




Date: 16 Jan 97 14:24:08 EST
From: Valerie Vann <75070.304@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Ian Harrison & Math Origami Article

Due to heavy involvement in the recent (ongoing) severe
flood disaster in northern California, I've not been able
to participate in the origami-l for a few weeks, but did
want to tell all the math/geodesic/geometric/polyhedron
mavens on the list about the following:

Several days ago I received several emails and engaged in
a brief discussion (to be continued soon I hope) with
Ian Harrison, the author of an article in a math journal
about geodesic and polyhedral origami. The article was
briefly discussed here, though Ian didn't know about that.
He apparently turned up my email address when his Web
searcher hit on the origami-l message archives.

Before the article in the journal was mentioned here, I had
heard about Ian's work from Richard Kennedy, who had seen
some of the models at a BOS meeting I think. I've told Ian
about the origami-l, several Web sites (Joseph Wu's, mine, etc)
and mentioned a few origami math mavens' names (e.g.
Tom Hull). I hope he'll join the group. At any rate, I'll
let everybody know what transpires.

(P.S. I didn't get flooded myself, but had relatives & friends
among the evacueesbut the engineering company I work for
was going flat out 18-20 hrs a day trying to deal with
levee failures and flooding amoung our clients, which include
the main flood control agency for the Sacramento metro area,
and the Delta, where we've still got problems going on from
high tides, plus months of repair work. And then the lawsuits
are starting already...)

Valerie Vann
75070.304@compuserve.com





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 14:47 CST
From: jdharris@post.cis.smu.edu (Jerry D. Harris)
Subject: Re: How I Got Started in Origami (long)

Troy -

>Thanks for sharing your diagrams and efforts with the rest of us. Also,
>it is your Gargoyle in Jay
>Ansill's _Mythical Beings_ book isn't it? I haven't done it yet as I just
>got the book recently. It
>looks very well planned out and diagrammed.
        Yes and no.  Yes, it's my invention, and the pictures are traced
from my originals, but the verbal instructions completely obfuscate the
folding procedure and do _not_ follow my originals.  I'm personally unaware
of anyone who has managed to fold the model from Ansill's book's
instructions that has not also seen my originals.  8-C  Thanks for your
comments, though...however, my more recent computerized diagrams completely
outdo the old, hand-drawn ones!  (I don't have computerized ones for the
"Gargoyle," anyway...)  Sorry!  I wish you luck in trying to fold it -- if
you get stuck, fire me an e and I'll see what I can do to clear it up.

Jerry D. Harris                       (214) 768-2750
Dept. of Geological Sciences          FAX:  768-2701
Southern Methodist University
Box 750395                            jdharris@post.smu.edu
Dallas  TX  75275-0395                (Compuserve:  102354,2222)

                                              .--       ,
                                         ____/_  )_----'_\__
                                 ____----____/ / _--^-_   _ \_
                         ____----_o _----     ( (      ) ( \  \
                       _-_-- \ _/  -          ) '      / )  )  \
"Evolution: It's      _-_/   / /   /          /  '     /_/   /   \
Not For Every-       //   __/ /_) (          / \  \   / /   (_-C  \
Body!"              /(__--    /    '-_     /    \ \  / /    )  (\_)
                   /    o   (        '----'  __/  \_/ (____/   \
  -- Michael       /.. ../   .  .   ..  . .  -<_       ___/   _- \
     Feldman       \_____\.: . :.. _________-----_      -- __---_ \
                    VVVVV---------/VVVVVVVVV      \______--    /  \
                         VVVVVVVVV                   \_/  ___  '^-'___
                                           _________------   --='== . \
                     AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--- .      o          -o---'  /





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:38:12 +0000
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: wwWWWWWW

Contractors Exchange <contract@pipeline.com> sez

>t could have been designed independantly, but I suspect it was derived
>from my *www* fold. Marc=20

No, it's a simplified version of my classic caterpiller
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _WWWWWWWWWWWWWW@

all the best,

Nick Robinson





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:44:03 -0500
From: "Steve Theil" <theil@htonline.com>
Subject: Re: Kittyhawk site

Pat Slider said: "This is the product put out by Kittyhawk software. Here's
their web site:

http://www.khs.com/khs/KHSMAIN.HTM
You can get a Windows or a Mac demo of the paper airplane software at this
site."

Thanks very much, Pat for this info. I checked out this interesting site
and thank you for referring to it. The animated diagrams I was able to
access at this site are not as sophisticated as the ones I'd seen at my
"mystery" site, but I appreciate the information about the use of animation
in diagramming, nevertheless.

Most gratefully,
Linda Theil
theil@htonline.com





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 16:21:17 EST
From: Kevin Kinney <kkinney@med.unc.edu>
Subject: Jerry Harris' Gargoyle

>         Yes and no.  Yes, it's my invention, and the pictures are traced
> from my originals, but the verbal instructions completely obfuscate the
> folding procedure and do _not_ follow my originals.  I'm personally unaware
> of anyone who has managed to fold the model from Ansill's book's
> instructions that has not also seen my originals.  8-C  Thanks for your
> comments, though...however, my more recent computerized diagrams completely
> outdo the old, hand-drawn ones!  (I don't have computerized ones for the
> "Gargoyle," anyway...)  Sorry!  I wish you luck in trying to fold it -- if
> you get stuck, fire me an e and I'll see what I can do to clear it up.
>
Consider yourself made aware.  I've folded it a few times, and never seen
the originals.  In fact, it was one of the first "challenging" models I
folded when I started out!

(Of course, I'm *assuming* I got it right, but it does look like the
pictures in the book.)

Now, there are a few other models in that book that were *really* baffling!

(I've never managed that elf!)

Kevin Kinney
kkinney@med.unc.edu





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:35:03 -0800
From: Charles Knuffke <Knuffke@Sirius.com>
Subject: Re: wwWWWWWW

Nick Robinson wrote:
>
> Contractors Exchange <contract@pipeline.com> sez
>
> >t could have been designed independantly, but I suspect it was derived
> >from my *www* fold. Marc=20
>
> No, it's a simplified version of my classic caterpiller
>
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _WWWWWWWWWWWWWW@
>
> all the best,
>
> Nick Robinson

I'm not making any accusations, but the classic caterpiller looks a lot
like my toothbrush model:

 _ _ _ _ _ _ WWWWWW

However, I can't for the life of me see how you got the extra paper at
the front to make the head  ;-)

Regards,





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:36:10 +0000
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: ori cats? Try the real thing!

