




Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 04:34:12 ADT
From: chermesh@bgumail.bgu.ac.il (Ran Chermesh)
Subject: Origami on a file

Shalom from Israel,
        Video aside, are there any pc files with origami instructions? I know
the classic program which is held on most bbs's. But, are there any other?

                     Ran

Ran Chermesh                                  E - M A I L
Behavioral Sciences Dept.                     ===========
Ben-Gurion University                  Internet: CHERMESH@BGUVM.BGU.AC.IL
Beer-Sheva 84105                                 CHERMESH@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL
Israel                                 Bitnet  : CHERMESH@BGUVM.BITNET





Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 12:28:48 ADT
From: ckendall@carl.org (Chris Kendall)
Subject: Origami programs

>       Video aside, are there any pc files with origami instructions? I know
>the classic program which is held on most bbs's. But, are there any other?

I am not familiar with the program Ran mentions, but since seeing the query
that began this series a germ of an idea has been, well, germinating.

It seems to me that current hardware (CD-ROMS, PC-TV, and massive storage)
and the software that accompanies it should make it possible to compile a
library of design instructions that could be manipulated to suit the needs
of the user.  That is to say, brief video strips, stored in RAM, could be
stopped and started, sped up or slowed down, stepped through, even
annotated by the user with bookmarks, that could be clicked on to bring up
notes about problems they ran into at particular points, and how they
solved them.  These videos could be animated drawings, which would require
less storage and memory, or live subjects, particularly if CD-ROM was
employed.

If all this sounds very blue sky that's because it is.  But the tools for
compiling such a utility are readily available.  It's unclear to me how
much of a market there would be for this software.  Since the subscribers
to this list are surely the most representative sample of the conjunction
of the two groups, people-into-origami and the-computer-literate (and if
there is another such sample, please let me know), I'd like to hear what
you have to say about it.

At the very least, providing I find time and energy in the immediate
future, I might compile a bare-bones example of this utility to be
distributed to a group of beta-testers, people with the necessary tools for
adding designs to the library, or, for that matter, anyone who asks nicely.

If this flies like one of Nakamura's airplanes, then eventually a CD-ROM
home-and-school version could be marketed, with attendant royalties to
contributors and designers (Are you listening, Mr. Montroll?) and the
computer world could be made safe for paper-folding.

Increasingly yours,

Chris Kendall
85 Ogden St. #31
Denver, CO 80218

ckendall@carl.org

P.S. I belong also to a Shakespeare discussion group whose credo includes
a respect for works-in-progress that members want to feel free to discuss
with their colleagues without fear of having their ideas stolen.  I'm
confident that this origami group is made up of souls of at least as gentle
a persuasion.  If someone is already developing this idea, please let me
know.  Perhaps we can collaborate, or perhaps I'll be content to await your
work, relieved of the burden of following through on this pipe dream.  But
if this is the first you've heard of this idea, and you find yourself
equipped to beat my horse to market, gentle reader, forbear.





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 10:07:56 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Re: Video on Origami

        I have considered producing a video on our local public access
also, I am already a member that was why I started to rent videos on
origami in the first place.  I did find a better one in our library this
last weekend.  I though it was better because it allowed the viewer to
first watch the fold and then gave them time to do it themselves. However,
it gave very little history of the art and did not talk at all about the
different authors that are out there.  Why not introduce the audience to
the different authors such as Harbin, Montroll or Yoshizawa?  They all
include beginner models in their books too.
        Both videos had a camera shot from above.  It seems the best
place to position the camera.  Is this what you found?  When you made
your video, what problems did you have with it?  Did you give the creators
of the different models credit?  Is it a violation of a copy right to
show a model - from lets say Montroll - even if you give credit and there
is no profit made from the video?

        On another subject, I just found a wonder model of a dog by
Gay Merrill Gross in her book _New Ideas for Paperfolding_.  It has
caught the spirit of a hound perfectly!
        I'm having trouble finding a good model of a cat though.  Any
suggestions?

Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 14:50:48 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Video on Origami

You should try to include an "extra" session at the end to explore advanced
concepts.. that would provide incentive for those who are adept at folding to
purchase it.. I for one am a little annoyed by the slew of simple "mainstream"
origami directions.. everyone I"ve talked to (in the non-paperfolder crowd) has
no concept of the true range of the art.. (e.g. what you can truly accomplish
WITHOUT scissors!)
Montrol?





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 17:07:37 -0300 (ADT)
From: ackerman <ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org>
Subject: Re: Video on Origami

>
> You should try to include an "extra" session at the end to explore advanced
> concepts.. that would provide incentive for those who are adept at folding to
> purchase it.. I for one am a little annoyed by the slew of simple "mainstream"
> origami directions.. everyone I"ve talked to (in the non-paperfolder crowd) has
> no concept of the true range of the art.. (e.g. what you can truly accomplish
> WITHOUT scissors!)
> Montrol?

Montrol? Hah! Try Peter Engel!
Seriously, though, I think Engel is complicated because his directions are not
as clear as Montrol's.
Now back to videos. I have never seen one on origami, and I am trying to
imagine if I would get any enjoyment out of viewing one. I can spend hours and
hours on a model but what attraction does one find in viewing an origami
video?





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 17:14:16 ADT
From: ckendall@carl.org (Chris Kendall)
Subject: CD-ROM programming

Mr. Green:

I think the CD-ROM platform would be wide open for inclusion of any level
of instruction, as well as interesting notes on history, etc. a la CD-ROM
encyclopedias or whatever.  The storage capacity is staggering and the
hardware is becoming almost indispensible for home computers.

