




Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 15:34:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: "Ashley G. Perrien" <perr2232@kutztown.edu>
Subject: Re: Selling models; [Q] for pros...

> My guess is
> that there would be a number of people ho would be willing to have a go at
> his book, but might balk out, when they found oout they could have his
> models already folded at a reasonable price.
>
To an extent, yes. However, most of the people I've talked to around here
at least have said they'd never have the patience to sit and fold some of
the stuff. To them, the finished model is worth 10 times more than the
diagrams or being taught. To go back to the cookbook analogy, If I want a
cake, I'll buy a cake simply because I don't want to have to get the
recipe and do the work myself.

I'm not trying to justify selling the models or anything like that. All
I'm doing is clarifying a point.

AshleyP





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:07:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: DLister891@aol.com
Subject: Signing off.

I wonder if the following will be of any help to those wishing to unsubscribe
from Origami-L:

When I first subscribed to Origami-L, I sent my messare to the following
address,:

                             listserv@nstn.ns.ca

I got through at once. However, in the instructions I received immediatedly
after signing on, the following message appeared:

     "For information on the service and how to use it, send the following
request in the body of a mail message

     "All requests should be addressed to listserver@nstn.ca.       "

I'll leave each member to interpret this as he/she will, but I should have
thought that a message to:        listserver@nstn.ca         should get
through.

David (who, depite his surname and willingness to serve, has no connection
with Listserver.)





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:09:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: DLister891@aol.com
Subject: Books on Mathematics of Paperfolding.

Books on the Mathematics of Paperfolding.

Hamilton Link , Origami-L, 8th May, asks about books on the mathematics of
Origami, and in particular about a book Shuzo Fujimoto, of which he gives the
title as "An Invitation to Creative Playing with Origami".

This book by Fujimoto is the one  of which I have seen the title
transliterated into Roman letters as  "Sozo Suri Origami Asobi".
Unfortunately it is in Japanese and has never been translated. It was
published in 1982, and, as you say, is out-of-print. It will be difficult to
obtain a copy. How many copies were imported into Western countries., I do
not know, but there cannot have been very many.

It is Fujimoto's most important book. It was preceded by "Twist Origami", of
which two or three editions were issued in quite rough form by a duplicated
process, and by "Solid Origami", which was a more professionally printed
paper-back. Fujimoto has written one or two informal, smaller booklets since
1982.

Fujimoto is unquestionably one of the world's most important origami
geometers. Perhaps because of the limited publication of his books, his work
has not been as widely recognised as it deserves. Would that someone would
reissue his books in English, but the inevitable rejoinder form the
publishers would be "They're not commercial".

Fujimoto is a most delightful person, very friendly and approachable, and one
may say, very humble. He is a teacher by profession.

I obtained my copies of his books from him direct. His address is:

                     23-4 Jung     Sasayama Cho
                      Taki-Gun       Hyogo-Ken
                        669-23            Japan.

He may be able to supply you with something, but I would not be optimistic
about obtaining his main works.  In any case they deal with complex folded
structures and patterns and are somewhat beyond a simple analysis of the
mathematics of the square.

Another important Japanese book about Origami geometry is "Origami no
Kikagaku" ("Geometry of Origami") by Koji and Mitsue Husimi and published by
Nippon Hyoron Sha in 1979. (" Husimi" is sometimes written as "Fusimi",
because the initial sound is ambiguous to a Western ear). This was a
pioneering work by a retired physicist and his wife. I understand that they
hope to publish a revised and expanded edition. Our knowledge of the
mathematics of paperfolding has certainly expanded greatly since 1979.

For the study of the mathematics of paperfolding at any advanced level, an
essential work is "Proceedings of the First International Meeting of Origami
Science and Technology" which was held at Ferrara in Italy in December 1989.
The Proceedings were compiled by Humiaki Huzita (known as "Humi") and I
understand copies can still be obtained from him by writing to him at

                                   Humiaki Huzita,
                                   Via P. Fambri 3,
                                   1-35131 Padova,
                                    Italy.

I regret that I do not know the present price. (Padova the same as Padua in
English.)

Of equal interest will be the Proceedings of the Second International Meeting
of Scientific Origami, held in Japan in December 1994. They are eagerly
awaited, and publication has been promised soon. Many of the papers are
readily accessible to people who are not advanced mathematicians. For
instance, a paper by Kazuo Haga throws many interesting and surprising
sidelights on the geometry of folding the square at an elementary level. At
present  summaries of the papers are available only in the Abstract issued
befor the Meeting took place.

John Smith, who is a subscriber to Origami L has written many papers relevant
to paperfolding geometry. Some remain unpublished, while others appear  in
the pages of the magazine of the British Origami Society.

One of the best general introductions to the mathematics of paperfolding is
by the Frenchman, Jacques Justin. His articles originally appeared in French
in the pages of "Le Pli", the magazine of the French society, MFPP. They were
subsequently translated into English and somewhat revised and published in
British Origami in 1985. It has been the hope of several of us in the BOS
that these articles should be gathered together for publication as a separate
booklet, but various difficulties continue to prevent this.

It will be apparent from this piecemeal survey that sources for the study of
the geometry of paperfolding are not at all accessible. Sundara Row's
"Geometric Exercises in Paper Folding has already been mentioned in
Origami-L. Dover brought out a paper-backed reprint in1966. I do not know
whether it is still in their list. There is , incidentally some mystery about
this book. The original language in which it was written is uncertain. German
has been suggested, but this seems unlikely. Perhaps it was some Indian
language. And who was Sundara Row,  (or Rau , as his name is sometimes spelt
)?

Another elementary book, which may still be available is "Mathematics Through
Paper Folding" by Alton T. Johnson, which was published by the National
Council of Teachers of Mathematics (of the United States in 1975. It is a
rewriting of an earlier book, "Paper Folding for the Mathematics Class" by
Donovan A. Johnson, which was published in 1957. The address of the National
Council of Teachers of Mathematics is: 1096, Association Drive, Reston, VA
22091. The have, however, revised their publication policy and Johnson's
booklet may not now be available.