"Jerry D. Harris" <jdharris@post.cis.smu.edu> sez

>   I could use a good origami cat!  Would anyone out there be willing
>to exchange diagrams of this cat for something they want that I might have?

Better yet, I'll send you a real cat - we've got lots to spare. I'll put
some nibbles in for the journey (assuming I can UUencode a cat). She's
called "Fergie" & has a ravenous appetite.

all the best,

Nick Robinson

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/nick
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:02:59 +0000
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: text only diagrams wanted!

I'm putting up a page of text only instructions at the bos web site - if
anyone has *simple* *clear* instructions, please mail them to me
(unnumbered with an empty line between steps) & I'll add them (with
creator/author credits!)

keep folding,

Nick Robinson

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/nick
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 16:56 CST
From: jdharris@post.cis.smu.edu (Jerry D. Harris)
Subject: Re: Jerry Harris' Gargoyle

>Consider yourself made aware.  I've folded it a few times, and never seen
>the originals.  In fact, it was one of the first "challenging" models I
>folded when I started out!

        Hey, I've been awareified!  8-D  I'm glad _someone_ was able to
make heads or tails of those instructions...and I'm honored that it was a
"first" for someone!

Jerry D. Harris                       (214) 768-2750
Dept. of Geological Sciences          FAX:  768-2701
Southern Methodist University
Box 750395                            jdharris@post.smu.edu
Dallas  TX  75275-0395                (Compuserve:  102354,2222)

                                              .--       ,
                                         ____/_  )_----'_\__
                                 ____----____/ / _--^-_   _ \_
                         ____----_o _----     ( (      ) ( \  \
                       _-_-- \ _/  -          ) '      / )  )  \
"Evolution: It's      _-_/   / /   /          /  '     /_/   /   \
Not For Every-       //   __/ /_) (          / \  \   / /   (_-C  \
Body!"              /(__--    /    '-_     /    \ \  / /    )  (\_)
                   /    o   (        '----'  __/  \_/ (____/   \
  -- Michael       /.. ../   .  .   ..  . .  -<_       ___/   _- \
     Feldman       \_____\.: . :.. _________-----_      -- __---_ \
                    VVVVV---------/VVVVVVVVV      \______--    /  \
                         VVVVVVVVV                   \_/  ___  '^-'___
                                           _________------   --='== . \
                     AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--- .      o          -o---'  /





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:44:44 -0600 (cst)
From: Joseph Wu <origami@planet.datt.co.jp>
Subject: Re: Kittyhawk site

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Steve Theil wrote:

=Thanks very much, Pat for this info. I checked out this interesting site
=and thank you for referring to it. The animated diagrams I was able to
=access at this site are not as sophisticated as the ones I'd seen at my
="mystery" site, but I appreciate the information about the use of animation
=in diagramming, nevertheless.

The VRML paper airplanes are at a Japanese site. Here's the URL:

http://www.neuro.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~aly/polygon/vrml/ika/

It was your comment about sophistication that triggered my memory of this
site. This still might not be what you're looking for, but it *is* pretty
impressive. You will need a web browser capable of VRML. I know that Netscape
works.

          Joseph Wu           Faith: When you have come to the end of all the
  origami@planet.datt.co.jp   light that you know and need to step into the
 Webmaster, the Origami Page  darkness of the unknown, Faith is knowing that
http://www.datt.co.jp/Origami one of two things will happen: either there will
 Webmaster, DATT Japan Inc.   be something solid to stand on or you will be
    http://www.datt.co.jp     taught how to fly.                --Anonymous





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:56:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenny1414@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ian Harrison & Math Origami Article

Re: polyhedral origami

Aloha Valerie, here's another fiber for your thread.
Back a while ago, I think I remember a  cover story in the British Origami
Society's newsletter/magazine, about a young Russian folder who made these
beautiful woven polyhedral meshworks out of long STRAIGHT strips of paper.

Anyone out there got their back issues handy and can look this up? I think he
worked as a movie projectionist. The photographs were really beautiful, and
the method was new to me, different from any other method I've seen.

Aloha,

Kenny1414@aol.com

Kenneth M. Kawamura
P O Box 6039
E Lansing,  MI  48826-6039





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:06:34 -0800
From: Jean Villemaire <boyer@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: Ian Harrison & Math Origami Article

Valerie Vann wrote:

> (P.S. I didn't get flooded myself, but had relatives & friends
> among the evacueesbut the engineering company I work for
> was going flat out 18-20 hrs a day trying to deal with
> levee failures and flooding amoung our clients, which include
> the main flood control agency for the Sacramento metro area,
> and the Delta, where we've still got problems going on from
> high tides, plus months of repair work. And then the lawsuits
> are starting already...)

I guess this means much paper was lost.  I vote for a letter of silence.

Seriously, I hope no one was injured.  And I now can explain why you're
hooked on modular and geometrics.  You're in engineering!  Still, I'd like to
get a diagram of that nautilus box and lid...

Hoping you get some well deserved rest,

Jean Villemaire
Montreal, QUEBEC
boyer@videotron.ca





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:28:51 -0800
From: Mike and Janet Hamilton <mikeinnj@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Origami in San Francisco

Bill McFarland wrote:
>
> I am going to San Francisco the first week in Feburary.  Could any one
> tell me of origami resources there?

Aitoh
1434 28th Ave.
San Francisco, CA 94122
1-800-681-5533
FAX 415-566-1448
Ask for catalog, minimum order $100 or so. If you pay up front they ship
free

Asahiya Bookstores
Arlington Hts, IL at the Yaohan Plaza
NYC on Vanderbilt St, west side of Grand Central Station between 42nd
and 43rd Sts.
There are three branches in CA:  LA, San Diego, and San Gabriel.

In San Francisco, there is a small Kinokuniya stationery shop
corner across from the big Kinokuniya bookstore in the
Japantown mall (JapanTown Center, Kinokuniya Building)
Kinokuniya Stationary and Gift 415-567-8901
Kinokuniya Bookstores
1581 Webster Street
San Francisco 415-567-7625

Kotobuki
South San Francisco
Kotobuki Trading Company is the principal supplier of
origami papers to the retail trade.
Kotobuki only sells wholesale to the retail trade.