As for John Montroll, I had assumed his name would be a household word
among origami fans, but I guess I was wrong.  His books of original and
truly inventive designs are responsible for sparking my interest in
paper-folding.  One reason I would like to see an instructional program
like the one we're discussing is that I'm still unable to complete some of
his more advanced models (moth, spider) but I once took a class (alas, only
two hours) from him and was able to master several folds that had
previously baffled me, with just a few quick pointers from him.  Besides,
the introduction to one of his books, the later ones published by Antroll,
which is a company formed by him and his brother, mentions a computer
program that they used to produce the models in that book.  If I could
interest him in this project, I think we'd be halfway home.  I'm going to
try the snail mail system, see if I can reach him that way.

Chris

ckendall@carl.org





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 18:08:31 ADT
From: Cynthia Pettit <pettit@cs.unc.edu>
Subject: Montroll...

>[..] but I once took a class (alas, only two hours) from him [Montroll]
>[..]

I just have to ask: with a name like that, is he asian or not??

Cyn "been bugging me for some time now... :) " Pettit

        "It's not about driving down rt 66 and stopping at the Holiday Inn!
               It's about *adventure*!!"
                          ---Richard P Feynman





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 18:51:16 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Video on Origami

I don't know.. I've never seen a video.. I'm accustomed to poring over
diagrams, as I have never located a video that is challenging enough to match
my level!.. It seems like a neat idea.. i'd have to try it first, though.





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 18:59:54 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: RE: CD-ROM programming

Chris:
do you happen to remember the name of that program? I've had no end to the
tedium and frustration of finding a decent PC platform to do my meager diagrams
(I've only designed two models, and my lack of proficiency with drafting tools
prevents those from making their way out into the world!):)





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 19:56:23 ADT
From: ckendall@carl.org (Chris Kendall)
Subject: answers

To Soylent Green:  I never knew the name of the program.  If you can point
me at _any_ programs you know of or have downloaded from BBS's, please do.

To Cyn Pettit:  Not.

To everybody:  How about including our personal email addresses in
correspondence, so that items or questions of less than general interest
can be handled on the side, as it were?

Chris

ckendall@carl.org





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 23:05:54 ADT
From: wbfst1@cislabs.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Computers and Origami (origo)

The biggest problem I see with computer designed origami is the following:

Where's the character to it?  I mean, Montroll seems to thrive on doing
intricate folds which end up representing the subject nearly exactly..
but to me they have little feeling.  They are just well folded pieces of
paper.  Allowing the computer to design origami is taking the creativity
out of the folder's hands and putting it into the computer chips.  Admittedly,
it's fairly difficult to create a fold.  In my limited time as a folder,
I've created only one 'new' fold, a hummingbird done from a bird base,
and it was even somewhat accurate, if a little sloppy.  Unfortunately, I
did this on a plane, and forgot the fold very soon after, having lost
the original.  But the pleasure I got from that was more than if I had
just told the computer to design me a hummingbird to recreate.  I also
have a similar feeling when I duplicate folds from a book, although
I find some of them very neat...part of it MAY be that although I'm more
accurate then the non-folders I know who play at doing origami, I'm not
near precise enough to recreate the model quite the way I feel it should
be.

    | Information both the most powerful and most dangerous thing to have. |
             | PGP Public Key:  William Fisher <wbfst1@pitt.edu> |





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 23:09:07 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: RE: Computers and Origami (origo)

I was contemplating the idea (very roughly, given my limited experiences with
programming, much less theory).. of "self-generating" computer origami a couple
of days ago.. as far as things go now, I think I'll stick with diagramming..
though it would be nice to have a program to use to bisect surfaces, angles,
etc, as that is mostly what origami consists of in the folding process.  While
using such programs as CAD, to ensure any kind of reliability, I have to
manually enter calculations, angles, etc, and copy each image over and over
(the copying, though, is unavoidable).. but it becomes tedious to match lines,
complete "objects" as it were, and produce a set of readable diagrams (when the
computer lines intersect, the fact that pixels are "rectangles" causes
distortion).. I'll have to give Corel Draw a try; I've never worked with it, so
I don't know what kinds of tasks I'll be facing..
Thanks to Joseph Wu..

Rhudson@eddie.Yorkcol.edu





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 22:44:55 ADT
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Computers and Origami (origo)

The use of computer programs in diagramming is now fairly widespread.
However, this is mostly concerned with commercial off-the-shelf software
such as Illustrator and Freehand on the Mac (as is used by Montroll, who
is *NOT* oriental, and Lang), and CorelDRAW! on the PC (as is used by
myself). These are simply drawing programs that can help (immensely) in
the diagramming process. Custom software for this purpose has also been
written, such as ORIDRAW by Maarten van Gelder, and some unnamed programs
by Lang as mentioned in Montroll's _Origami_Sculptures_. Still, diagramming
is a tedious task, and the desire to have more complex programs which can
do more than that is ever on people's minds.

Robert Lang, in his address to the Nippon Origami Association (NOA) at
their convention in Tokyo last year, talked about the use of computers in
origami. He has developed a technique which allows him to create unique
bases with an arbitrary number of points (of specified size) from a square
of paper. Once he had worked out the principles of this method, he wrote
a program in _Mathematica_ (a mathematical problem-solving system) to
automatically produce the folding patterns for these bases. He briefly
mentioned one day having a computer program where it would be possible
"to describe a very complex model, like a Tyrannosaurus, and have a computer
print out the entire folding sequence".

I must say, however, that this is not a trivial problem. Being a grad
student in computer graphics, I had originally wanted to do my thesis on
a modelling system for folded surfaces. However, that idea was vetoed by
my supervisor on the grounds that it was too big a problem to be solved
in the two years I had to do my Master's degree. Some of the difficult
parts of the problem include:

a) How do we represent the piece of paper? As a set of points corresponding
   to each corner? As a set of lines corresponding to the edges? As a set
   of polygons corresponding to the surfaces? As a grid?

b) How do we represent the folds? what about the angles of the folds? or
   how about landmarks?

c) No representation system created so far is able to deal well with
   maintaining the geometry and surface area of a polygon. In other words,
   how do we get a system that actually models paper as opposed to something
   like a sheet of rubber?

d) No representation system created so far is able to deal well with
   interpenetration. How are we going to keep the paper from going through
   itself when it is folded?

e) How do we deal with multiple layers of paper in the user interface to
   the program?

f) Paper moves in certain ways. When doing a sink fold, the surrounding
   paper must "give" in certain ways in order for the sink to work. If we
   ignore this, then we go back to problem (c).