I give this information on the basis that some knowledge is better than none
and I realise that it will not be easy to get copies of the books I refer to.
I am very sorry that I do not have spare copies of the books and papers I
mention. It may be possible to obtain photocopies of some of them, but others
are to long for this to be reasonably practicable. The Fujimoto book, for
instance, has 206 pages. Then the problems of copyright should not be
forgotten. The Origami USA library may contain some of the books. But keep on
trying: it is quite surprising how the rarest book can crop up when least
expected.

David Lister.





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:15:44 -0300 (ADT)
From: BLUEEYS@delphi.com
Subject: origami messages

John Jernigan <jjernign@niia.net> wrote:
   > I do LOVE origami, i just don't like getting 20 pieces
      of mail each day.

   If you subscribe to the digest you can get all the
messages as a single piece of mail with a table of contents
at the top.  You can then read it with any text editor
(even DOS's EDIT) and save the parts you want to a file of
your choice. (Exact directives for this would depend on the
text editor used.)
   Just wanted to mention this. I hope it helps.





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:16:21 -0300 (ADT)
From: Charles Knuffke <Knuffke@Sirius.com>
Subject: BARF Newsletters (was re:Jeremy Shafer)

>
> A few weeks ago a thread was started about an Escher-esque model of hands
> folding themselves by Jeremy Shafer.  At the time Charles Knuffke mentioned
> that he may be able to post info about back issues of BARF.  Just wondering
> if it I missed the post, and how do I order back issues.  Particularly the
> one with the folding hands.
>

Hello All!

I just finished typing up an E-Mail Stationary Form with an index for all the
past BARF newsletters - sorry for the delay. If anyone is interested in the
newsletters, please send an E-Mail directly to me at
"Mailto:Knuffke@Sirius.com" with the phrase "BARF Newsletters" as the
subject, and I'll send out the index. This also includes info regarding
becoming a BARF Member. If all goes as planned, you should get a response
from me in less than 24 hours.

To avoid cluttering the Origami list, please be careful that you're not
posting to the listserv when sending the E-Mail to me (i.e. DO NOT use the
"reply" command, since most E-Mail software will pick up the origami-1
E-Mail address instead of mine.)

Thanks,

Charles Knuffke





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:41:41 -0300 (ADT)
From: DBSH47B@prodigy.com (MRS. JANET J HAMILTON)
Subject: Re: Need help with translation

-- [ From: Janet Hamilton * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --

>     Can anyone help with the Japanese word for the traditional
offering
>     table model (blintz base)?  Isao Honda's book calls it a "Sambo";
>     Hideaka(?) Sakata's book calls it a "Sanbo".  Which is correct?

My Japanese dictionary lists the following:

sanbou - 3 sides, small offering stand, 3 treasuresof Buddhism: Buddha,
sutras, and priesthood

Janet Hamilton
dbsh47b@prodigy.com





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:41:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: DBSH47B@prodigy.com (MRS. JANET J HAMILTON)
Subject: Re: NOA magazine

-- [ From: Janet Hamilton * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --

> Although I have been on the list for awhile, this is the first
message
> I've
> posted.  Does anyone know how I can subscribe to the NOA magazine?
How
> much
> does it cost per year?  Who do I send it to? etc...  Any and all
> information
> is welcome.

I don't have much information, just the following contact for NOA:

Nippon Origami Associacion, 1-096 Domir Gobancho, 12-Gobancho,
Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo, Japan

Janet Hamilton
dbsh47b@prodigy.com





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:06:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nick Robinson <nick@homelink.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Elementary fold

In message <199605090533.HAA00252@storm.certix.fr>, Vincent & Veronique
<osele@worldnet.fr> writes

> Crimp is 2 folds that are connected together on one side of the paper.

Are they not two folds symmetrical (usually) that intersect (usually) in
the centre of a folded edge?
cheers,

Nick Robinson
nick@homelink.demon.co.uk

***Origami is Sharing, not Selling***

Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:13:16 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re: Elementary fold

On Thu, 9 May 1996, Nick Robinson wrote:

> In message <199605090533.HAA00252@storm.certix.fr>, Vincent & Veronique
> <osele@worldnet.fr> writes
>
> > Crimp is 2 folds that are connected together on one side of the paper.
>
> Are they not two folds symmetrical (usually) that intersect (usually) in
> the centre of a folded edge?

A crimp is a pair of consecutive reverse folds, one being inside, and the
other being outside. It is the reverse fold version of a pleat.

Joseph Wu  <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>  <http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/jwu/origami.html>
Approach life like a voyage on a schooner. Enjoy the view. Explore the vessel.
Make friends with the Captain. Fish a little. And then get off when you get
Home.                                                     --Max Lucado





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:19:52 -0300 (ADT)
From: billlise@gol.com (Bill Lise)
Subject: Re: Need help with translation

At 11:56 PM 96.5.9, Kristine Tomlinson wrote:

>     Can anyone help with the Japanese word for the traditional offering
>     table model (blintz base)?  Isao Honda's book calls it a "Sambo";
>     Hideaka(?) Sakata's book calls it a "Sanbo".  Which is correct?
>
As someone, I believe pointed out, sanbo (it's a regular word, shouldn't
require capitalization) will be more acceptable to some people.
However, the way this is transliterated for non-Japanese is virtually
of no interest to Japanese themselves. The Japanese language is not
written wih our alphabet; the transliterations seen on signs in Japan, for
     example
are sometimes afterhoughts for visiting foreigners, and also serve
a certain "decorative" purpose, but they are not what Japanese use themselves.

On another note, the use of transliterations like sanbou (with the u) have
become popular as the number of people in Japan who use wordprocessors
increases. Before you get the kanji characters on a Japanese wordprocessor,
you input either either hiragana or romaji, and for a long o sound, the sequence
would indeed be "ou".

>     Also, somewhat less origami-related ...
>
>     I had a chop (stamp) made for signing my models.  The carver also did
>     the translation, but he's primarily an artist, so we had difficulty
>     communicating.
>
>     So, I didn't get to ask him why some chops are red characters on white,
>     while others are white characters on red.  Most Japanese ink paintings
>     I've seen have one of each (and then maybe publisher's and censor's
>     stamps).  Do any of you know if there's any meaning to the choice, or
>     know of sources you can point me to?  The artist is Chinese, but I
>     think the usage is consistent between China and Japan.