The Paper Tree
1743 Buchanan Mall
San Fransisco, CA 94115
(415) 921-7100

Janet Hamilton

mailto:Mikeinnj@concentric.net
http://www.concentric.net/~Mikeinnj/





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:29:17 -0800
From: Jean Villemaire <boyer@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: wwWWWWWW

Charles Knuffke wrote:
>
> Nick Robinson wrote:
> >
> > Contractors Exchange <contract@pipeline.com> sez
> >
> > >t could have been designed independantly, but I suspect it was derived
> > >from my *www* fold. Marc=20
> >
> > No, it's a simplified version of my classic caterpiller
> >
> > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _WWWWWWWWWWWWWW@
> >
> > all the best,
> >
> > Nick Robinson
>
> I'm not making any accusations, but the classic caterpiller looks a lot
> like my toothbrush model:
>
>  _ _ _ _ _ _ WWWWWW
>
> However, I can't for the life of me see how you got the extra paper at
> the front to make the head  ;-)
>
> Regards,

Well, a valley and a chain of mountains.  God, here's the origami version of
the Amazon!

      WW
     M
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ WWWWWW

Maybe Eva from Munchen had just caracterized part of the flock of gulls over
that river...  Come on Eva, tell us! ;->

Jean Villemaire





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:40:16 EST
From: kerry_k@juno.com (Kerry Kiphart)
Subject: Re:How I got started in Origami

My first exposure to origami was a mobile kit which my aunt and uncle
gave me for Christmas when I was in junior high. The models were easy to
fold, but I instinctively felt that the ones using two pieces of paper
(one for the head and front legs, the other for the back legs and tail)
were "cheating."

I didn't know of anyone who folded, or of any books, for years. Near the
end of college, I found James Sakoda's "Modern Origami" and was thrilled
to have something with more advanced folds. ( I got this book when it was
first published, and I still love the picture on the back. Is that an IBM
360 in the background? And what is the console?) I
still use some of these designs for groups.

I collected several books along the years, but had never even met another
folder until I moved to New York's Hudson Valley and discovered FOSA. I
still mostly lurk around the edges, but I do get inspired sometimes!
Kerry Kiphart





Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:46:16 -0600
From: jdharris@post.cis.smu.edu (Jerry D. Harris)
Subject: Re: ori cats? Try the real thing!

>"Jerry D. Harris" <jdharris@post.cis.smu.edu> sez
>
>>   I could use a good origami cat!  Would anyone out there be willing
>>to exchange diagrams of this cat for something they want that I might have?
>
>Better yet, I'll send you a real cat - we've got lots to spare. I'll put
>some nibbles in for the journey (assuming I can UUencode a cat). She's
>called "Fergie" & has a ravenous appetite.

        Thanks, Nick, but somehow I don't think she'll mesh too nicely with
my 5'5" boa constrictor, Jezebel!  ;-D

Jerry D. Harris                       (214) 768-2750
Dept. of Geological Sciences          FAX:  768-2701
Southern Methodist University
Box 750395                            jdharris@post.smu.edu
Dallas  TX  75275-0395                (Compuserve:  102354,2222)

                                              .--       ,
                                         ____/_  )_----'_\__
                                 ____----____/ / _--^-_   _ \_
                         ____----_o _----     ( (      ) ( \  \
                       _-_-- \ _/  -          ) '      / )  )  \
"Evolution: It's      _-_/   / /   /          /  '     /_/   /   \
Not For Every-       //   __/ /_) (          / \  \   / /   (_-C  \
Body!"              /(__--    /    '-_     /    \ \  / /    )  (\_)
                   /    o   (        '----'  __/  \_/ (____/   \
  -- Michael       /.. ../   .  .   ..  . .  -<_       ___/   _- \
     Feldman       \_____\.: . :.. _________-----_      -- __---_ \
                    VVVVV---------/VVVVVVVVV      \______--    /  \
                         VVVVVVVVV                   \_/  ___  '^-'___
                                           _________------   --='== . \
                     AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--- .      o          -o---'  /





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:53:31 +0000
From: "Vincent & Veronique" <osele@worldnet.fr>
Subject: Re: [Fr] How you got started in Origami

Salut,

> From: Preaux cyrille <preaux@univ-lyon1.fr>
> I was in a bus, and saw a man doing something with his hand. He didn't
> find a place and was folding upright with much concentration. a dreamy
> smile on face.
> It takes me a long time to understand that he wasn't mad at all.
> After he finished is fold ( a dinosor ) he ask to one of us (the amased
> people) if he has children and give it to him. I was a little bit
> jealous.
> for a few weeks I've tried to find things about it on the net. With no
> succes until someone teach me the word ORIGAMI.
> hoping that I respond well to you and that my poor english is
> understandable.

Ton anglais est pas mal, mais tu peux parler en Francais, sur cette
liste. Tu peux mettre [FR] en debut de sujet, pour prevenir nos amis
anglophone pur. Le mieux est encore de faire la traduction!
Je ne sais pas si j'ai fait des emules en Origami a Paris, comme ce
plieur anonyme a pu le faire a Lyon.
Mais toujours est-il que qd j'etais a Paris, j'avais l'habitude de
plier des... tickets de metro pendant mes trajets en metro et de les
laisser en evidence derriere moi.
Personne ne m'a jamais aborde, mais j'espere que les gens ne me
regardais bizarrement :-)

Donc a Lyon, ce n'etais pas moi, mais j'aimerais savoir qui cela peut
bien etre.

A+
Vincent
 _______                                                     _____
|       | Osele Vincent (Toulouse/France) Membre du MFPP    /|    |
|       | osele@worldnet.fr                                /_|    |
|       | http://www.worldnet.fr/~osele/origami.htm       |       |
|_______| -----------------> ORIGAMI -------------------> |_______|





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:38:35 +0000
From: Penny Groom <penny@sector.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: wwWWWWWW

>
>> > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _WWWWWWWWWWWWWW@
>> >
Whoever claims this as their own now that it has a head must acknowledge
that it is inspired by John Smith as it was most definitely pureland
before it was added to !

Penny
>

------------------------------------------
Penny Groom                :(  Membership Secretary
                           :)  British Origami Society
penny@sector.demon.co.uk
Stairwell's homepage.
http://www.sector.demon.co.uk/index.htm





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:59:41 +1300
From: cmorris@geko.net.au (Carmel Morris)
Subject: Re: Kittyhawk airplane cd

Hey guys...
Thought I'd come out of the paperwork on this one:

>>Now as I recall, Nick Robinson never saw a penny from his models on this CD?
>>Still true?
>
>Yup. To start with, we didn't even see any credit on the design
>instructions!  Kittyhawk revised it with creator credits & (gasp) a free
>copy each, but payment never seemed to enter the equation. I thought
>they had absorbed the copyright ethic, but would like to know if
>anything else "a bit dodgy" is going on with our work.
>
>They also said they'd appreciate help with "any future origami
>releases", but then produced the two CD's you mention without any
>warning or collaboration whatsoever. Do they want the best advice around
>(ie. from folders!) or just to rake in the bucks? Makes you wonder.....