So, as you can see, this is not a simple problem. And it is proof once again
that the computer is not a magic solution box that can do anything. A lot of
work needs to be done before "instant" computer origami becomes a reality.

Joseph Wu      <jwu@cs.ubc.ca> | Witty quote is now back to the
Master's Student               |   drawing board due to squeamish
University of British Columbia |   readers. Any suggestions?





Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 23:46:58 ADT
From: ackerman <ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org>
Subject: Re: Montroll...

>
> >[..] but I once took a class (alas, only two hours) from him [Montroll]
> >[..]
>
> I just have to ask: with a name like that, is he asian or not??
>
> Cyn "been bugging me for some time now... :) " Pettit

I've folded with him at least twice. He didn't look Asian to me :-)

Sheldon Ackerman
ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 01:55:43 ADT
From: ckendall@carl.org (Chris Kendall)
Subject: computers

First of all, let me state that I never intended to suggest that John
Montroll uses a computer to design his models, only to produce the drawings
for his instruction books quickly and accurately.  As for the quality of
his designs, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Nor do I wish to employ the computer for any such purpose myself.  Where is
the joy of paper-folding if not in ... folding paper?  I was, however
intrigued by the descriptions of problems.  None of them seem insoluble,
and work on them would surely provide a challenging intellectual
exercise, a joy in itself, but qualitatively different from that derived
from the act of origami.

What I am interested in producing is a way of teaching origami using the
resources that the computer offers.  This all started with a question about
the availability of good origami teaching videos.  It's evident that video
is not the ideal medium for transferring origami skill.  Surely the ideal
medium for that is two pairs of hands, one pair skilled, the other becoming
so, working side by side.  But not every beginner has access to a good
teacher, and books are often frustrating to learn this art from -- for
some, even impossible.  An interactive, self-paced, video instructor seems
like an excellent compromise.

Chris

ckendall@carl.org





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 02:10:57 ADT
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re:Computers and Origami

>The biggest problem I see with computer designed origami is the following:

>Where's the character to it?  I mean, Montroll seems to thrive on doing
>intricate folds which end up representing the subject nearly exactly..
>but to me they have little feeling.  They are just well folded pieces of
>paper.

I believe that the character in a piece is imparted partly by the folder and
partly by the viewer. The instructions that you find in a book are merely the
beginning! *YOU* must form the final shape of the model and give it whatever
qualities you want it to have. Therein lies the artistry. Montroll's models
are beautiful in their complexity and realism; my folding of them adds lyricism
and grace.

>        Allowing the computer to design origami is taking the creativity
>out of the folder's hands and putting it into the computer chips.

Hold the phone! How, pray tell, are you going to get a computer to "design"
origami with any sort of "creativity"? Lang talked about "describing" a model
to a computer program and having it generate a folding pattern. I think that
that is the upper limit of the computer's contribution to origami. Computers
cannot create. They are merely machines that do as they are told. The creation
process still has to take place in the folder's head. What the computer offers
is faster, better ways to get to a finished product.

>                                                                  Admittedly,
>it's fairly difficult to create a fold.  In my limited time as a folder,
>I've created only one 'new' fold, a hummingbird done from a bird base,
>and it was even somewhat accurate, if a little sloppy.  Unfortunately, I
>did this on a plane, and forgot the fold very soon after, having lost
>the original.  But the pleasure I got from that was more than if I had
>just told the computer to design me a hummingbird to recreate.

Same point as above.

>                                                                I also
>have a similar feeling when I duplicate folds from a book, although
>I find some of them very neat...part of it MAY be that although I'm more
>accurate then the non-folders I know who play at doing origami, I'm not
>near precise enough to recreate the model quite the way I feel it should
>be.

You must realize that some diagrams are too perfect to be matched by something
as grossly physical as paper. Points line up too well, layers flatten to
nothing, etc. It just can't be done. Also, as I mentioned at the beginning,
the character of the finished model is what you make of it.

Joseph Wu      <jwu@cs.ubc.ca> | Witty quote is now back to the
Master's Student               |   drawing board due to squeamish
University of British Columbia |   readers. Any suggestions?





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 03:14:50 ADT
From: wbfst1@cislabs.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Computers and Origami

All right, I've already got two replies, so I think I'll clarify a few
points about my original post.

1>  Evidently, I misunderstood the original poster's comment about computers
and origami.  I thought he was discussing giving the computer a 'sheet of
paper' and a target shape and having the computer design the fold to get
the shape.  This has been proven wrong.  Obviously, the designer of the
fold gives the computer the paper and the points which make up the various
folds in the model and it does the diagrams.

2>  Going by the first assumption, it would be fair to say that the computer
is designing the fold, and therefore has taken the creativity out of the
folding process.

3>  Assuming we have a computer drawn diagram, such as the ones in Montroll's
books, I feel that although no person can fold as precise as the diagrams,
some can arrive at very nearly the identical pattern, no matter the thickness
of the paper, etcetera.  I have seen one fellow's fold of a (I think) Montroll
shell that seems to me to be nearly perfect.