Being a carver of seals myself (in the usual material of stone, that is, not
     the animals <g>), as they are normally called (the term chop to me sounds
     more like a seal used for administrative purposes in an office, rather
     than for signing works of art), I

You are right about one seal impression being vermillion characters and
the other being white characters on a vermillion background, when there are
two seals.

When two seals are used, the top seal is a name seal having at least part of
the artist's real name (sometimes all of it).
The bottom seal has a "pen-name"--what is called a gagou (or simply gou) in
Japanese. Some artists have a number of such gou. In Japan, it is not
unusual for a gou to be granted by a teacher to a pupil.

In the above arrangement, it is customary to have the top seal (name seal) be
white characters on vermillion and to have the bottom seal be vermillion
characters on white background. In addition to these rudimentary conventions,
in the world of seal carving the style of characters can differ widely. For
example, there are some character styles that are totally unsuited to
white-on-vermillion impressions.

One thing I forgot to mention is that seal carving is (in China and Japan) an
art unto itself, and many calligraphy exhibitions have a separate category
for this, with a large number of seal impressions sitting alone in the
middle of the work, many times accompanied by the text that is carved on the
seal, which is usually a Chinese poem, or a Confucian or Taoist text in the case
of these seals-for-seals-sake works of art.

Hope all of this is of some interest. I only started carving seals about 10
     years ago,
although I have been in Japan for about 30 years (a patent translator and court
interperter in real life <g>).

Will apologies for a somewhat-off-topic note,.....

Bill Lise  /  Tokyo Translator & Interpreter
1-5-9-1101 Higashiyama, Meguro-ku, Tokyo 153
Tel: 03-3791-6870     Fax:  03-3715-2748
Cellular phone:  030-00-90023     Email:  billlise@gol.com





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 22:57:31 -0300 (ADT)
From: Edward Crankshaw <ecrankshaw@nps.navy.mil>
Subject: Origami Article

Greetings all,

I just came across a 'thread' for everyone. My sister came into work the
other night and showed me an article on cloth origami. Glenda Scott wrote
an article called "Origami to Go" which appears in the June/July 1996
copy of "Threads" magazine, a magazine for sewers.

What she does is to take fabric stiffener (e.g. Stiffy) and applies it to
the cloth, lays it out flat and after it dries, she folds the cloth into
models for use as purses. She provides diagrams for a wedge-shape purse,
a dollar-bill purse and a six unit triangular box (purse). The only
limitation appears to be imagination. She also gives advice on selecting
fabrics, decorations and starting out by making a paper model first.
Maybe we can get new members into the fold.

She states that "Cloth origami is virtually error-proof. if the folds
don't cooperate on your first try, relax. There are very few mistakes
that a hot iron won't fix." Now if only the same could be said for paper
(in general).

My sister is going to try to make one and I can't wait to see the
results.

Ed Crankshaw





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 23:30:36 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re: Washi paper

On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, Pat Slider wrote:

> >I often hear about WASHI PAPER. Can someone tell me what is it?
> >In which sort of models is it recommended to use this paper?
>
> Washi paper is a kind of handmade paper from Japan (although you can now
> get machine-made washi which isn't quite as nice). It is heavier than most
> paper and MUCH more durable....Eric Kenneway writes in "Complete Origami"
> that washi paper is often used for important documents, i.e. The Treaty of
> Versailles, that people would like to last forever.
>
> Most of the washi for origami is printed with stencilled designs, often
> with touches of gold. It is quite beautiful and feels silky.
>
> Because it is so thick, washi is really only appropriate for simple
> models....To show off the paper and the print, I like the models that have
> larger areas of unfolded paper, i.e. butterflies and boxes and ornaments.
> Wallets are nice in washi too....All of these models make beautiful gifts.

Several points:

1) "Washi paper" is redundant. "Wa" refers to things Japanese, and "shi"
means paper, so "washi" means Japanese paper (typically referring to
traditional handmade paper).

2) Any washi can be used for origami. Printed paper is usually called
"chiyogami" which means (I think) "decorated paper". Most washi relies on
its own inherent beauty, rather than on printed designs, for its appealing
nature.

3) Washi is not just for simple models. Techniques such as backcoating make
it suitable for many types of models. You can see samples of complex models
folded from washi on my web page (URL is listed below).

Joseph Wu  <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>  <http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/jwu/origami.html>
Approach life like a voyage on a schooner. Enjoy the view. Explore the vessel.
Make friends with the Captain. Fish a little. And then get off when you get
Home.                                                     --Max Lucado





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 23:43:22 -0300 (ADT)
From: Bill Hall <billhall@computek.net>
Subject: Re: Signing off.

I just switched internet providers (twice! but that's another story).
For those trying to sign off, here's a copy of the message that I sent
that worked:

>Subject:
>   Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 21:27:17 -0500
>  From:  Bill Hall <billhall@medport.com>
>    To:  listserver@nstn.ca
>
>unsubscribe origami-l

Important things to note:
1. NOTHING in the subject
2. NOTHING in the message except "unsubscribe origami-l" (They know who
you are from the message header). Make sure it starts in column 1 of
line 1 of the message. Put everything lower case.
3. You MUST send them a message with your browser set to the same E-Mail
address you had when you subscribed.
4. You MUST send the message to "listserver@nstn.ca"

If you do all of the above, it only takes a few minutes. BTW, if you
think you'll EVER need to unsubscribe some time in the future, why not
save this message to your disk drive (use "file" | "save as" in Netscape
- I can't advise you on other browsers). Then, you'll have the
instructions when you need them.

DLister891@aol.com wrote:
>
> I wonder if the following will be of any help to those wishing to unsubscribe
> from Origami-L:

>>>>>>>> CUT! <<<<<<<<<<<

>      "All requests should be addressed to listserver@nstn.ca.       "

--
Bill Hall <billhall@computek.net> Dallas, Texas, USA
Where go the poet's lines? Answer, ye evening tapers!
Ye auburn locks, ye golden curls, Speak from your folded papers!
                     -- Oliver Wendell Holmes





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 23:50:43 -0300 (ADT)
From: Steve Arlow <yorick@conch.aa.msen.com>
Subject: [META] Re: origami messages

BLUEEYS@delphi.com writes:
>John Jernigan <jjernign@niia.net> wrote:
>   > I do LOVE origami, i just don't like getting 20 pieces
>      of mail each day.
>
>   If you subscribe to the digest you can get all the
>messages as a single piece of mail with a table of contents
>at the top.  [...]