Kittyhawk used 7 (I think) of my models for their paper plane CD and
they took 6 months to send my "complimentary" copy. When it did come it was
for windows, not for mac as I had asked. They also asked me for some
of my dinosaur designs/consultation for another program which I guess
did not eventuate (to my knowledge). They promised "good visual credit/
publicity for creators."

I sympathise

Carmel(aka Campbell) Morris

---------------------------------------------
-----Carmel Morris - cmorris@geko.net.au-----
-------http://www.geko.net.au/~cmorris-------
-------------Mobile: 014 629 993-------------
---------------------------------------------
             __
            /  \-<              _|
            ====              _|
            |o o\---{       _|
            |o o \        _|
            |o o o\     _|





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:23:47 -0700
From: dbwalker@nilenet.com (David Bruce Walker)
Subject: Re:How I got started in Origami

I started in origami about 30 years ago, I also started doing magic at
that time. On PBS in chicago, I saw a woman teach the chinese junk, i
memorized it and for a while it was the only model i had, i was too busy
doing second deals and  palming coins to go any further. in high school I
was given James Sadoka's book and worked my way thru it.  I also met neil
elias,thru my magic mentor and friend,Ed Marlo (one of the greatest card
magicians ever). and since I was not widely read in origami, I was unaware
of the importance of neil in the origami world, He is very important in the
card magic world... Sadly Ed passed on several years, ago and i sort of lost
interest in card magic, earlier my wife knowing of my passing interest in
origami, had purchased Engel's book me--thru a record club of all things--,
I dusted it off and have managed with the help of others, to work thru it
and lang's books, (especially the insect one)(thanks tim r.) I tend to fold
or try to what is considered complex models, I have all of montroll's books
now, and langs and the oru folding volumes. My 6 yr old daughter loves
montroll's work, especially since she had me fold all of the models in the
african book for her classroom (they just happen to be studying Africa at
the moment). she has even started to fold some models from his "easy
origami" book. My only other origami regret is that i met jerry harris too
late to fold with him on a regular basis while he lived in denver and that
while i lived and studied overseas i was only meeting with magicians and not
others interested in origami.





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:18:51 -0800
From: Wayne Ko <Herman_Ko@mindlink.bc.ca>
Subject: Re:  How I got started in Origami

My passion for origami started as a result of my Math lectures at
university.  I found the Math lectures to be extremely dull and I'd start
doodling to keep awake in class.  Pretty soon, I had piles of useless paper
since I had to take a lot of Math classes because I majored in Math
Education. Being somewhat of a tight wad, I did not want it all to go to
waste and so began my journey in Origami.  The flapping bird was my first
model and many of Robert Harbin's books helped shaped my early days.  I fold
for the pure thrill of the process and my models became gifts to children
and friends.  Even today, I have very few completed models in my possession
as I still like to give them away.  It is also a great way to generate
people's interest in origami - especially children.

A few other highlights that have had significant impacts:

- Like a lot of you, I found John Montroll's Origami for the Enthusiast a
timely publication that made me aware that origami is much more than the
simple folds I was used to.  Most books available at the time were geared to
beginners.

- Finding all you people out on the net made me realize that I was not
unique in my passion.  I thought that I was the only one in my city that
folded paper.  Initially, I only knew about alt.arts.origami, and it seemed
like I was the only folder/poster there too.  It was neat to get an e-mail
from Penny Groom, whom I've only read about in my books.

- Meeting Joseph Wu in person - my only physical contact with a prominent
member of the origami community.  I know, I should attend the various
conventions, but I can't afford the time or money to travel yet.

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWayne - so there!





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 8:13:30 EST
From: Kevin Kinney <kkinney@med.unc.edu>
Subject: SEOF Revisited (again)

Many of you are aware of this already, but for those who aren't

I just got a nifty surprise in my mailbox (snail mail, that is) yesterday.
 A postcard depicting the great life-sized Yoshino T-Rex skeleton that was
put rogether for the Southeast Origami Festival this past October.

I'm glad Jonathan sent these out, 'cause I forgot to take a picture, and
people don't believe me when I describe it.  I'm thinking of ordering a
packet of these cards and sending them to the nonbelievers (there's a
telephone number on the back for doing so).

Apparently the mighty T-rex is also available for rental, exhibitions and
such.  I wonder where it's being stored?

(Shoot.  Just realized I forgot the contact numbers for those that might
want them.  If no one else does so first, I'll send them Monday).

Kevin Kinney

kkinney@med.unc.edu

(Wow!  I got to post 2 relevant origami things in 2 days!  a record!)





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:49:38 EST
From: troy.tate@juno.com (Troy D Tate)
Subject: Re: wwWWWWWW

You can never say that folders don't have a sense of humor! ;-}

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Seriously trying to avoid those techies
who have a "charisma-bypass".





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:04:15 +0000
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: help with listserver please...

Does anyone know how I can later the address to whoich my mail is sent?
I can then have it filed in a separate folder automatically. The help
set offers;

set <list> address <current-password> <new-address>: change the address
        you are subscribed withmay not be available on all lists.

But I've no idea what the password is & it rejects it without one....

I can always unsub & resub on the new address, but I thought I'd (try
to) use technology rather than circumvent it ;)

 all the best,

Nick Robinson

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk





Date:   Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:58:46 -0500
From: "Dominic" <chandom@microtec.net>
Subject: Kittyhawk

Well, lots has been said about Kittyhawk and their origami programs. Most
notably, that our friend Nick Robinson has not received proper recognition
for his work. Also, it's seam's that they have their own animation program,
it is  not VRML as I first tough.

Now, I have this to say about Kitty hawk. First their animation program is
probably the clearest way to "diagram" origami up to date, altought it's
probably too labor intensive for anything but a team of people to operate.
It would be very interesting to see more complicated model's diagrammed.

Secondly, this company should realize that origami  people entertain thigh
link's, and are certainly the best source of information for  what makes a
quality program involving origami. Now, let's hope this company is
committed to it's product and will know how to meet the demands of a quite
established origami crowd. This will be a warrant to their success and also
to the ever advancing art of origami.