4>  The issue of character is a thorny one at best, one I don't think I'll
get into in detail, since I don't want my mailbox to be filled with hate
mail.  I'll just say that I prefer models that allow representation without
exact duplication over those that feel to me to be an exercise in attempting
to see how complex we can fold a square sheet of paper.  As always, my rule
of thumb is 'keep it simple.'

    | Information both the most powerful and most dangerous thing to have. |
             | PGP Public Key:  William Fisher <wbfst1@pitt.edu> |





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 10:40:56 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and Origami

To William Fisher:
I'm not sure, but I think you may be missing the point of Montroll.  He uses
the computer to facilitate the generation of diagrams, not to create models
(At least, I think that's what he does..) Computer geometric generation of
models isn't quite perfected, as yet, if you'll note the last few posts,
there's no end to the theoretical problems..

As far as a true purist approach, I can see your point, as well.  I'm a bit
intimidated by complex, geometric bases, when I'd rather go through a series of
well-thought out, "human"ly clever folds to create a model..

In any case, when computers can "do origami", it's going to be a lot of fun to
play with!
Rob Hudson\
Rhudson@eddie.yorkcol.edu





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 12:07:58 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Simple vs complex models

        I love to look at complex models such as the creations of Montroll
and Engle but find the joy of folding begins to slip away after the
5th or 6th unsuccessful try.  I still can't do Montroll's Pegasus (at least
one that resembles the picture in the book).  I don't have any origami
group in west Michigan to go to for help either so I must struggle on my
own.  Perhaps what I lack is persistence but origami is a hobby I relax
with and create with - I don't want it to be a job.  And I shouldn't
need an engineering degree either.  So I must add that I prefer simplicity
in a model too.  When a model captures the "spirit" of an animal and is
simple in it's construction, I find pure joy.
        That's not to say all of Montrolls  or Engle's models are too
complex, but some are just untouchable wonders to me.  Like the cathedrals
in Europe.

Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 12:27:11 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Re: computers

>
>What I am interested in producing is a way of teaching origami using the
>resources that the computer offers.  This all started with a question about
>the availability of good origami teaching videos.  It's evident that video
>is not the ideal medium for transferring origami skill.  Surely the ideal
>medium for that is two pairs of hands, one pair skilled, the other becoming
>so, working side by side.  But not every beginner has access to a good
>teacher, and books are often frustrating to learn this art from -- for
>some, even impossible.  An interactive, self-paced, video instructor seems
>like an excellent compromise.
>
>--
>Chris
>
>ckendall@carl.org
>
>
        I think Chris makes a good point.  The computer program is the
best of all worlds for people who don't have access to a local origami
has access to a computer and if they do, they may not have the capability
to run the program if it requires hardware they don't have.  Believe it or
not I'm writing this on a 286, no harddrive, monochrome monitor, 512k ram
system.  And I can't be the only poor soul out there like this.  What
origami program could I run? (Oh, I can add - a 1200 baud modem and a
9 pin dot matrix printer).
        What if a video program were created that included the patterns
for the models.  Maybe even paper.  Because it seems one of the drawbacks
with a video program is that the viewer must either memorize the folds
quickly or replay the video over and over and over.  Because I don't
know about everyone else, but my first attempts are always a sad sight.
(and my second and my ....).

Just some thoughts,
Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 12:41:26 ADT
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Simple vs complex models

>       I love to look at complex models such as the creations of Montroll
> and Engle but find the joy of folding begins to slip away after the
> 5th or 6th unsuccessful try.

I know the feeling...

> So I must add that I prefer simplicity
> in a model too.  When a model captures the "spirit" of an animal and is
> simple in it's construction, I find pure joy.

Are you a member of the British Origami Society?  If so, in recent magazines
there have been examples of minimalist origami: several 7-fold elephants, for
example.  I think the finest I've seen so far---and this one's widely known---
is the 4-fold fish, by someone whose name escapes me.

In any case, there are vast numbers of simple to intermediate models around
(and many folds which I'm sure I *ought* to be able to do, but just seem to be
missing something!).

Having someone teach you a fold is helpful, and I'm sure there must be *some*
folders near you.  Also, I find that as time goes on, I can go back to older
models that I'd given up hope of doing, and fold them without much problem.
(I doubt this will work for much of Engel's or Montroll/Lang's works though!)

Bruce                   Institute of Advanced Scientific Computing
bruce@liverpool.ac.uk   University of Liverpool





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 12:58:15 ADT
From: s090@brems.ii.uib.no
Subject: Re: Simple vs complex models

> >     I love to look at complex models such as the creations of Montroll
> > and Engle but find the joy of folding begins to slip away after the
> > 5th or 6th unsuccessful try.
>
> I know the feeling...
>

If I fail when trying to fold a model, I just wait half a year or so and
then try again. Usually I manage to get a reasonable successful result
then.

> > So I must add that I prefer simplicity
> > in a model too.  When a model captures the "spirit" of an animal and is
> > simple in it's construction, I find pure joy.
>
> Are you a member of the British Origami Society?  If so, in recent magazines
> there have been examples of minimalist origami: several 7-fold elephants, for
> example.  I think the finest I've seen so far---and this one's widely known---
> is the 4-fold fish, by someone whose name escapes me.
>
> In any case, there are vast numbers of simple to intermediate models around
> (and many folds which I'm sure I *ought* to be able to do, but just seem to be
> missing something!).
>
> Having someone teach you a fold is helpful, and I'm sure there must be *some*
> folders near you.

I wouldn't be too sure about finding someone near who folds. I have a
feeling I'm the only one in Norway who are any interested in origami. I
have lately tried to get some of my frends interested, but I'm not sure if
I will succeed. Anybody out there in Netland know any norwegian
paperfolders ?

>                    Also, I find that as time goes on, I can go back to older
> models that I'd given up hope of doing, and fold them without much problem.
> (I doubt this will work for much of Engel's or Montroll/Lang's works though!)
> --
> Bruce                   Institute of Advanced Scientific Computing
> bruce@liverpool.ac.uk   University of Liverpool
>

Kjartan





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 13:13:37 ADT
From: "Penelope R. Chua" <chupenr@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: some suggestions for an origami video

I tried sending this off a couple days ago, but there was some trouble
getting it posted.  Anyway, here it is:

Douglas Zander writes:

>I'm just curious, what would you like to see in an origami
>video?  Suggestions anyone?

