any of a number of bussinesses.  Say hello to much more junk E-mail.
> This is just my opinion, I know there will those who will agree and
> those who will disagree, I just wanted to make sure that we all knew the
> score.

Also, you don't have to join anything to *use* the web ring, you just have to
have an internet connection and a browser.

The only real limitation to a web ring is the number of sites that have joined.
For a site to join it just takes a few minutes of the webmaster's attention and
then they are part of the ring.  No junk mail, no score of any kind.

Where do you get your information?

I don't mean to be attacking, but I don't want this web ring, about one of my
favorite interests, to fail simply because someone didn't do their research
before opening their mouth.

Addressing problems that some people have had with this web ring:
The web ring join page is mainly for people who want to add sites to the ring,
the first set of url's is just an example of what the web ring section should
look like after it has been added.  At the very bottom of the "Ring of Origami
Art" page is the actual set of links which work.  (Note that there are only two
sites that have been added, one being the join site:
http://www.angelfire.com/la/Lal/index.html)  If you go to this bottom section
and select the "next site" link it will work perfectly.

Just trying to clear up some misconceptions.

  Malachi B-J Brown                --><--               mbb3892@tntech.edu
                      http://gemini.tntech.edu/~mbb3892/
           Sects!  Sects!  Sects!  Is that all Monks think about?





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:42:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: Amy <ahuang@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re: Ring of Origami Art

Hi there,

        I have to agree with what the following person wrote. A webring is
just a way of connecting sites on the net. *Anyone* can surf the webring.
At the moment, my ring only contains 2 sites, so that's why you will only
see 2 sites, but keep in mind I *just* started this ring the other night.
I'm hoping that more origami sites will join the ring and that way when
people surf the ring, you will see more origami sites. If you are still
unsure of how a webring works or would like more information, try going to
http://www.webring.org . This is the official webring site where I started
up this ring. Anyone who wants to start a webring can do so by going here
and finding more information. I actually own another ring, The Animation
Ring, located at http://members.tripod.com/~Lal_ . I've found it very
satisfying and successful, so for that reason and my interest in origami,
I created another ring - which is this one. The Animation Ring has
connected a variety of animation sites around the net and if you like, you
can "test" the ring by surfing through it and finding sites within the
ring. If you still have questions, please e-mail me about them and I will
try to answer them to the best of my ability.

 On Sun, 25
May 1997, Malachi Bubba Johnson Brown wrote:

> > From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
> > The problem here is one of control, control of a large list of names,
> > all of those who enjoy Origami.  The main purpose of web rings is to
> > exclude non-members.  There fore to see sites through the "web ring" you
> > must join.  The main use I have seen web rings used for is software
> > piracy, it keeps out the non contributers to thier actions, the police
> > comes to mind.  I did check and as surmised if you go to the site and
> > click on the next site you get a reference to becoming a member.  If you
> > wish to become a "Click" of web sites. by all means go ahead, but
> > realize the consequence, all those who do not want to be put on mailing
> > lists will no longer have access to your web page.  So be aware.
>
> Umm...  I hate to seem rude, but it seems you don't know what a web ring is.
> In my experience (I have a page which is a memeber of a web ring), Web Rings
     do
> not try to keep people or sites out, they are simply a way to organize
> references to the same topic.  Instead of having to check every reference to
> "keyword" on a search engine, if there is a web ring about that topic then you
> can simply go from one page on the ring to another in order and not have to
> keep going back to your search engine page.  Other means of finding pages are
> still useful, but a web ring just provide a quick way to find liks oon the
     same
> topic.  Not to mention usually higher quality, many web pages which have a
> keyword in a search don't actually have any information about that topic, but
> web ring links are usually on topic becuase they had to ask to be added to the
> ring.