My two cents...

Dominic Beauchamp
Montreal, Canada





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:23:54 +0100
From: Preaux cyrille <preaux@univ-lyon1.fr>
Subject: answer and holiday

I'm doing this mail for all the people who respond to my letter(I do not
have time to respond
to each letter personnaly I apologize).

First of all thanks to all.

then complement to the story, I don't know nothing about the man in the bus.
sorry...

And the most important peace of new of the day...
you see?
no?really? 8-O
I've done it...
regardless of my work...
Forgetting my girlfriend (she gonna be amply rewarded to be patient with
me,she's gonna have it)...
after ten attempts (nearly 20 hours).
even during a network courses...
I've done it

the kawasaki rose...

And as I learn in school that all essay must finish whith an open ended
question.

Who could I met from the list in TURIN (Italy) in the first week of
february?
What could I find about origami there?

here it is.

Thanks to all of you to exist.

Cyrille Priaux (student in computer science).





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:13:08 -0800
From: Jean Villemaire <boyer@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: How I got started in Origami (could be: wwWWWWWW)

Wayne Ko wrote:

> WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWayne - so there!

BRAVO.  LONG LIVE HIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM !

Jean Villemaire





Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 22:35:13 -0800
From: vicky@infoarch.com
Subject: RE> Origami in San Francisc

Bill McFarland asks
>>I am going to San Francisco the first week in Feburary.
Could any one
>>tell me of origami resources there?

If you are interested in meeting other folders the Bay Area
Rapid Folders meeting is on Saturday Feb 1, 2:00-5:00 at
Bernal Heights Library - 500 Cortland St. - 695-5160 for
directions.

There is also a early mtg from 1:00 to discuss the Pacific
Coast Origami Conference plans.  Hope you can join us.

Vicky Mihara Avery
vicky@infoarch.com





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:16:40 +0000
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Italian folders

Preaux cyrille <preaux@univ-lyon1.fr> sez

>Who could I met from the list in TURIN (Italy) in the first week of
>february?
>What could I find about origami there?

Try writing to Roberto Morassi, a real gentleman & fairly antique
folder - morassi@zen.it

He lives in Pistoia, wherever that is ;)

all the best,

Nick Robinson

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
work mail       nick@rpmrecords.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/nick
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
DART homepage   http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/projects/oip/dart/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:18:45 +0000
From: Nick Robinson <nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Kittyhawk

Dominic <chandom@microtec.net> sez

>our friend Nick Robinson has not received proper recognition
>for his work

Sorry if I gave this impression, they *did* eventually credit all
creators, but clearly this should have been from day one....

keep folding,

Nick Robinson

personal email  nick@cheesypeas.demon.co.uk
homepage        http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/nick
BOS homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk/bos/
RPM homepage    http://www.rpmrecords.co.uk





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 20:29 +0100
From: Doris.L@t-online.de (Doris Lauinger)
Subject: Peter Budai's Newest Book

Hi all,

Peter Budai, the fifteen-year-old Hungarian, has published his third book. It's
written in English and Hungarian, so everybody can understand it.

The title: A papier birodalma - The Realm of Paper
ISBN 963 650 763 5 sponsered by Dunaujvarosi finompapirgyar kft.
Contents:
Heart on letterpaper - Peter Budai
Corner mark (heart) - Peter Budai
Duck - Peter Budai
Cat - Sergei Afomkin
Dog - Vicente Palacios
Cock - Peter Budai
Chattering, flutterin chick - Masatsugu Tsutsumi
Hen - Peter Budai
Croacking frog - Peter Budai
Parrot I - Peter Budai
Parrot II - Peter Budai
Ladybug - Marc Kirschenbaum
Box with flexi-lid - Heinz Strobl
Tato I-II - Peter Budai
Maltese cross - Peter Budai
Turkish - Peter Budai
Angel - Peter Budai
Santa Claus - Peter Budai
Box with cranes - Elena Afonkina
BIANCO trophy - Peter Budai
Dragon - Peter Budai

The instruction a clearly, the modells are well described. Peter's Santa Claus
is also published in Tomoko Fuse's newest book.

I don't know the price, but I think it's not expensive (about 400-500 Hungarian
Forint or 2 US-Dollar).

Origamically

Doris





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 20:50 +0100
From: Doris.L@t-online.de (Doris Lauinger)
Subject: How I got started on Origami

When I was a very little child, my mother showed me and my sisters some
paperfolding using newspaper - ship, hat, caleidoscope, purse. It was a nice
play, but with the time I didn't do it any longer.
When I moved to Bonn I get in contact with Japanese ladies and the
German-Japanese society. Once a Japanese lady showed me the crane. It was nice,
but not overwhelming.
But one day I got an invitation for a demonstration of Tomoko Fuse. She showed
her wonderful boxes and the Sonobe cube. That was it! I got interested in
origami. Since this time I have been interested in geometrical origami and
origami became my hobby. Now I teach origami to my Japanese friends. What a
curious world!!!! And I had the chance to meet Fuse-san a second time 3 years
ago. A fascinating lady!!!

Happy folding - origamically

Doris





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:29:20 -0500
From: Martha Mitchen <afolder@avana.net>
Subject: Re: SEOF Revisited (again)

Kevin Kinney wrote:
>
> Many of you are aware of this already, but for those who aren't
>
> I just got a nifty surprise in my mailbox (snail mail, that is) yesterday.
>  A postcard depicting the great life-sized Yoshino T-Rex skeleton that was
> put rogether for the Southeast Origami Festival this past October.
>
> I'm glad Jonathan sent these out, 'cause I forgot to take a picture, and
> people don't believe me when I describe it.  I'm thinking of ordering a
> packet of these cards and sending them to the nonbelievers (there's a
> telephone number on the back for doing so).
>
> Apparently the mighty T-rex is also available for rental, exhibitions and
> such.  I wonder where it's being stored?
>
> (Shoot.  Just realized I forgot the contact numbers for those that might
> want them.  If no one else does so first, I'll send them Monday).
>
> Kevin Kinney
> kkinney@med.unc.edu
>
> (Wow!  I got to post 2 relevant origami things in 2 days!  a record!)

I just got off the phone with Jonathan right before I read Kevin's
message.  Yes, the T-rex is available for rental, exhibitions and such.
In fact, Jonathan will be installing it in a museum somewhere in
Massachusetts in April, which was one of the reasons he had called.  The
T-rex had suffered some damage when it was disassembled and Atlanta
D-team members had offered to help him repair it.

