




Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 02:27:17 ADT
From: Agnes Tomorrow <atom@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: folding mylar

On Tue, 13 Jul 1993, V'Ann Cornelius wrote:

> presence of carbon atoms that support the polymer. That comment was followed
> by a shrug saying of course if you can convince the polymer to share one
> carbon in the place of two you will have a fold.
> I know nothing about this except what I heard.  I may not have heard it right.
> Does this make sense?

       	Could my method of doing a few folds, pressing the model in a
of 'convincing the polymer to share one carbon...'?  It works--as long as
the model has a final stage which can be pressed flat.  No good at all for
fully 3D models, of course!

Agnes Tomorrow
atom@u.washington.edu





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 12:31:44 ADT
From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
Subject: Coming of Age

Well, I just made a credible Montroll Lobster.  (At least no one has accused it
of looking like an aardvark).  Isn't this some kind of Origami coming-of-age
qualification?  "Aah, Grasshopper.  When you can make a Montroll Lobster, you
will be ready!"  Ready for what, I'm not sure.  It was a lot of fun to make.
I started with a 10 inch square, but ended up with a 2 inch lobster... I would
highly recommend starting with larger squares.  How does one estimate the
completed size of the model, given starting paper size?  Is there some
reasonable formula that can be applied?  Also, I dunked the completed model in
water, and this did seem to give added stiffness when dried.  I should note
that you want to make sure everything is where you want it, and check it while
it's drying, so nothing ends up in the wrong place.
Come on people, let's have some lively discussions on this list!  What's
everyone folding right now?  Lately?

I'm embarking next on a traversal of Montroll & Lang's _Sea_Life_ book.
So far I've made the dolphin and blue shark -- Both very realistic.
I especially think a shark folded out of *really large* paper has a lot of
scare potential.  Any comments?
Anyone have a favorite model out of this book, or cautions on hard-to-fold
ones?  I can't seem to get through the Chambered nautilus, and my paper
is starting to look like a used tissue.  If I don't get it soon, I'll have
to start over :-(

Finally, are there any Origami events happening in the near future?
I'd like to hear about it if there are.

-- Javier

 + jhc%base00@codas.attmail.com     +  AT&T                               +
 + Javier Cubero                    +  Orlando, Florida                   +





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 12:41:53 ADT
From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Coming of Age

> I'm embarking next on a traversal of Montroll & Lang's _Sea_Life_ book.
> So far I've made the dolphin and blue shark -- Both very realistic.
> I especially think a shark folded out of *really large* paper has a lot of
> scare potential.  Any comments?
> Anyone have a favorite model out of this book, or cautions on hard-to-fold
> ones?  I can't seem to get through the Chambered nautilus, and my paper
> is starting to look like a used tissue.  If I don't get it soon, I'll have
> to start over :-(

The sea horse and the starfish are nice, and quite simple.  (The
starfish is nice because it has rotational symmetry 5 [almost].)  I
made the American Blue lobster a couple of times, and that's a nice
model.  The one I just can't seem to get is the giant clam, which is a
shame, since it's supposed to open and close.

> Finally, are there any Origami events happening in the near future?
> I'd like to hear about it if there are.

There's the annual BOS convention in September, but that's probably a bit
far for you to come just for a weekend!

Bruce              CMSR, University of Liverpool





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 14:09:39 ADT
From: "Penelope R. Chua" <chupenr@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
Subject: chambered nautilus

> Anyone have a favorite model out of this book, or cautions on hard-to-fold
> ones?  I can't seem to get through the Chambered nautilus, and my paper
> is starting to look like a used tissue.  If I don't get it soon, I'll have
> to start over :-(