        This is true. Anyone can surf a webring - try it. The reason why
there is a reference to joining a ring is because webrings are usually
open to sites who would like to join. Becoming a member only means that
your site will be added to the ring. This means that when anyone surfs the
ring - by clicking "next" or "previous" or what not, the sites within the
ring are those that are displayed. A ring is just a collection of sites
which are "connected" to each other by a similar graphic displayed on each
site and a way's of getting from one site to the next. The ring that I'm
putting forth is trying to unite origami sites across the net. It is open
to anyone wiht an origami site on the net. By uniting origami sites, I'm
hoping that this will offer any surfer a different way to find origami
sites instead of search engines. It's creative and innovative and all
origami sites can "share" in this respect. Even by just operating my
existing ring (The Animation Ring), I've found so many different animation
sites that I would not otherwise find from search engines and what not. I
often "surf" webrings for this reason because I never know what I will
get.

 > > Please explain to me how this takes advantage of anyone.
>

        Webrings *don't* take advantage of anyone. As I said before, they
just provide a different way of surfing. Any personal information you
submit when joining the webring only includes your homepage URL, site
title, e-mail
address, and a password (this is for ring members to add other sites to
the ring). This information is necessary because in order to add a site to
the ring, you need to know the site URL so that when people surf the ring,
they can get from one site to another! Anyway, all of this information is
confidential, and I am a very responsible ringmaster. I don't send out
chain mails or anything like that, and nor does the webring. Ring members
are only e-mailed for notification that they've been added to the queue of
the ring or added for certain. The only time I would e-mail ring members
is if there is a site URL change for the ring ...but I doubt this will
happen. Anyway, if you question anything that I say, perhaps you can try
asking someone in a ring and what his/her experience has been. You can try
a random site in The Animation Ring and e-mail that person about being a
part of my ring.

> > > origami/paperfolding content. It's a different way to search the net.
> > > It's simple to join. Just follow the steps at the Ring of Origami Art
> > > homepage
> >  but first try to access it with out jioning and giving all kinds of
> > personal information away.  Your names and Addresses are Valuable, to
> > any of a number of bussinesses.  Say hello to much more junk E-mail.
> > This is just my opinion, I know there will those who will agree and
> > those who will disagree, I just wanted to make sure that we all knew the
> > score.
>
> Also, you don't have to join anything to *use* the web ring, you just have to
> have an internet connection and a browser.

        Agreed. If this wasn't true, how could people surf the ring if
they were non-members?
>
> The only real limitation to a web ring is the number of sites that have
     joined.
> For a site to join it just takes a few minutes of the webmaster's attention
     and
> then they are part of the ring.  No junk mail, no score of any kind.

        I can assure you I am fairly responsible in maintaining a
webring:) Just ask some of my ring members in The Animation Ring.
>
> Where do you get your information?
>
> I don't mean to be attacking, but I don't want this web ring, about one of my
> favorite interests, to fail simply because someone didn't do their research
> before opening their mouth.
>
>
> Addressing problems that some people have had with this web ring:
> The web ring join page is mainly for people who want to add sites to the ring,
> the first set of url's is just an example of what the web ring section should
> look like after it has been added.  At the very bottom of the "Ring of Origami
> Art" page is the actual set of links which work.  (Note that there are only
     two
> sites that have been added, one being the join site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/la/Lal/index.html)  If you go to this bottom section
> and select the "next site" link it will work perfectly.
>
>
> Just trying to clear up some misconceptions.
>
>   Malachi B-J Brown

        Thanks for clearing it up:) Anyway, I have joined many webrings at
my main page (Amy's Animation Area - http://www.ualberta.ca/~ahuang ). I
joined them because I felt webrings have been very successful for me in
increasing hits to my site. I often surf webrings when search engines
don't satisfy. TAke a look at my webrings collection at my main page. The
direct link to my webrings collection is at
http://www.ualberta.ca/~ahuang/webrings.html . Learn more about webrings
..you will find that they really aren't all that threatening!