I thought you all might be interested in knowing what's doing with the
beast and where it might be seen next and in the future, especially
those who were not able to attend the festival.  It really is an
awesome creation.  Since Jonathan is not on the list, I had asked him to
send me info on its travels so I could let you all know.  So, he should
be sending me more specific info -- exhibit dates, museum name (he told
me but I can't remember), location (I think he said the Berkshires, if
they are in Massachussetts), etc.

Martha Mitchen





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:30:51 +0000
From: Penny Groom <penny@sector.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Peter Budai's Newest Book a winner with me.

 Lauinger <Doris.L@t-online.de> writes
>Hi all,
>
>Peter Budai, the fifteen-year-old Hungarian, has published his third book.
>It's written in English and Hungarian, so everybody can understand it.
>
>The title: A papier birodalma - The Realm of Paper
>ISBN 963 650 763 5 sponsered by Dunaujvarosi finompapirgyar kft.

This is a great book, anyone who knows me will know I need simple and
well drawn models to acheive anything, this book has it all.

Thanks Peter I feel adequate again!!!!

Penny
------------------------------------------
Penny Groom                :(  Membership Secretary
                           :)  British Origami Society
penny@sector.demon.co.uk
Stairwell's homepage.
http://www.sector.demon.co.uk/index.htm





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:12:45 +0100
From: Robby/Laura/Lisa <morassi@zen.it>
Subject: Re: Italian folders

Hi, Nick !

At 12.29 18/1/1997 -0400, you wrote:

>Try writing to Roberto Morassi, a real gentleman & fairly antique
>folder - morassi@zen.it

Thanks... I'm only too flattered.... but I don't feel SO antique ! :-)

>He lives in Pistoia, wherever that is ;)

I know where it is, but won't tell you !!! \:-(
Anyway, I have already sent him a message. Four hours before you posted THIS
one... ;-D
Best wishes

Roberto





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:18:06 +0000
From: "Rachel Katz" <mandrk@pb.net>
Subject: Re: SEOF Revisited (again)

Martha,

Do keep us informed about the dino skeleton. I have a photo of it and
it is truly awesome.

By the way, the Berkshire's are in Massachusettes.

Rachel Katz
Origami - it's not just for squares!





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:02:39 -0500
From: djcherry@pop.erols.com
Subject: Re: Peter Budai's Newest Book

At 02:44 PM 1/18/97 -0400, Doris Lauinger wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Peter Budai, the fifteen-year-old Hungarian, has published his third book.
>It's written in English and Hungarian, so everybody can understand it.

Does anyone have any information about the author of this book?  I used
to know a family by this name, and since they were also hungarian, I was
just wondering if there could be any connection.

Thanks,

Dana





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:29:39 +1100 (EST)
From: Steven Casey <scasey@enternet.com.au>
Subject: What would you do?

Hi all,
Here's the scenario, in a casual conversation you mention your skills in
origami to a person who works in promotions. Later your contacted and asked
if you could come up with an original design ( a clown ) from a place mat
for a promotional activity in a restaurant chain. It's a big maybe, there
are no promises.

The company your dealing with does promotions and merchandizing in shopping
centres and the like. They want you to develop a _product_ they can sell to
someone else and re-use for future customers. Your product is a fold.

How would you negotiate a deal like that.

What would you do?

Cheers,

Steven Casey
Melbourne Australia
scasey@enternet.com.au





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:11:58 -0500 (EST)
From: DLister891@aol.com
Subject: Re: Peter Budai.

In her note to Origami-L sent earlier today, Dana Cherry asked for
information about Peter Budai, the Hungarian author of  the recently
published bi-language Origami book "A Papir Birodalma" or "The Realm of
Paper".

I have just finished writing a letter to Peter, and can claim to know him as
a friend, so perhaps I may say a few words about him.

Peter is now aged 15 years, having been born on 24th, September, 1981. His
father was a mining engineer who died from a heart attack when Peter was four
years old and since then Peter has lived with his mother A'gathe and his
grandmother. The family live at Szabadbattyan near Kolcsey in Hungary.

Peter started paperfolding about the time that his father died, but he has
other hobbies including collecting minerals and pottery. He has proved an apt
pupil at school and seems to excel in all subjects. In particular he speaks
English very well indeed. In his last note to me he told me he was learning
Italian. He has already travelled extensively, accompanied by his mother, who
speaks only a little English. He has visited New York for the OUSA
Conventions, Germany,China and Finland, Russia and others. I am sure that
many members of Origami-L will have met him.

Peter designed his first origami model when he was nine years old and he held
; his first exhibition in 1992, followed by many others in Hungary. His models
have been exhibited in Tokyo, Italy, Paris., Munich and New York. He is a
member of the BOS, OUSA, CDO. Origami Deutschland, the St. Petersburg Origami
Centre and BARF. In Munich in 1995, he met and had his photograph taken with
Akira Yoshizawa.

At the early age of twelve, Peter published two origami books: "Origami
Mindenkinek" and "Dinok es Tarsaik" (about folding dionosaurs). While this is
undoubtedly a remarkable acievement for a twelve-year old, he has been
sponsored  by a commercial firm, Dunaujvaros Fine -paper-mill Ltd.. So, "A
Papir Birodalma" is his third book. To date he has designed well over 150
origami models.

Altogether, Peter Budai is a remarkable young man. Despite his gifts, he
remains a happy teenager and his sucesses have not gone to his head. We hope
that in his later life he will realise the promise he has shown so far,
whether it is in paperfolding or in some profession unrelated to it. I am
sure that if his father could see Peter now, he would be very proud of his
son. We will all watch his future career with deep interest and with hope and
goodwill for everything he does.

David Lister.

Grimsby, England.

DLister891@AOL.com.





Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800
From: Jean Villemaire <boyer@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: What would you do?

Steven Casey wrote:
>
> Here's the scenario, in a casual conversation you mention your skills in
> origami to a person who works in promotions. Later your contacted and asked
> if you could come up with an original design ( a clown ) from a place mat
> for a promotional activity in a restaurant chain. It's a big maybe, there
> are no promises.
>
> The company your dealing with does promotions and merchandizing in shopping
> centres and the like. They want you to develop a _product_ they can sell to
> someone else and re-use for future customers. Your product is a fold.
>
> How would you negotiate a deal like that.
>
> What would you do?