You have both touched on the biggest, most fundamental
shortcoming of these mailing-lists.  If you are a regular
subscriber, your normal mail gets buried in list-mail,
and if you have important uses for your email (work, for
example), this can be a serious problem.  If OTOH you get
the digest version, you are effectively reduced to a
passive reader, rather than an active participant, because
unless you have endless hours to waste in front of your
computer, clipping out pieces and editing header-lines,
you are seldom if ever going to follow up on the list.

The solution to this (outside of, say, getting a UseNet
newsgroup -- which for some reason the very suggestion
of which produces a tremendous (and largely uninformed)
backlash on Origami-L) would require two components:

  (1)  A fully-threaded mail-reader.  At present, there
       is finally one (count it, one) available as the
       POP3 client in Netscape Navigator 2.0.  There
       obviously need to be more threaded mailers for
       various platforms.  If I ever become independently
       wealthy, it'll be the third or fourth piece of
       software that I write.

  (2)  A List-processor which respects and preserves the
       "In-Reply-To: " header.  Some exist, the one we
       are using does not.  Either way, if enough of (1)
       were out there, (2) could be easily arranged.

In the mean time, however, we are stuck with what we've
got.  Those with procmail, or who have their own systems
and can just set up an account for each mailing list can
avoid the avalanch effect that John Jernigan complains of,
otherwise the only alternaltive is the digest, which will
leave you mostly a lurker.

  -- Steve Arlow

--
 "Your dog stuffs his tongue up your nose.   |  Steve Arlow, Yorick Software
  It's a good omen.  You press on."          |  39336 Polo Club Dr. #103,
     -- Bernie E. Mireault, in _The JAM..._  |  Farmington Hills, MI  48335
            (.sig contest has been won)      |  http://www.msen.com/~yorick





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:28:17 -0300 (ADT)
From: billlise@gol.com (Bill Lise)
Subject: Re: Washi paper

At 11:30 AM 96.5.10, Joseph Wu wrote:

> 2) Any washi can be used for origami. Printed paper is usually called
> "chiyogami" which means (I think) "decorated paper". Most washi relies on
> its own inherent beauty, rather than on printed designs, for its appealing
> nature.

Chiyogami will be defined in dictionaries as a word which was first  applied to
paper that was woodblock printed with colorful designs, so  "decorated
paper" for chiyogami seems fine. However, *chiyo* itself oddly just means
*a thousand generations*, or by extension a long, long time; an eternity.
Don't know why this was applied in this case.

Bill Lise @ going to visit Origami Hausu (House)  in Tokyo today for the first
     time.

Bill Lise  /  Tokyo Translator & Interpreter
1-5-9-1101 Higashiyama, Meguro-ku, Tokyo 153
Tel: 03-3791-6870     Fax:  03-3715-2748
Cellular phone:  030-00-90023     Email:  billlise@gol.com





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:41:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re: information

On Sat, 4 May 1996, Eric Andersen wrote:

> At 04:50 PM 5/3/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >I need some origami.gif, could you told me where i can find then.
> >Thank for all.
> >
>
> Well, I have a lot of pictures of models on my page but they're mostly in
> jpeg format to conserve space. However, most software such as LView,
> Paintshop, PhotoShop, etc. will do the conversion for you.
>
> Here are the URLs for a few pages with really great pictures:

<list deleted>

In light of recent discussions, please be sure to get permission before
copying the pictures!

Joseph Wu  <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>  <http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/jwu/origami.html>
Approach life like a voyage on a schooner. Enjoy the view. Explore the vessel.
Make friends with the Captain. Fish a little. And then get off when you get
Home.                                                     --Max Lucado





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:53:54 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re: Joseph Wu folds

On Mon, 6 May 1996 OrigamiCMM@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 96-05-06 15:24:06 EDT, Oded wrote:
>
>> I saw In Joseph Wu's origami page pictures of some really great folds,
>> especially the myth creatures. I'd like know where can diagrams of these
>> folds be found. The 3D Chimera with 3 heads is *GREAT!* >>
>
> The Chimera is found in Montroll's "Mythological creatures and the Chinese
> Zodiac in Origami"  I, myself, just picked this up last Saturday, and my
> favorite models are
> Western Dragon, Griffin, Boar, Unicorn, well, pretty much everything.  I made
> the Western Dragon out of 7" kami, and it looked like a gnarled dog, so I
> guess I will start using larger paper.

Sorry, Chris! The Chimaera that Oded is referring to is mine. It's a
totally different one from John's, and, like most of my work, has not yet
been diagrammed. As I keep promising, soon! 8)

Joseph Wu  <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>  <http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/jwu/origami.html>
Approach life like a voyage on a schooner. Enjoy the view. Explore the vessel.
Make friends with the Captain. Fish a little. And then get off when you get
Home.                                                     --Max Lucado





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:31:59 -0300 (ADT)
From: Steve Arlow <yorick@conch.aa.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Origami Analogies (was Re: Selling models; [Q] for pros...)

Valerie Vann writes:
>
>[Eric says: So does this mean that making a Montroll model
> is technically illegal?
>
>Emphatically NO!
>
>Copyrighting the model means the same as copyrighting a
>sculpture or painting. You're copyrighting the physical
>(tangible) expression of an artistic idea, which essentially
>means that it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone to make a copy. That's
>why most folders - as I said - consider copyrighting the
>individual models no more useful than simply signing it.
>
>It has no effect whatever on someone else making "a copy",
>even if they use "the same" materials, it won't be "the same"
>as the the actual physical model you copyrighted.

Emphatically, you are wrong.

If you copyright a sculpture or painting, it does in fact
mean that it is illegal for someone to copy it, and it is
not "IMPOSSIBLE" for someone to make a copy.  If someone
does duplicate a painting or sculpture, it most certainly
*is* a violation of the copyright.  Otherwise, why would
there be provisions for copyrighting paintings and
sculptures!?!