        Amy

            \\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//
            ||                               ||
            ||    ------     Amy Huang                  ||
            ||   ||||||||    ahuang@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca     ||
            ||   ||||||||    http://www.ualberta.ca/~ahuang ||
            ||  /        \                             ||
            ||  |   _    |   Faculty of Pharmacy            ||
            ||  |  |_)   |   University of Alberta          ||
            ||  |  | \   |   Edmonton, Alberta, Canada          ||





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:37:18 -0300 (ADT)
From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
Subject: Re: Ring of Origami Art

Malachi Bubba Johnson Brown wrote:
>
> > From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
> > The problem here is one of control, control of a large list of names,
> > all of those who enjoy Origami.  The main purpose of web rings is to
> > exclude non-members.  There fore to see sites through the "web ring" you
> > must join.  The main use I have seen web rings used for is software
> > piracy, it keeps out the non contributers to thier actions, the police
> > comes to mind.  I did check and as surmised if you go to the site and
> > click on the next site you get a reference to becoming a member.  If you
> > wish to become a "Click" of web sites. by all means go ahead, but
> > realize the consequence, all those who do not want to be put on mailing
> > lists will no longer have access to your web page.  So be aware.
>
> Umm...  I hate to seem rude, but it seems you don't know what a web ring is.

My apologies but I do know what a web ring is, I have access to several,
and as a result I started to recieve junk E-mail,  I apologize If I have
offended your sensibilities, but none the less did you try to acces the
web ring, did it give you full access with out requiring personal
information which can be sold?  before you correct me I suggest you make
the trial.  As to were I learned about web ring and the liike I believe
I will take the 5th, though it was some time ago, almost another
lifetime when I went be psuedonym on line.

> In my experience (I have a page which is a memeber of a web ring), Web Rings
     do
> not try to keep people or sites out, they are simply a way to organize
> references to the same topic.  Instead of having to check every reference to
> "keyword" on a search engine, if there is a web ring about that topic then you
> can simply go from one page on the ring to another in order and not have to
> keep going back to your search engine page.  Other means of finding pages are
This is true ......if you are willing to divulge personal information,
and forgive me for this but anyone who thinks information is not of
value is being naive.  It is the one commodity that is allways in
demand.

> still useful, but a web ring just provide a quick way to find liks oon the
     same
> topic.  Not to mention usually higher quality, many web pages which have a
> keyword in a search don't actually have any information about that topic, but
> web ring links are usually on topic becuase they had to ask to be added to the
> ring.
>
> Please explain to me how this takes advantage of anyone.
Very simply, it excludes all of those who do not wish to divulge
personal information on the internet, Many of us enjoy being able to
browse through all of the wonderful web pages of origami on the net, I
know that I do, but not at the cost of my privacy.  If this is not an
issue to you then I urge you to join many many web rings.  Alas I fear I
willl not.  My life and my privacy are of the utmost importance to me.
> > > origami/paperfolding content. It's a different way to search the net.
> > > It's simple to join. Just follow the steps at the Ring of Origami Art
> > > homepage
> >  but first try to access it with out jioning and giving all kinds of
> > personal information away.  Your names and Addresses are Valuable, to
> > any of a number of bussinesses.  Say hello to much more junk E-mail.
> > This is just my opinion, I know there will those who will agree and
> > those who will disagree, I just wanted to make sure that we all knew the
> > score.
I think my statement stands,  I feel we do not need to give up our
privacy to find wonderful sites on the net, if you doubt this go to
Joseph Wu's page and check out the links.  Also it may not have occured
to you but in doing this action you eliminate such web pages as Zack
Browns underground page, While I realize this may seem a plus to purient
of mind, it also is a way to sanitize and eliminate the works and
opinions of those with whom you are in disagreement.  The 1st amendment
while not cover such thing in the letter of its law, the spirit will be
trampled under foot.