Have you thought about giving them the yako san?  Let's say, enhanced by two
or three new folds?  This a model of public use, like classical music themes.
But as for an original new model...

One can register copyrights on an original model as on the diagramming for a
publishing of this same model.  Now, copyrights are ruled differently
according to laws in each country.  There may be international agreements I
am not aware of.

Our problem, in the origami community, is to preserve the sharing of a model.
One can claim rights on a certain way of sharing, let's say 14 steps drawn
in which a way..., but no one can prevent anyboby from trying to fold it and
showing how to a friend.

I'm worried that company gets all the credit for the work.  They must be
aware of a particular tradition in our community all around the world that
allows a creator to get full credit for his creation.  That would be my first
step.  But I know if money is involved, they wouldn't want to share that.  So
they will want to buy the whole copyrights...

What can they do against sharing?  What legal difference is there between
copying and sharing?  If you lose your right to copy on your own model, at
least can you spare the right to share?

As for merchandizing, what else can they sell other than a diagram?  A
pre-folded model?  Who will buy that if anyone can do it itself with the
diagram?  A T-shirt with the model printed on it?  So what?  What's the
difference with a pair of orizuru earings?  No one can stop you from folding
the crane even if they make a business out of it.

I don't really know if this out loud thinking can help.  I only wish you can
get out of this trap with a new model I can fold in my livingroom.  But, I
sure would like it myself to get my work the recognition it deserves.

Good luck.

Jean Villemaire
Montreal, QUEBEC
boyer@ videotron.ca





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:31:09 -0500 (EST)
From: casida@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Casida Mark)
Subject: Re: What would you do?

Steven Casey wrote:

> Here's the scenario, in a casual conversation you mention your skills in
> origami to a person who works in promotions. Later your contacted and asked
> if you could come up with an original design ( a clown ) from a place mat
> for a promotional activity in a restaurant chain. It's a big maybe, there
> are no promises.
>
> The company your dealing with does promotions and merchandizing in shopping
> centres and the like. They want you to develop a _product_ they can sell to
> someone else and re-use for future customers. Your product is a fold.
>
> How would you negotiate a deal like that.
>
> What would you do?

Professional photographers are faced with a similar problem.  When asked
if their photograph can be used, should they
   *) just say yes?
   *) say yes, provided appropriate credit is given?
   *) request payment and that appropriate credit be given?
I've seen it recommended that aspiring photographers who eventually hope
to make a living off of their work should _never_ give their work away for
free since it creates a precedent which makes future deals more difficult.
(We can also argue that the client will value the work more highly if
(s)he has to pay for it!) Since I think few origamiists can hope to
make a living off of origami, perhaps settling for appropriate credit
is best.  Other ideas, anyone?

                                      Mark
*-------------------------------------------------------*
|          Mark E. Casida                               |
|          e-mail: casida@chimcn.umontreal.ca           |





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:34:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenny1414@aol.com
Subject: Re: What would you do?

Umm. I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. I may be being too
cautious.

You need to ask whether the purchaser expected

(a) a "work for hire", I think that was the right term, it meant something
designed or created in the course of being a temporary or permanent employee
of a company, the importance being that the creator GIVES UP ALL RIGHTS to
the model, and gets no royalties, either, NOT RECOMMENDED;

(b) wants "all rights", NOT RECOMMENDED, used to be the norm, but now is open
to negotiation, BUT it has to be written down in a contract that you are
retaining any rights, or you could automatically lose all rights, in most
cases;

(c) wants "exclusive rights", in which case you need a contract that spells
out how exclusive, and what you and the buyer can and cannot do, for example,
could be reasonably limited to "exclusive, US, first-time publication rights"
; with "non-exclusive US rights to re-publish" and "the buyer retains
copyrights on their promotional literature" but "the creator retains all
copyrights on the fold and the diagrams";

(d) is willing to LET YOU RETAIN ALL RIGHTS to your fold, its diagrams, and
the rights to publish (for example in fliers, pamphlets, magazines, books,
videos, movies, digitized forms, etc.) , teach, distribute, and sell it, AND
SETTLE FOR YOUR GRANTING THEM A LICENSE to use the fold in their promotions
for this year (or somne reasonable time period), GIVING YOU CREDIT for the
fold, and, if they want it , and you're willing, USING YOUR NAME AND/OR
LIKENESS in their promotional materials, this is RECOMMENDED, but GET IT IN
WRITING, and remember to ask for one or two copies of the promotional
material for your scrap book, because otherwise you won't have anything to
show for this,

(e)  is the buyer PAYING for this? Is it a one-time payment, or will they pay
royalties if, say the promotion is wildly successful, and they decide to
re-run the promotion? RECOMMENDED, especially since this is a commercial use,
but remember this counts as TAXABLE income, and has to be large enough to
leave you with a reasonable amount, after taxes.

I guess, I'd advise you make a list of anything you think you might want to
do with the model, and anything you think they might want to do with the
model, and get them to agree IN WRITING that they will let you do what you
want on the list, you will let them do what you think they want on the list,
and anything not mentioned on the list is allowed to you, and not allowed to
them, and can be covered in a later CONTRACT. Be flexible, but don't agree to
anything that makes you really unhappy. Remember, the eventual goal is to
make everybody happier.

Mind you, I don't like to hassle with all of this, so I generally avoid doing
anything like this.

For whatever help this can be, let me give you some of my experience.
Klutz Press put out the first printing of "The Buck Book" with some of my
folds in it, re-drawn by an artist they hired, without crediting any of the
creators, and without telling me about it. Robert Neale noticed, and was kind
enough to point out their error to them, and notify me about the situation.
I'm assuming he also told every other folder who wasn't credited. Eventually,
they reprinted the book, with a list of credits, and (if my memory serves me)
sent me an apparently one-time check, for $250, with no mention of royalties,
or of not crediting me originally. They never sent me even one copy of the
book, which was a major lapse on their part. That's ok. My mother died last
year, so I can't send it to her anyway. I think this was nicer than the
publisher that sent me just a copy of the book with a nice thank you letter
and no money. I was very disappointed that the artist they hired had
apparently no origami background, and missed steps, and mis-drew some of the
diagrams, making them even harder to follow than my original hand-drawn
monsters.

By the way, if you're hand-drawing diagrams, I can say from experience that
using a ruler for the lines really helps. I tried to free-hand, and gave it
up as a very very bad idea.