>In real life, the only copyrightable aspects of origami for
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>which copyright serves any useful purpose are diagrams (it is
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is far from clear, as I explained in my previious
posting.

>the "art work" or drawings, not the IDEA or PROCESS, that are
>being copyrighted; they could be drawings of your dog as far
>as the copyright protection goes), video or audio tapes, written
>directions, computer graphics and digital forms of diagrams,
>videos, audios, which all come under the
>copyright protection in the same way other art works, written,
>audio, video etc. works do.

In this you are correct, if it is only the diagrams that are
copyrighted.

>Maybe a closer analogy would be that you can't copyright a
>dance performance. You CAN copyright a written description
>or coding of the choreography, the music, a video of the
>performance, etc.

Here again you are dead wrong.  One *can* copyright a dance
performance, provided that a video record of the performance
*exists*, or that notation of the choreography *exists*.  And
it is not just the record, or the notation, but *the dance or
pantomime itself* which is covered by copyright, and protected
from unauthorized performance, recording, etc. etc..  What one
cannot copyright is a performance without notation, and of
which no record was made.  And this makes sense; how could
such a copyright ever be enforced?

The form to file with the U. S. Registrar of Copyrights to
register the copyright on a choreographic or pantomime
performance is form PA.

I spent well over two hours on fact-checking before I posted
my last letter on the subject, and it looks as though Ms.
Vann didn't even bother to check the link referenced in my
footnotes.

People, PLEASE take the time to *at least* read "Copyright
Basics" from the U. S. Copyright Office before making
pronouncements of misinformation as fact.  You can even get
it on the Web.  If you want to find out more, a good place
to start is the Library of Congress, at
<A HREF="http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/">The U. S.
Copyright Office Home Page</A>, or if you don't have WWW
access, use Gopher: "gopher -p 1/copyright marvel.loc.gov".
If you can't do that either, you can get any of this info
faxed to you by calling 202-707-2600.  If you don't even
have touch-tone and a fax machine, you can always use
Snail-mail or your local library.

  -- Steve Arlow

--
 "Your dog stuffs his tongue up your nose.   |  Steve Arlow, Yorick Software
  It's a good omen.  You press on."          |  39336 Polo Club Dr. #103,
     -- Bernie E. Mireault, in _The JAM..._  |  Farmington Hills, MI  48335
            (.sig contest has been won)      |  http://www.msen.com/~yorick





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:00:40 -0300 (ADT)
From: JMontroll@aol.com
Subject: More on Selling models

It is interesting reading all your comments about selling models. Do keep a
few things in mind. Most authors make sooo little you won't believe it. We
are writing to contribute to the art but are grateful our lives don't depend
on it. Since I also have my own publishing company I probably make more than
most (per book). Still, if you sell one of my models for $2 you have made
more than I did from selling the book to you (something to do with the
bookshop, the printer, the distributor, and many other middlemen not leaving
much left to the author along with trying to keep the price down!!). I do
know people sell my models but I'm not sure if there is much I can do about
it. Of course if you sell for $2 what do I care, but I would be upset if you
sold one for $100 without compensation to me.

As far as the creativity issue, be very careful. You say Robert Lang gets
inspiration from others. We all do, that is the only way for art to develop.
I've seen people fold my dogs, change the last two folds to make another
breed and claim it theirs. That is as creative as reading a chapter in a math
book and doing one of the problems at the end of a section. Then you question
the similary between Robert Neale's dragon and my kuehneosaurus. (They were
independent designs.) The method is -how shall I say it- a rather primitive
use of the bird base which I have seen in dozens of models by many creators
from eight-pointed stars to pegasus.

Then you have reduced all of our creative input into a cook book! Anyway, how
come you are able to sell models at all? All I get (daily and lots of) are
requests for my models (for nothing). I guess I should tell people that I
will call Betty Crocker and ask her to bake me a cake. When I receive it I
will fold them a model.

John

*Fold a fish for a man and he will have a folded fish. Teach a man how to
fold a fish and he will be full of folded fish.*





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:13:46 -0300 (ADT)
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re: More on Selling models

On Fri, 10 May 1996 JMontroll@aol.com wrote:

<many good points deleted for the sake of space>

> Then you have reduced all of our creative input into a cook book! Anyway, how
> come you are able to sell models at all? All I get (daily and lots of) are
> requests for my models (for nothing). I guess I should tell people that I
> will call Betty Crocker and ask her to bake me a cake. When I receive it I
> will fold them a model.
>
> John
>
> *Fold a fish for a man and he will have a folded fish. Teach a man how to
> fold a fish and he will be full of folded fish.*

John, we don't always see eye-to-eye, but this time you're right on the
money. (To everyone else, John and I agree on MOST things... <grin>) I had
to try hard not to laugh out loud in the middle of the office... 8)

Basically, everyone wants to share origami. But taking advantage of the
creators' generosity only leads to them not wanting to share any more. If
you are going to profit by someone else's creativity, at least get their
permission first!

Joseph Wu  <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>  <http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/jwu/origami.html>
Approach life like a voyage on a schooner. Enjoy the view. Explore the vessel.
Make friends with the Captain. Fish a little. And then get off when you get
Home.                                                     --Max Lucado





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:59:49 -0300 (ADT)
From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Subject: Re: [META] Re: origami messages

>>>>> "SA" == Steve Arlow <yorick@conch.aa.msen.com> writes:

SA> The solution to this (outside of, say, getting a UseNet newsgroup --
SA> which for some reason the very suggestion of which produces a
SA> tremendous (and largely uninformed) backlash on Origami-L) would
SA> require two components:

SA>   (1) A fully-threaded mail-reader.  At present, there is finally one
SA> (count it, one) available as the POP3 client in Netscape Navigator 2.0.

There's definitely more than one threaded mail reader.  For me, email from
this list looks exactly like a newsgroup.  Exactly.  It is filtered,
processed, scored according to my tastes and past reading habits and
presented to me in an orderly fashion.  It does not interfere with my
normal mail, or mail from the thirty other mailing lists I belong to.  I
get nearly a thousand messages per day.  This kind of load can be dealt
with with proper software.  Too bad this kind of software hasn't really
made it down to the non-hacker user community yet.