> Also, you don't have to join anything to *use* the web ring, you just have to
> have an internet connection and a browser.
Wrong, to get access to use a ring requires membership, at least the one
in question does if you doubt me put it to the trial, I did.  Did you do
so before your rebutal????
> The only real limitation to a web ring is the number of sites that have
     joined.
> For a site to join it just takes a few minutes of the webmaster's attention
     and
> then they are part of the ring.  No junk mail, no score of any kind.
This point isn't even worthy of debate.
> Where do you get your information?
>From prior experience in which I will not divulge going back to the 80's
up to the present day.  I learned my leason, with the amounts of junk
email I recieved, not to mention telephone solicitations and snail mail
in quantities to stagger the imagination,  while some junk mail is good
to remind one he is still among the living an excess becomes a pain.
> I don't mean to be attacking, but I don't want this web ring, about one of my
> favorite interests, to fail simply because someone didn't do their research
> before opening their mouth.
Read the line above and then repeat the line above it.
> Addressing problems that some people have had with this web ring:
> The web ring join page is mainly for people who want to add sites to the ring,
> the first set of url's is just an example of what the web ring section should
> look like after it has been added.  At the very bottom of the "Ring of Origami
> Art" page is the actual set of links which work.  (Note that there are only
     two
> sites that have been added, one being the join site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/la/Lal/index.html)  If you go to this bottom section
> and select the "next site" link it will work perfectly.
>
> Just trying to clear up some misconceptions.
I did earlier today, it simply inform me that I did not have an acount
and must needs sign up.  If what you say is true then it was added after
my origional email,  still what does it give you but links just as on
any other site.

If I offend in my retoric please forgive, for my intentions are good,
too often I see this happen.  a nice system of bbs's or web page that
suddenly decide to cut out any one who is not a contributer, of prudct,
be it information or files, or diagrams or pictures.  the principle is
the same, do we wish to include or do we wish to exclude, this is the
primary question, and I deem it a good one.  I will now retire from my
soap box and not address this issue again, either in debate or
disscusion, all I feel the need to say I have said.  Feel free to atack
or defend my possition, I have staed it for the record and now leave it
to others to decide.  I apologhize for this lengthy letter, It will not
happen again on this subject, at least not publicly.  as to where I get
my Knowlege, not that it will or should mean anything to any one on this
server, I once used the Handle of Kerry Dale(and no No one is looking
for my sobrique.
Perry
>From pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net

***************************************
* Your Life is only what you make it. *
* so make it good. :?)'               *





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:49:48 -0300 (ADT)
From: Perry Bailey <pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net>
Subject: Re: Ring of Origami Art

Ok I will retract my statement about member ship being required, either
when i check origionaly the linkages were crossed, or have since been
changed, Either way I withdraw my primary objection to the web ring,
though still think I prefer doing things the way I have been.  and I did
check both the top link and the one at the bottom of the page
origionaly.  C'est ls vie  perhaps my objections were hasty but not
without cause.  I hope this does not become a venture to regret.

--
>From pbailey@mtayr.heartland.net

***************************************
* Your Life is only what you make it. *
* so make it good. :?)'               *





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 05:50:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: candice bradley/daniel byrne <candice@samara.co.zw>
Subject: origami nightmares?

I would try the webring but my internet provider's web server (in
Harare) is down again.  Unfortunately the email server is not down, so I
got to witness one origami-ite flaming another.  Shame.  A very wise
friend of mine -- oddly, a professor -- has learned never to flame
anyone in any context.  "Let a thousand flowers bloom," he says.  Okay,
so he's not very original in his use of the English language.  He
doesn't fold either, but he edits a neat journal that makes for good
folding paper.

Let a thousand flowers (or web rings) bloom.