Oh, and please report what happens to origami-l. I'm sure we could all learn
form this.

Aloha,

Kenny1414@aol.com

Kenneth M. Kawamura
P O Box 6039
E Lansing MI  48826-6039





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:45:49 -0800
From: Pat Slider <slider@stonecutter.com>
Subject: Speaking of Kittyhawk....

A lot of copies of their "Greatest Paper Airplanes CD" seem to be turning up
in eBay.com this week. (I just wrote a check for one of them :->.) I wonder
if KittyHawk is beginning to unload them. Perhaps they are about to announce
a new version. Anyway, if you are intested in this product, you might want
to watch for it in all those discount software places. But maybe the
multiple auction listings are just a coincidence.

(And if you are comfortable bidding online, these auctions turn up if you
type in "paper airplanes" in the title field on ebay's search page. But eBay
can be ridiculously slow. Odd hours are the best to do searches.)

Thought perhaps someone else on the list might be tempted,

pat slider
slider@stonecutter.com





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:39:53 -0100
From: reeds@openix.com (Reeds family)
Subject: Re: What would you do?

>Hi all,
>
>Here's the scenario, in a casual conversation you mention your skills in
>origami to a person who works in promotions. Later your contacted and asked
>if you could come up with an original design ( a clown ) from a place mat
>for a promotional activity in a restaurant chain. It's a big maybe, there
>are no promises.
>
>The company your dealing with does promotions and merchandizing in shopping
>centres and the like. They want you to develop a _product_ they can sell to
>someone else and re-use for future customers. Your product is a fold.
>
>How would you negotiate a deal like that.
>
>What would you do?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Steven Casey
>Melbourne Australia
>scasey@enternet.com.au

Dear Steven
Drawing on experience with US book publishing subsidiary rights:  I'd try
to insist on fee up front plus a royalty on each use of your fold (x
pennies/100 placemats printed; more for reprints/revisions). Try to make it
a non-exclusive right --ie so you too can market he same fold elsewhere (or
exclusive to the company for sales in your country/non-exclusive outside
the country).   Insist that you be credited on each piece of paper using
your fold and that you get copies of each use of your fold.
Good luck!
Karen
reeds@openix.com





Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:32:16 +0000
From: "Rachel Katz" <mandrk@pb.net>
Subject: Re: What would you do?

On 19 Jan 97 at 5:33, Steven Casey wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Here's the scenario, in a casual conversation you mention your skills in
> origami to a person who works in promotions. Later your contacted and asked
> if you could come up with an original design ( a clown ) from a place mat
> for a promotional activity in a restaurant chain. It's a big maybe, there
> are no promises.
>
> The company your dealing with does promotions and merchandizing in shopping
> centres and the like. They want you to develop a _product_ they can sell to
> someone else and re-use for future customers. Your product is a fold.
>
> How would you negotiate a deal like that.
>
> What would you do?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steven Casey

With your level of expertise, at very least, charge a good hourly rate
for the "product development." The first time Alice Gray was asked to
design a model for commercial use  Lillian O. said, she theorized
that at least she should get more than the unskilled "cleaning lady."
She was far too modest and charged only a little more.

By charging "by the hour" you avoid the problems that seem to come up
when they want a little revision here and there.

Rachel Katz
Origami - it's not just for squares!





Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:55:53 +1300
From: cmorris@geko.net.au (Carmel Morris)
Subject: Re: What would you do?

> Here's the scenario, in a casual conversation you mention your skills in
> origami to a person who works in promotions. Later your contacted and asked
> if you could come up with an original design ( a clown ) from a place mat
> for a promotional activity in a restaurant chain. It's a big maybe, there
> are no promises.
>
> The company your dealing with does promotions and merchandizing in shopping
> centres and the like. They want you to develop a _product_ they can sell to
> someone else and re-use for future customers. Your product is a fold.
>
> How would you negotiate a deal like that.
>
> What would you do?
>

Say the highest $$$ figure you can while keeping a straight face.

Works for me.
Carmel

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-----Carmel Morris - cmorris@geko.net.au-----
-------http://www.geko.net.au/~cmorris-------
-------------Mobile: 014 629 993-------------
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Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:11:44 EST
From: troy.tate@juno.com (Troy D Tate)
Subject: Re: Jerry Harris' Gargoyle

Well, I did get through Jerry's gargoyle! It's an _*excellent*_ model.
There are a couple of difficult spots as he mentioned. In particular,
steps 13-17 are a bugabear! There is not a clear text explanation
of what needs to be done. However, my model did turn out
to look like the picture (first try even!)

Thanks again Jerry for sharing this cool model!

Troy
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Seriously trying to avoid those techies
who have a "charisma-bypass".





Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:28:22 +0300 (MSK)
From: "Sergei Y. Afonkin" <sergei@origami.nit.spb.su>
Subject: Re: Peter Budai's Newest Book

He was my guest last year.
What would you like to know?
Please write directly to my address.
Your Sergei Afonkin, the chairman of St.Petersburg Origami Center
                                  ,    ,
sergei@origami.nit.spb.su        ("\''/").___..--''"`-._
                                 `9_ 9  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                                 (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'





Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:51:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Jansill@aol.com
Subject: Re:What would you d?

I have had a few experiences along these lines. As for me, I'm not all that
concerned with getting credit. (It's rare that in an advertisement or
anything like that, that an artist will get credit) For me, my main concern
is, quite frankly, getting paid and not beiang taken advantage of.

For example: I was contacted this past Summer by a company that wanted to do
an Origami piece in their ads and also to make individual pieces for clients
as gifts. I went in for a meeting and brought in a few models along the lines
of what they wanted. Well this turned into a 2 1/2 meeting and in the end
they wanted to see some different things. I worked frantically to come up
with a piece for them and had another marathon meeting where besides showing
my work, I also discussed ideas for the ad concept, layout and copy.

Well to make a long story short, They ended up not using the origami idea.
When I said that I sent them a bill for the time I had put in, they sort of
laughed at me. AND they did end up using a campaign that was one of the
things I had suggested!

And I got nothing.
I hate to be hard edged as far as business, but there IS money being made out
there and I know that Donald Trump would have made sure he was being paid for
just answering the phone!

Anyway, my advice (as mercenary as it may seem) is to discuss money from the
start and agree that you'll be paid for consulting with them even if they
don't use you. I make my living in the music business and BELIEVE ME there
are tons of people who are more than willing to exploit the lack of business
sense of many artists.

Jay Ansill