I think lots of examples of really cool models would be great.  I know
that I became an origami enthusiast because I was in New York last
Christmas, and spied one of those origami Christmas Trees in the window of
a Japanese travel agency.  This one had the coolest models on it, things
that I had never dreamt were foldable.  There was a fantastic array of
crustaceans, the anatomical accuracy of which amazed me totally.  And
there were a couple of John Montroll's sculptures on display, whose shape
and form I memorized enough to recognize the book they were taken from
later on while browsing in a bookstore.  Needless to say, "Origami
Sculptures" grazed my bookshelf not long afterwards and I've been hooked
ever since.

I also think that a video with demonstrations featuring models from
hard-to-find books would be a good idea.  For instance, on the same
origami christmas tree, I saw a wonderful model of a grand piano that I
have been dying to make, and subsequently discovered was featured in a
book that is now out of print.  I am still dying to make that grand piano,
and if I knew that there was a video out there that would show me now to
make it, I would run out to get it.

By the way, if anyone owns directions on making Patricia Crawford's piano,
I would love to get my hands on them.

Penelope Chua   Biology Dept., Yale University   chupenr@minerva.ycc.yale.edu





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 13:43:01 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: RE: Simple vs complex models

I can recall becoming very fluent in frustration during my first experience
with Montroll models.. my second book was montroll's first.. it was a chore.. I
didn't manage to get Pegasus for about two years... There again, I had the time
to sit and work at it.





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 14:30:21 ADT
From: ackerman <ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org>
Subject: Re: Computers and Origami

>
> 3>  Assuming we have a computer drawn diagram, such as the ones in Montroll's
> books, I feel that although no person can fold as precise as the diagrams,
> some can arrive at very nearly the identical pattern, no matter the thickness
> of the paper, etcetera.  I have seen one fellow's fold of a (I think) Montroll
> shell that seems to me to be nearly perfect.
>     | Information both the most powerful and most dangerous thing to have. |
>              | PGP Public Key:  William Fisher <wbfst1@pitt.edu> |
>

Mark Kennedy has quite a collection of tweezers and other tools that he uses
perfect!





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 14:42:43 ADT
From: ackerman <ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org>
Subject: Re: computers

> But not every beginner has access to a good
> teacher, and books are often frustrating to learn this art from -- for
> some, even impossible.  An interactive, self-paced, video instructor seems
> like an excellent compromise.
>
> --
> Chris
>
> ckendall@carl.org
>

I was one such beginner. I happened to come across a book by Isao Honda. That
book was my introduction to origami. About two years ago I was introduced to
Montroll and just fell in love with his models.

Sheldon Ackerman
ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 15:58:53 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: RE: some suggestions for an origami video

Speaking of hard to find models, I'd like to find accurate diagrams for
patricia crawfords ship .. i have the ones from the harbin book (forgot the
name).. and one of the flexagons (the one-sheet one made from a 3x7 paper?)





Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 23:32:04 ADT
From: stamm@aol.com
Subject: Re: Origami, Computers, Videos et al

I guess I lurked in the background long enough to add my
two cents worth.

Videos:
You may want to contact Dorothy Kaplan (Freehold, NJ)
who does a local crafts show on TV.  She is an avid
folder and contributes to the FOLD zine.  She
occasionally mentions origami videos in her zine.

You may also want to contact Michael LaFosse (Haverhill,
Maine) who's given video/computers/origami some thought.

Computers:
Personally, I diagram all my folds using a program call
Canvas on a Macintosh.  Drawing by hand is initially
faster for me (I had training in drafting).  But when it
comes to editing, making changes and making things look
good, drawing on the computer has its advantages.  The
benefits the drafting industry got from computers are
the same diagramers enjoy. Ultimately someone has got to
author the diagrams for CDs, videos, computers et al.
As for sharing diagrams over computers,  I am leaning
toward a print-to-disk utility called "Common Ground" by
"No Hands Software" (They will have a Windows product
November 15...they say).  No Hands will be releasing the
MiniViewers for their product for FREE.
[Shameless PLUG]
I've been using CommonGround for the Mac version of
"Online Origami" (The PC version right now is a jumble
of GIFs ZIPpped together).  Being a near-Internet virgin
myself I don't know how it could be distributed on
Internet, but it can be gotten on CompuServe and
American OnLine.

Origami:
Origami is Origami and there is no substitute with
folding.  Writing about origami, diagramming origami
is just that and not origami.  Unfortunately if you
create folds and don't teach them or diagram them or
"something" then when you die so does your fold.
Our medium is paper, very fragile and usually very
temporary and life comes to a model by each origami
artist folding and giving it a unique "spirit".
Personally I create with paper away from the computer
and when I come up with a model that I like I fold it
2 or 3 times to commit it to memory (and stick it in a
paper bag with other models-to-be-diagrammed). Later,
I diagram either to my notebooks or to the computer by
reverse engineering the models out of the paper bag.

Montroll:
After I complained about missing steps in Montroll's
books, an unnamed-person-whos-been-folding-from-the-
cradle once told me that Montroll told him, that his
"Enthusist" books were written when Montroll was a
teenager and in his foolish youth didn't let anyone
critique the book before press time, cause he didn't
want to "redo" the drawings he had work so hard on.
Interesting if true.  Thankfully his later books don't
seem to have a much trouble.

Tom Stamm
STAMM@AOL.COM





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 07:54:22 ADT
From: Torphammar Per <peto@telub.se>
Subject:

Dear friends!