I may be experimenting with a different kind of distribution mechanism that
has the ability to look like a news server (no mail coming to you, you ask
for each article to be sent).  If you have a newsreader that can connect to
more than one server it may be of use.  I already have a server that runs
over FTP but it requires special software to access (namely the newsreader
I'm using).  I may be starting a trial run in the next couple of weeks;
perhaps I'll use the origami list for a test.

I also have a web-based interface that can be used like a newsreader.  Look
at <URL:http://www.hpc.uh.edu/fvwm/archive/> for a demo.  There are other
ways to distribute information than newsgroups and mailing lists.

ObOrigami: Has anyone figured out how Jim Plank makes the 5 interlocking
tetrahedra out of penultimate modules?  I can't seem to figure out how the
big 5-way joints go together.  (A picture is at
<URL:http:/http://www.cs.utk.edu/~plank/plank/pics/origami/origami.html>.)
--
      Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1
System Manager:  University of Houston High Performance Computing Center
                1994 PC800 "Kuroneko"      DoD# 1723





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.CA>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:51:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: Steve Arlow <yorick@conch.aa.msen.COM>
Subject: Re: [META] Re: origami messages

Jason L. Tibbitts III <tibbs@uh.edu> writes:
>"SA" == Steve Arlow <yorick@conch.aa.msen.com> writes:
>
>SA> The solution to this (outside of, say, getting a UseNet newsgroup --
>SA> which for some reason the very suggestion of which produces a
>SA> tremendous (and largely uninformed) backlash on Origami-L) would
>SA> require two components:
>
>SA>   (1) A fully-threaded mail-reader.  At present, there is finally one
>SA> (count it, one) available as the POP3 client in Netscape Navigator 2.0.
>
>There's definitely more than one threaded mail reader.

That is of course possible; I don't know every mailer in the
world.  :)  But NN2.0 contained the first one *I'd* ever seen.

>                                                        For me, email from
>this list looks exactly like a newsgroup.  Exactly.

Okay, I gotta know how.  I've just gone back and double-checked,
and there are no "In-Reply-To: " headers, and of course no
news-type "References: " headers, in any email from this list.
So how can you possibly have it threaded?  It seems to me that
the best that any program could do would be to sort by topic and
date, perhaps applying some heuristics on strings like "Re:",
"(fwd)", and "forwarded" in the subject line.

I know that if I say it's impossible, I will somehow be proven
wrong, so please, prove me wrong!  Does your program actually
analyze the text of the body of each letter, with heuristics that
interpret the most common quoting schemes, and figure out the
threading that way?  How often does it err?

>I may be experimenting with a different kind of distribution mechanism that
>has the ability to look like a news server (no mail coming to you, you ask
>for each article to be sent).

This sounds like a POP3 server, but it uses NNTP instead?  I
would suspect that could be a security problem.

>                               If you have a newsreader that can connect to
>more than one server it may be of use.

That I have, no problem.  I'd like to try this out.

>                                        I already have a server that runs
>over FTP but it requires special software to access (namely the newsreader
>I'm using).  I may be starting a trial run in the next couple of weeks;
>perhaps I'll use the origami list for a test.

Interesting.

>I also have a web-based interface that can be used like a newsreader.  Look
>at <URL:http://www.hpc.uh.edu/fvwm/archive/> for a demo.  There are other
>ways to distribute information than newsgroups and mailing lists.

Well, I can't reach uh.edu right now, but from traceroute it
looks as though that is because a piece of backbone is down,
rather than any problem at your end.  I will try later to take a
look at this, I certainly am interested.  (This, of course, is
a problem that newsgroups, by virtue of their distributed nature,
avoid in a way that mailing lists and Web servers cannot.)

Of course, if you do the whole thing via (secure?) HTTP
connections, implement the whole thing locally on the server, and
stick with least-common-denominator HTML output, you could get
tremendous uniformity of interface.  It might be a great way to
run a fully-threaded mailing list, moderated or unmoderated.  I've
seen a lot of cutsey little cgi-bin comment boards and the like,
but this is the first time I have heard something like this
proposed.  Yet the idea seems obvious in retrospect.  I like it!

  -- Steve Arlow

--
 "Your dog stuffs his tongue up your nose.   |  Steve Arlow, Yorick Software
  It's a good omen.  You press on."          |  39336 Polo Club Dr. #103,
     -- Bernie E. Mireault, in _The JAM..._  |  Farmington Hills, MI  48335
            (.sig contest has been won)      |  http://www.msen.com/~yorick





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:54:53 -0300 (ADT)
From: Steve Arlow <yorick@conch.aa.msen.com>
Subject: Re: [META] Re: origami messages

Sorry everyone,

I just accidentallly sent a personal reply to the entire list.
My current keyboard is suffering increasingly from button-bounce,
it will have to be replaced.

Again, my sincere apologies.

  -- Steve Arlow

--
 "Your dog stuffs his tongue up your nose.   |  Steve Arlow, Yorick Software
  It's a good omen.  You press on."          |  39336 Polo Club Dr. #103,
     -- Bernie E. Mireault, in _The JAM..._  |  Farmington Hills, MI  48335
            (.sig contest has been won)      |  http://www.msen.com/~yorick





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.CA>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 05:19:22 -0300 (ADT)
From: ciarlma6@etud.dauphine.FR (ciarlet mathieu)
Subject: Shops in New-York

Hi everyone,

I need some piece of information : My girlfriend is to go to New-York coming
     July (maybe
I'll be there too but that really isn't sure), thus I'd like to know which are
     the best
shops to buy origamy books and papers (As a matter of fact , isn't Dover
     publications
based in NY ?).
Thanks for the information, You'll give me.

bye, bye

Mathieu Ciarlet         ciarlma6@etud.dauphine.fr
http://www.dauphine.fr/~ciarlma6/
"May the fold be with you"





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:54:54 -0300 (ADT)
From: Steve Marsh <marsh@anvil.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Jeremy Shafer

In Message-ID: <9605091415.AA09223@maggie.pentek>,
bob@maggie.pentek.com (Bob) writes:

> Hi All,
>
> A few weeks ago a thread was started about an Escher-esque model of
>  hands folding themselves by Jeremy Shafer.  At the time Charles
> Knuffke mentioned that he may be able to post info about back
> issues of BARF.  Just wondering if it I missed the post, and how
> do I order back issues.  Particularly the one with the folding hands.