Candice Bradley in Harare, Zimbabwe





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:14:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: farley@spont.com (Tom & Sandy Farley)
Subject: Ring of Origami Art

Hi Amy,
        I went to look at you origami art pages expecting to get quick
links to a series of origami sites, but found that I kept looping back to
parts of your page on how to add a site to the ring.  It is similar to the
set-up for developing a Kiwanis Club web-site only our KITE web-site
provides templates for a club to fill in for a six-page cycle [or
mini-ring] of pages  linked through the division site to neighboring clubs
and through Kiwanis International to clubs around the world.  I do the
pages for two small clubs now and on each have a link to KITE for Kiwanians
who want to know how to get their clubs on line, but that is not the main
purpose of the club pages.
        I suggest that first thing at the top of Ring of Origami Art you
put the real links into that ring followed by a simple line like 'If you
have an origami page to add onto the ring, come back here and I'll show you
how easy it is to do that.'  You could even put those instructions on a new
page called something like 'How to add your site' so that those who just
want to find the origami don't think they have to register something and
start trying to add a site to the ring by mistake.
         Web-Rings are great for a small movement or focused interest that
has no central organization to maintain a definative set of links as
Kiwanis has.  To see what happens as a link site grows look at
www.quaker.org which Russ Nelson started several years ago as a public
service and still runs all by himself.
        Tom

Tom & Sandy Farley, farley@spont.com -- http://www.spont.com/index.htm
Spontaneous Combustion Storytellers & Writers -- EarthLight Magazine
Quaker-Y e-mail list for Quaker Youth -- Palo Alto Friends Meeting (Quakers)
Redwood City Farmers Market -- Redwood City & Bayshore Kiwanis Clubs





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 07:03:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Kenny1414@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ring of Origami Art

To Amy Huang, Perry Bailey, and Malachi Bubba Johnson Brown, c/o origami-l

Aloha,

I just saw the flurry of messages on origami-l about the ring new ring in
particular, and rings in general.

I had heard about web rings, and understood what Amy said she was doing. I
also
understand Perry's reservations, and appreciate him/her checking out the
ring, and
then re-checking it, and posting an apology.

Thank you, all, for a very civilized discussion.

I'm sending the rest of my comments privately, rather than burden origami-l.

Aloha,
Kenneth Kawamura
kenny1414@aol.com





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:26:55 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Kirsch)
Subject: Re: (sort of NO): Going to Wuerzburg?

Hi Matthias!

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
> Well, since Jan Polish brought up the subject... who else is going
> to the Origami Deutschland Convention in Wuerzburg?

<hand state="raised"> Here! </hand> I am going. This is going to be my
first OD convention, so I'll be grateful for every familiar name.

> I am, and I know of at least two other origami-l people that I
> will meet there (with Jan, it's already three).

Who is the other one, since I know of only one other member of the list
who is going?

> Well, Wuerzburg most likely isn't going to be HUGE, so we
> don't have to resort to extreme measures like "Smiley" stickers
> to recognize each other. A little folded mouse would do nicely
> I guess <g>.

A mouse shouldn't be too much of a problem, but how do you fold the ball?
Guess I'll have to make one of Heinz' Sphere94 from lametta. :-)

> Matthias, no longer losing his mail

5 days till Wuerzburg!

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:22:52 -0300 (ADT)
From: skirsch@t-online.de (Sebastian Kirsch)
Subject: Introduction

Hi!

I have already written a few messages, and I think that it's about time to
introduce myself.

I'm 16 years old, and I'm living in Germany, as you can see from my mail
address, in a small town of about 1600 inhabitants.

I've been doing origami for quite a while now, it must be about 7 or 8
years now. My mother bought my first book, one of those wretched books by
Zulal Ayture-Scheele, and started folding with me. Soon she didn't
understand the instructions anymore, so I had to help her. And after a
while it became too tedious for me to understand the instructions myself
and teach her at the same time, so I worked my way through the rest of the
book by myself. :-)

Unfortunately, after that first book, the interest in origami wore off a
bit because I couldn't find any books on the subject.