I'm new at this server and also as origami folder  :-)
I have question which originates from a TV program I saw some half year ago.
That reminded me about a clever folding of a street map a saw several years
ago.

The point/question is: how do a fold a paper sheet into a flat but much
smaller size in a way that it makes it very easy to fold and unfold?

The TV program was about a professor at NASA/JPL who studied this type of
problem in connection with folding large structures like solar panels that
are used in space.

I have thought of this problem several years and it would be very fun if
anybody out there could help me :-)

Regards
Per Torphammar
Sweden
peto@telub.se





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 07:55:23 ADT
From: Steve Greig <steve@department-computer-studies.napier.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Simple vs complex models

Bruce said:

> Are you a member of the British Origami Society?  If so, in recent magazines
> there have been examples of minimalist origami: several 7-fold elephants, for
> example.  I think the finest I've seen so far---and this one's widely known---
> is the 4-fold fish, by someone whose name escapes me.

I'm fairly new to origami and didn't know that there was a UK society.   Do
you have any more details?

Steve

Steve Greig                             email: steve@uk.ac.napier.dcs
Computer Studies Department
Napier University                       tel:   +44-31-455-4285
219 Colinton Road                       fax:   +44-31-455-7209
Edinburgh  EH14 1DJ
Scotland





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 07:56:28 ADT
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Patricia Crawford's piano

> I also think that a video with demonstrations featuring models from
> hard-to-find books would be a good idea.  For instance, on the same
> origami christmas tree, I saw a wonderful model of a grand piano that I
> have been dying to make, and subsequently discovered was featured in a
> book that is now out of print.  I am still dying to make that grand piano,
> and if I knew that there was a video out there that would show me now to
> make it, I would run out to get it.
>
> By the way, if anyone owns directions on making Patricia Crawford's piano,
> I would love to get my hands on them.

I (or my parents) bought Robert Harbin's Origami 1, 2, 3 and 4, and (apart from
1, which has since disintegrated!) I still have them.  If you can't find
anyone on your continent who can send you a photocopy, then I'm happy to!

> --
> Penelope Chua   Biology Dept., Yale University   chupenr@minerva.ycc.yale.edu





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 10:44:25 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Re: Simple vs complex models

Bruce said:
>
>Are you a member of the British Origami Society?  If so, in recent magazines
>there have been examples of minimalist origami: several 7-fold elephants, for
>example.  I think the finest I've seen so far---and this one's widely known---
>is the 4-fold fish, by someone whose name escapes me.
>
        I only just recieved some info on joining the organization in the
U.S.  Does the British Origami Society put out a publication with new
models by it's members?
>
>Bruce                   Institute of Advanced Scientific Computing
>bruce@liverpool.ac.uk   University of Liverpool
>

Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 10:56:01 ADT
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Simple vs complex models

>       I only just recieved some info on joining the organization in the
> U.S.  Does the British Origami Society put out a publication with new
> models by it's members?
>
Yes, the BOS has a magazine every two months.  Some of the magazine is of
little interest to overseas readers, but there are usually half a dozen folds
(not necessarily new or British, though most are by members).

I think BOS and FOCA have some scheme for encouraging cross-atlantic
membership, by pairing up people who want to join so that they can pay
in their own currencies, but I can't remember the details.

> Nancy
> ab682@leo.nmc.edu

Bruce                   Institute of Advanced Scientific Computing
bruce@liverpool.ac.uk   University of Liverpool





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 10:57:43 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Origami books in Japanese

        I have question about books published that haven't been translated
into English (which is the language I read),especially in Japanese.  Are
the illustrations easy enough to follow?  I'm the type that would rather
follow the diagrams than read a lot of instructions anyway (I only read
the written steps when I'm stuck).  In particular, I'm interested in
folds created by Yoshizawa and the only other two books available through
the Origami Friends of America organization are in Japanese.  Has anyone
out there (who doesn't know Japanese) used these books and which ones did
you prefer?

Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 11:05:54 ADT
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Origami books in Japanese

> In particular, I'm interested in
> folds created by Yoshizawa and the only other two books available through
> the Origami Friends of America organization are in Japanese.  Has anyone
> out there (who doesn't know Japanese) used these books and which ones did
> you prefer?

I've got a few Dutch books, and one Japanese one.  I have no problems
(so far) with the Japanese one, but that may be because the models are
fairly straightforward (they're modular folds by Tomoko Fuse) and
because I'm familiar with her style.  The Dutch ones I have more
problems with, because I'm sure some of them need gluing, and different
sized bits of paper and things; the folding itself is no problem.

> Nancy
> ab682@leo.nmc.edu

Bruce                   Institute of Advanced Scientific Computing
bruce@liverpool.ac.uk   University of Liverpool





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:19:12 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: RE: Patricia Crawford's piano

As far as Origami I,II,III and IV go, I <think> I have 1 (the one with the man
on the ostrich, etc.) and 2 (new adventures in origami, with the Jackstone and
dagger, knight), but which ones were 3 and 4 ?.. If possible, I'd like xeroxes
of those..
Rhudson@eddie.yorkcol.edu





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:22:19 ADT
From: roos@sophia.smith.edu (Bob Roos)
Subject: videos,Japanese books

First, hello to Tom Stamm--glad you're getting stuff from the list.

Videos

I know that Michael LaFosse is working on a video of paper airplane
folds. I've seen some of the models, and they are aerodynamic marvels---all
original models, by the way.  I don't know when the video will be ready
or how it will be distributed.

I thought there was a video of David Shall's "Statue of Liberty" fold
a few years back---anybody know about it (availability, etc.)?  I don't
own a VCR, so have no firsthand knowledge of any of these things.

Dorothy Kaplan has been hosting a public-access cable TV program in New
Jersey for many years now in which origami features often.  I'll try to
see if I can get any hints from her on how she's taped the  folding
portions of her program.