Is there *any* chance that this diagram could be made available on the net?
(Jeremy?) I would *love* to check it out. Alas, my own skills are far too
limited to successfully create a similar model...

----
  Steve Marsh  <marsh@anvil.nrl.navy.mil>   $^)





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:55:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: "Shi-Yew Chen (a.k.a. Sy)" <sychen@leatherback.nist.gov>
Subject: Oops! Re: Need help with translation

At 03:08 PM 5/9/96 -0300, I wrote:
>
>I enclose its hiragana and kanji form as following ASCII picture in case you
>are curious.
>

My brain did not work :-<. Sorry for the wrong "paste" for kanji in my
previous mail. Sanbou should be

                      *
 ************         *
                      *
               ****************
                     *
                     *
                     *
  **********         *******
                    **     *
                    *      *
                    *      *
                   **      *
                   *      **
                  **      *
***************  **       *

|-------------------------------------------------------\
|  _  Sy Chen <chens@iia.org or sychen@enh.nist.gov>    |\
| |_| Folding Page http://www.iia.org/~chens/pprfld.htm --\





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:37:43 -0300 (ADT)
From: mike <76003.3034@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: More on Selling models

Just wondering  when were the bases(bird, waterbomb,  etc....) created and who
created them. So every time they appear in a book the creators are credited and
given compensation right?

     Mke Henderson
     76003.3034@compuserve.com





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:47:28 -0300 (ADT)
From: Jeannine Mosely <j9@concentra.com>
Subject: Re: [META] Re: origami messages

You wrote:

   The solution to this (outside of, say, getting a UseNet
   newsgroup -- which for some reason the very suggestion
   of which produces a tremendous (and largely uninformed)
   backlash on Origami-L) would require two components:

You complain that that backlash against newsgroups is "largely
uniformed".  Some of it is, yes, but how can you argue in face of the
large number of us that don't get them?  Don't tell someone on a
budget, whose employer doesn't provide any non-professional groups to
go get their own ISP.  Not everyone can afford it.  And now that
France has passed its own version of the "Communications Decency Act",
a lot of their ISPs are dropping all newsfeeds completely!





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:17:59 -0300 (ADT)
From: Kristine Tomlinson <ktomlinson@platinum.com>
Subject: Re: Need help with translation

    Hi Will, Sy, Janet, and Bill (and others),

    Thank-you all for your responses.  I should have known the answer would
    not be "simple" :-).  Interesting two of you mention a three-sided
    stand.  I'm familiar with two variations of the model: one with a
    straight base (like a "skirt" below the top), the other with four
    pointed legs.

    In each case, however, the model is a four-sided rectangular shape.  By
    chance, I happen to have Honda's book at work today.  He includes a
    line-drawing of an actual sanbo/ou -- which is a little different than
    the model.  The corners are squared to create a long-sided hexagon.
    The top has a rim all the way around it.

    I have seen photographs of identical offering stands in the following
    cases: 1. in front of Shinto alters to hold saki, 2. as miniatures in
    brass placed on Buddhist family alters/shrines in the home.

    I've always assumed this origami model pre-dates 1845, the publication
    of the Kan-no-mado, but have no direct evidence.

    Does anyone know of a true, 3-legged sanbo model?

    Bill, thank-you for your interesting explanation of seals. What luck to
    have a carver on the list!  Mine is a "pen-name" and I'm happy to say
    in the correct colors.  If you don't mind, I've got more questions and
    would like to e-mail you directly.

    Thanks again to you all,

    Kristine
    ktomlinson@trinzic.com





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:27:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: Jeannine Mosely <j9@concentra.com>
Subject: Re: Origami Article

Ed Crankshaw wrote:

   I just came across a 'thread' for everyone. My sister came into work the
   other night and showed me an article on cloth origami. Glenda Scott wrote
   an article called "Origami to Go" which appears in the June/July 1996
   copy of "Threads" magazine, a magazine for sewers.

   What she does is to take fabric stiffener (e.g. Stiffy) and applies it to
   the cloth, lays it out flat and after it dries, she folds the cloth into
   models for use as purses. She provides diagrams for a wedge-shape purse,
   a dollar-bill purse and a six unit triangular box (purse). The only
   limitation appears to be imagination. She also gives advice on selecting
   fabrics, decorations and starting out by making a paper model first.
   Maybe we can get new members into the fold.

   She states that "Cloth origami is virtually error-proof. if the folds
   don't cooperate on your first try, relax. There are very few mistakes
   that a hot iron won't fix." Now if only the same could be said for paper
   (in general).

   My sister is going to try to make one and I can't wait to see the
   results.

I saw this article, and while it is good, I was quite shocked by the
author's assertion that she invented "cloth origami".  I know the
topic has been discussed before on this list.

        -- jeannine mosely





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:35:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com
Subject: box and frog source?

All this talk about crediting designers has made me pause before
teaching two favorite models to someone who wants models to teach
to a group of teachers.

Looking at the origami index in the archives, as near as I can tell,
the business card jumping frog and the 8.5 x 11 inch open box*
are either traditional or from an unknown source.

Can anyone tell me otherwise?

Thanks
Lisa
Lisa_Hodsdon@hmco.com

*In hopes of clarifying which models I mean:
business card frog starts with a water bomb base at one end.
open box starts with cupboard door folds in both direction.





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:38:51 -0300 (ADT)
From: Steve Arlow <yorick@conch.aa.msen.com>
Subject: Re: [META] Re: origami messages

I was trying to preemptively avoid reopening this particular
thread again, and after posting this response, I will ignore
further discussion of it for the time being.

>You wrote:
>
>   The solution to this (outside of, say, getting a UseNet
>   newsgroup -- which for some reason the very suggestion
>   of which produces a tremendous (and largely uninformed)
>   backlash on Origami-L) would require two components:
>
>You complain that that backlash against newsgroups is "largely
>uniformed".  Some of it is, yes, but how can you argue in face of the
>large number of us that don't get them?