And then I really got started again two years ago when I saw a message on
usenet (maus.rec.buecher, to be precise) stating: "Does anyone know
origami books similar to Engel: "Folding the Universe"?" I didn't know the
Engel book then, but I thought I'd respond anyway. The sender of the
message was Mathias Maul. I quickly discovered that the models he was
talking about were not at all like the ones I was used to.

Mathias lives about 150km from me, so I visited him and saw for the first
time what I spend whole days with now: Peter Engel's Kangaroo, Montroll's
Pelican, his Ground Beetle and others.

Mathias also told me about Origami Deutschland, and I soon became a
member.

Perhaps I should also tell you about a few models I like. My taste is
rather diverse, but with a strong focus on complex models.

- Lang's Hermit Crab: This is my favourite model. But I also like Lang's
other models, eg. his Blackdevil Angler, his insects, or the earlier works
like the cuckoo clock. (When is "Origami Design" to come out?)

- Neal Elias Models: eg. his Prom Date (famously known as The Last Dance),
his Bird Man, his Buddha etc. It's a pity that so little of his work is
properly diagrammed. (Maybe I should do something about that? :-) )

- Herman van Goubergen's Cat: This is a wonderful model, but it takes much
practice before you can get it right.

- Heinz Strobl's Sphere94: An almost perfect sphere, folded from ticker
tape. In general, I like folding from ticker tape. (My first model, a 3D
puzzle, is folded from ticker tape.)

- Alex Bateman's Square Dance: Of Alex' tesselation, I have only folded
his Square Dance because it is the only one that is based on squares. All
the others are based on eqilateral triangles and require dividing the
sides into thirds, which I don't like/find too tedious.

- Some (few) Yoshizawa Models, eg. his Bat and his Camel. These only come
out really good if wet-folded.

There are also all-time favourites like Philip Noble's FlexiCube oder Jeff
Beynon's Spring-into-Action. I also like folding geometric or modular
models every once in a while.

Yours, Sebastian               sebastian_kirsch@kl.maus.de,skirsch@t-online.de





Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:49:33 -0300 (ADT)
From: pat slider <slider@stonecutter.com>
Subject: Hamilton catalog now online!

ok, I've listed remaindered books from the Edward R. Hamilton
catalog before, and now I am quite happy to say that they are online.
This is a great resource for cornering origami titles as they go
out-of-print. They list a few newer titles too these
days....overstocks.

Anyway, they have now put their catalog online; although you still
have to order via snail mail and personal check. Worth surfing
here....Their catalog is searcheable and easier to look at than the
big tabloid they send out.

The URL is www.hamiltonbook.com....Among the current remaindered
titles are Gay Merrill Gross's books, "Creative Ideas for
Paperfolding" and "Art of Origami" plus the paperbound version
"Origami Workshop". Also they have a hardbound edition of the
Biddle's "Amazing Origami for Children".

Hard to find  Gross's titles these days; although
sections are about to be reprinted in the title "Paper Creations".
If you have been considering these, I would recommend sending in an
order ASAP. Some Hamilton items are in limited quantities.

Beware! The "Encyclopedia" here is NOT the Jackson title; although it
does contain the contents of his "Classic Origami" titl,e I
believe....some of my favorite models! (This publisher sure likes to
republish this in different forms...must sell well.)

One of the best things about Hamilton's is a flat $3 shipping fee no
matter how many books you order, and a reliable return policy. They
have always been great about cutting a refund check quickly. So
sometimes if I am making an order anyway, I gamble on a few titles
I'm not sure I want. Only cost is the return book-rate shipping.

 (There is another remainder souce online called
bookexpress.com, but they don't seem to have quite as many books as
Hamilton's.)

 pat slider
slider@stonecutter.com

p.s. My server was offline for a few days. If you emailed me and the
message bounced, please send your note again! And on the book review
pages....  I would say that they are 90% done if I don't consider
everything I want to add! I'll put them up "as is" later this
week....