Books in Japanese

If you can follow the "standard" folding symbols (e.g., dashes for valley
folds, dash-dot-dot-dash for mountain folds, dots for hidden folds, etc.),
then you can fold the things in Yoshizawa's books, even the complicated
models.  (English instructions usually don't help with tricky folds
anyway, I've learned.)  In fact, didn't Yoshizawa invent the standard
folding notation?  HOWEVER...don't expect your models to look as nice as
the illustrations in the books!  Sometimes Yoshizawa includes photographs
of more advanced versions of the models diagrammed in his books.
Even the ones that ARE diagrammed are folded with such mastery and
attention to detail that one can only aspire to being someday half as
good as the master.

NOTE:  even if you can't read Japanese, you might want to look at the
numerals and English symbols in the instructions, since these often
refer to a page number or base name that you must refer to in order to
get started.  E.g., if you see "(A)" in there, there is probably a base
on an earlier page marked "(A)" that you must use.

Bob Roos
roos@sophia.smith.edu





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:26:34 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: RE: videos,Japanese books

Videos:
David Shall, Michael's brother, created the Statue of Liberty, at last call (
when I last folded with him), it was up around $20.  He can be contacted
through the Friends in America.. though if I looked hard enough, I could
probably find out his address (he's about 30 miles from me)..
To clarify- the instructional video was around$20...
Rhudson@eddie.yorkcol.edu





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:29:47 ADT
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: videos,Japanese books

I think it's David Shall isn't it?  Anyway, his video was one folding
session at last weekend's BOS convention.  I'm afraid I didn't get all
the way through it---I think you need foil, or at least paper bigger or
thinner than what we had (being a better folder than me probably helps
too!).  The folds are very clearly explained.





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:34:51 ADT
From: Kjartan Clausen <s090@brems.ii.uib.no>
Subject: Blade Runner & origami

I saw the movie 'Blade Runner' (again) a few weeks ago and I wondered if
anyone know where to get the instructions for folding the unicorn and the
chicken that one could see in the film. I have tried to de-fold it from
the picture in the film, but haven't been able to do it.
Is there anybody out there who can give me a hint on where to look?

       Kjartan Clausen           Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  Institutt for Informatikk      The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
    Universitetet i Bergen       Beware the jubjub bird, and shun
     s090@brems.ii.uib.no        The frumious Bandersnatch !





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:43:48 ADT
From: SOYLENT GREEN <RHUDSON@EDDIE.YORKCOL.EDU>
Subject: RE: Blade Runner & origami

To Kjarten (sp?):
I've seen that model, too, and I'm intrigued.. It might be the same Unicorn
from one of Harbin's books (as yet out of print!).. Does anyone else know?





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 13:10:54 ADT
From: ackerman <ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org>
Subject: Re: Origami books in Japanese

>       I have question about books published that haven't been translated
> into English (which is the language I read),especially in Japanese.  Are
> the illustrations easy enough to follow?  I'm the type that would rather
> follow the diagrams than read a lot of instructions anyway (I only read
> the written steps when I'm stuck).  In particular, I'm interested in
> folds created by Yoshizawa and the only other two books available through
> the Origami Friends of America organization are in Japanese.  Has anyone
> out there (who doesn't know Japanese) used these books and which ones did
> you prefer?
>
> Nancy
> ab682@leo.nmc.edu

I've had no problem folding some of the boxes in one of Fuses all Japanese
language books.

ackerman@dorsai.dorsai.org
Sheldon Ackerman





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 13:51:45 ADT
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re: Origami books in Japanese

On Wed, 15 Sep 1993, Nancy Nietupski wrote:

>       I have question about books published that haven't been translated
> into English (which is the language I read),especially in Japanese.  Are
> the illustrations easy enough to follow?  I'm the type that would rather
> follow the diagrams than read a lot of instructions anyway (I only read
> the written steps when I'm stuck).  In particular, I'm interested in
> folds created by Yoshizawa and the only other two books available through
> the Origami Friends of America organization are in Japanese.  Has anyone
> out there (who doesn't know Japanese) used these books and which ones did
> you prefer?

The quality of these books (with regards to folders who read no Japanese)
really varies. Some books are straight-foward and easy to understand from
the diagrams alone. Others are a nightmare. The worst ones are the books
that have common steps for models. Some authors like to extract these
common steps and put them into another section. Without a reference to
what belongs to what, folding can become very difficult. I own several
Japanese only books (and one Chinese only), some of which are easy to
follow, and others which have driven me to distraction. From what I've
seen of Yoshizawa, however, I'd guess that his books would be of the
easy-to-follow variety (I have two of his English books, none of his
Japanese ones).





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 14:10:57 ADT
From: Philip Craig Chapman-Bell <pcbell@english.umass.edu>
Subject: Re: Origami books in Japanese

        Re: Japanese origami books---
        I bought Yoshizawa's _Origami Dohukon_ from the Origami Center, oh,
nigh on fifteen years ago, and it had a booklet English translation tucked
inside the cover.  I never used it, but I learned to fold before I could
read very well, so I always ignored the instructions, anyway.  (This seems
to be a handicap with software, however.)

        Oh, and Per?  The name of the Japanese prof (Tokyo U, I think) is
Koryo Miura.  I think I solved the angles on the fold, and I've been
meaning to send him a copy to check.  If you send me your snailmail
address, I'll send you what I've come up with.
        Yours,
        <>Philip Craig Chapman-Bell<>
               pcbell@english.umass.edu





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 14:14:53 ADT
From: lavin@MIT.EDU
Subject:

I've found that most (though not all) of the Japanese books are
well-diagrammed enough that you can follow them without being able to
read the text accompanying them.  (Take this with a grain of salt,
though -- I'm in the midst of learning Japanese, and so the texts are
getting easier and easier to read...  :)  But even before I started the
language classes, I could follow most of the stuff in my Japanese
books.