With a little software, a mailing-list and a newsgroup can
be gated to each other.  Any filtering desired could also be
added done at the gateway.

And no, I have never suggested that people without newsfeeds
go take a flying leap, or anything of the sort.

  -- Steve Arlow

--
 "Your dog stuffs his tongue up your nose.   |  Steve Arlow, Yorick Software
  It's a good omen.  You press on."          |  39336 Polo Club Dr. #103,
     -- Bernie E. Mireault, in _The JAM..._  |  Farmington Hills, MI  48335
            (.sig contest has been won)      |  http://www.msen.com/~yorick





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:51:32 -0300 (ADT)
From: unhinged@yrkpa.kias.com
Subject: Re: Origami Article

Speaking of cloth origami, when I was 12, I used to work at a craft shop
"ironing" simple origami pigeons out of cloth on a 'piecework' wage :)
Mom was at the laundromat next door, and the only other diversion
available was sinking double-thick waterbombs into other laundry baskets

Rob

On Fri, 10 May 1996, Jeannine Mosely wrote:

>
>
> Ed Crankshaw wrote:
>
>    I just came across a 'thread' for everyone. My sister came into work the
>    other night and showed me an article on cloth origami. Glenda Scott wrote
>    an article called "Origami to Go" which appears in the June/July 1996
>    copy of "Threads" magazine, a magazine for sewers.
>
>    What she does is to take fabric stiffener (e.g. Stiffy) and applies it to
>    the cloth, lays it out flat and after it dries, she folds the cloth into
>    models for use as purses. She provides diagrams for a wedge-shape purse,
>    a dollar-bill purse and a six unit triangular box (purse). The only
>    limitation appears to be imagination. She also gives advice on selecting
>    fabrics, decorations and starting out by making a paper model first.
>    Maybe we can get new members into the fold.
>
>    She states that "Cloth origami is virtually error-proof. if the folds
>    don't cooperate on your first try, relax. There are very few mistakes
>    that a hot iron won't fix." Now if only the same could be said for paper
>    (in general).
>
>    My sister is going to try to make one and I can't wait to see the
>    results.
>
> I saw this article, and while it is good, I was quite shocked by the
> author's assertion that she invented "cloth origami".  I know the
> topic has been discussed before on this list.
>
>       -- jeannine mosely





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:08:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: chall@scsn.net (Carol Hall)
Subject: Re: Selling models; [Q] for pros...

Most of the time talk of copyright simply makes my head hurt... there is so
much disagreement, even within the legal community, what with expanding
technology and international issues.  I just wanted to add one bit:

When I checked with a local copyright attorney, he made a distinction
between copying something finished (like a sculpture) and selling the copy,
and making something from published instructions: a published form which
invites duplication.  (I do not know any more than that - I never wanted to
be an attorney!  And I'm not implying that the letter of the law is all that
should be considered here.)

But from the above, I wonder about the case of Disney.  That company is well
known for going after the grandmothers who made little Susie a Snow White
costume for halloween.  If I remember correctly, even after they allowed a
pattern company to publish patterns, they still managed to retain tight
control over how those costumes were used.  Anyone know?

Carol Hall
chall@scsn.net





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:08:27 -0300 (ADT)
From: stevew@empnet.com
Subject: Re: More on Selling models

On Fri, 10 May 1996, JMontroll@aol.com wrote:
>It is interesting reading all your comments about selling models. Do keep a
>few things in mind. Most authors make sooo little you won't believe it. We
>are writing to contribute to the art but are grateful our lives don't depend
>on it. Since I also have my own publishing company I probably make more than
>most (per book). Still, if you sell one of my models for $2 you have made
>more than I did from selling the book to you (something to do with the
>bookshop, the printer, the distributor, and many other middlemen not leaving
>much left to the author along with trying to keep the price down!!). I do
>know people sell my models but I'm not sure if there is much I can do about
>it. Of course if you sell for $2 what do I care, but I would be upset if you
>sold one for $100 without compensation to me.
>
>As far as the creativity issue, be very careful. You say Robert Lang gets
>inspiration from others. We all do, that is the only way for art to develop.
>I've seen people fold my dogs, change the last two folds to make another
>breed and claim it theirs. That is as creative as reading a chapter in a
math
>book and doing one of the problems at the end of a section. Then you
question
>the similary between Robert Neale's dragon and my kuehneosaurus. (They were
>independent designs.) The method is -how shall I say it- a rather primitive
>use of the bird base which I have seen in dozens of models by many creators
>from eight-pointed stars to pegasus.
>
>Then you have reduced all of our creative input into a cook book! Anyway,
how
>come you are able to sell models at all? All I get (daily and lots of) are
>requests for my models (for nothing). I guess I should tell people that I
>will call Betty Crocker and ask her to bake me a cake. When I receive it I
>will fold them a model.
>
>John
>
>*Fold a fish for a man and he will have a folded fish. Teach a man how to
>fold a fish and he will be full of folded fish.*
>
>
        Maybe these discussions have become so esoteric that we've lost the
simple truth somewhere.  No discussion would be possible if the magnificent
models weren't diagrammed in an easily accessible books, such as one of
yours.  I'm sure I represent everyone on the list when I offer our apologies
for any offensive analogies or uninformed opinions.
        Please don't punish us by refusing to publish any more diagrams!

        Steve Woodmansee
        Stevew@empnet.com





Return-path: <origami-l@nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:11:56 -0300 (ADT)
From: chall@scsn.net (Carol Hall)
Subject: legal challenges?

All this talk about copyright seems to leave out the bottom line.  Has
anyone sued for violation?  Is there case law regarding origami?  With the
number of books published which do not credit known designers, seems like
someone could do a test case if it was really important.  Publishing houses
which routinely put out books which rip designers off would be less likely
to so publish if a suit had been filed. (Things might be more difficult with
the selling of models, but the legal status seems more ambiguous concerning
that.)

 Now, I'm not one to be cheering the increasingly litigious society, but if
designers are truly angry,......

Carol Hall
chall@scsn.net