The one thing that it's very, very useful to be able to read is the
word for "page" -- many of the models in the books say, at the start,
"Start with step X on page Y."  If you can read that much at least,
you'll have a lot fewer problems figuring out what base to start with!
(Unfortunately, most of you on the list can't recieve email in
Japanese or I'd send it to you all here.  If anyone's curious, I can
always send you a postcard, if you like, with the text on it...)

I do seem to remember reading that Yoshizawa was the person who really
pushed for a standard in the diagramming, and his diagrams are very
readable.  The real trick to his models is that the *angles* of most
folds are really critical (sometimes the first or second fold of a
piece will change the whole look of the finished model...)  But if you
get the angles right, the piece will usually work out pretty well.
And the angles in all his diagrams are accurate, so you can lay your
piece down on the drawing to check things as you fold.

Anne R. LaVin                    | "Say, Pooh, why aren't YOU busy?" I said.
lavin@mit.edu                    | "Because it's a nice day," said Pooh.
MIT Information Systems          | "Yes, but---"
(617) 253-0115                   | "Why ruin it?" he said.





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 14:31:24 ADT
From: Alan "K.-C." Tai <akctai@acs.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: RE: Blade Runner & origami

The unicorn model in Harbin's book (Harbin, R.  1974.  Origami: A step by step
guide.  ISBN 0-600-38109-9.) was designed by Patricia Crawford.
It is in my opinion, much, much better than the one shown in Bladerunner.

---------  Alan K.-C. Tai  --------|\^/|--------  Internet:  ----------------
 Dept Biological Sciences       _|\|   |/|_       akctai@acs.ucalgary.ca
    University of Calgary       >         <       Voice: (403) 220-3552
------  AB CANADA T2N 1N4  ------>_./|\._<------  Fax: (403) 289-9311  ------





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 14:51:47 ADT
From: Paco Ojeda_Gonzalez <ffoogg@macmailgw.dfci.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Why no origami newsgroup

I thought there was going to be a CFD (call for discussion) to start a
newsgroup called rec.crafts.paper, or rec.crafts.origami on the usenet. Did
this ever take off/take place?
Paco





Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:52:48 ADT
From: anselmo@thermsa.eng.sunysb.edu (Andrew P. Anselmo)
Subject: Re: digest format

Does this list come in a digest format?  I keep getting a lot of
mail, but much of it seems to come from the origami group!  One
or two doses a day would be better...

-A.

Andrew Anselmo
Dept. of Mechanical Engineering SUNY Stony Brook
Stony Brook, NY 11794
(516)-632-8303
Primary: anselmo@thermsa.eng.sunysb.edu  Secondary:apa1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu





Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 20:07:54 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Re: Simple vs complex models

>I'm fairly new to origami and didn't know that there was a UK society.   Do
>you have any more details?
>
>Steve
>

Here is the address I found in one of my books:

        British Origami Society
        253 Park Lane
        Poyton, Stockport
        Cheshire, SK12 IRH
        England

But I haven't the foggist notion on how active it is.  Anyone one
out there a member?





Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 20:09:04 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Chinese origami

This is a question for Joseph Wu:

        You mentioned that you had a book on Chinese origami.  What type
of style is it?  Is it a recent creation?

Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 20:11:24 ADT
From: fred@basser.cs.su.OZ.AU (Fred Curtis)
Subject: unicorn / unit origami / rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

=====  unicorn =====

Often when someone found out that I was origami fanatic, they'd
ask "can you do a unicorn like that guy in Blade Runner?".  After
this happened a few times I wanted to scream "NO!".  Now I say "yes",
and proceed to fold the tyranosaurus from Kasahara's "Origami Omnibus".
When the recipient complains that it isn't a unicorn, I get a paperclip,
matchstick or some other handy horn substitute and poke it through the
top of the dinosaur's head.  The reactions vary :-).

I'll try to chase up Harbin's book with Patricia Crawford's unicorn.

===== unit origami =====

A couple of months ago I built a large (420 unit, 1 metre diameter)
modular polyhedron.  It's a polyhedron described in "Adventures Among
the Toroids" (a neat mathematics book, now out of print), basically a
sphere-shape with 12 pentagonal-antiprism tunnels leading to a central
dodecahedral cavity.

The model is made out of units from Tomoko Fuse's book (page 65),
modified to allow sharp bends between triangular faces.  Folded from
used A4 photocopier paper, the model couldn't be any bigger without
sagging under its own weight.  Does anyone have tips for creating
really large structures?

===== rec.crafts.origami =====

"Paco Ojeda_Gonzalez" <ffoogg@macmailgw.dfci.harvard.edu> recently wrote:
> I thought there was going to be a CFD (call for discussion) to start a
> newsgroup called rec.crafts.paper, or rec.crafts.origami on the usenet. Did
> this ever take off/take place?

I saw the proposals in this mailing list, but never saw anything on
the net.  This message has been CC'd to Paul Moloney (the original
proposer); perhaps he can tell us what's happened.

> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 09:30:19 ADT
> From: Paul Moloney <pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <origami-l@nstn.ns.ca>
> Subject:
>
> Hello all,
>
> At the moment in news.groups, I have started up a discussion which hopefully
> will lead to the creation of rec.crafts.origami. Here is a copy of the first
> Request for Discussion. If anyone can suggest any additions/improvements to
> this, please let me know. Hopefully a call for voting can be issued in the
> next few weeks unless there are any major obstacles.

===== Any other Australian folders out there? =====

I tried snail-mailing the Australian Origami Society in Perth, but
never got a reply.  Does anyone know if they still exist?

"He heard the rattling of strange bone instruments & the | (fred@cs.su.oz.au)
 whine of cursed flutes" - Lumley: "The Clock of Dreams" | Fred Curtis.