I would appreciate any comments on how to fold the chambered nautilus in
the origami sealife book by Montroll and Lang.  I seem to get stuck at the
refolding-along-the-creases-stage.  Other than that, my favourite models
out of this book are the black-devil angler fish (or was it the deep-sea
angler? - it was the one with all the fangs), which took a
whole afternoon to fold and produced a three-inch fish out of a 10" by 10"
square, and the kermit crab model.  The lobster is also very nice, but I
personally prefer
Montroll's earlier lobster model from Animal Origami For the Enthusiast.
I must say that my mantelpiece looks very nice with a series of fish
lined up, one after the other, in a little eco-system of
big-fish-eats-smaller-fish-eats-even-smaller-fish, etc. (The monstrous
angler fish with all the fangs is the biggest fish in the line-up, of
course, although in real life the blue shark is supposed to be bigger).
Has anyone made the stegosaurus from Prehistoric Origami yet?  This is my
favorite book of the moment, as all my friends are begging me to fold them
origami dinosaurs after seeing Jurassic Park.

Penelope Chua   Biology Dept., Yale University   chupenr@minerva.ycc.yale.edu





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 15:00:33 ADT
From: SPARKER@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: Coming of Age

I'm currently working on yet another 1000 cranes.  Just finished up 1000 for
a wedding over the weekend.

Hope to get some mobile making (with cranes, of course) soon and doing a flower
arrangement for someone who buys a lot of mobiles from me.

Sue Parker
sparker@u.washington.edu





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 15:05:35 ADT
From: Mongo Chuckie's Revenge <villard@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca>
Subject: Re: Coming of Age

Hi,

Could someone help me with some small problems:...

I have seen quite a few of the Post Script origami diagrams around, is there a
good way to print these without a postscript printer.

Also, there are some programs written in basic, that are supposed to show
(???)diagrams but I have been unable to make these work, I am very new to
origami, but am really excited about it.

If anyone has any information on the above, or anything else they think a
Newbie folder should know, please e-mail me at villard@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca

thanks in advance,
Kent





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 15:12:10 ADT
From: spencer@turing.mathworks.com (spencer)
Subject: Dragon Diagram

If someone could tell where I could find or send me a dragon diagram, I'd
really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Spencer





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 15:17:25 ADT
From: Eric Nielsen <GE2516@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject: PostScript w/o PostScript printer

>Could someone help me with some small problems:...
>
>I have seen quite a few of the Post Script origami diagrams around, is there a
>good way to print these without a postscript printer.

If you can use FTP, the program GhostScript is available at
  wuarchive.wustl.edu
  /mirrors/msdos/postscript

You should probably get the file 00-index.txt in this directory first,
since it describes what files are needed for ghostscript.

    Eric Nielsen                              GE2516@siucvmb.siu.edu
University Electronic                      Southern Illinois University
   Communications                                 at Carbondale





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 17:27:35 ADT
From: jfryer@URSLIB.BITNET
Subject: RE: PostScript w/o PostScript printer

Hi,    I have a very basic question.  How can I find the list of available
       Post Script files?  I have the archives of the List, but that only
       includes the verbal discussions.  What have I missed?

       I've veen doing origami off and on for many years, and on a good day
       might be an intermediate folder.  I'm eager to try new things.  I
       enjoy the discussions and bits of information that are passed along
       on this list.  Thanks.
Judith Fryer, Myrin Library, Ursinus College, Collegeville, PA 19426
jfryer@urslib.bitnet





Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 21:59:00 ADT
From: andataco!vann@UCSD.EDU (V'Ann Cornelius)
Subject: Re: Manhattan paper stores

Andrew,
Have you been to New York Central Art Center?
62 Third Avenue, NYC 10003
800 950 6111
I understand that the site itself is different from stores we are used to
in that the paper is somewhere else (like safe from fingers) ...
I ordered some elephant hide and it came in 5 days. The catalog lists
some simple through lavish papers.

Someone recommended  Kate's Paperie
8 west 13th  and 561 Broadway

I'm doing the wedding favors for my son's wedding. I'm very interested in
what you find as workable ...
-v'ann-                             1828 Dora Drive
                                    Cardiff-by-the-Sea, CA 92007
vann@andataco.com                   (619) 753-9623

-=-=-=-

can anyone recommend any stores in NJ or Manhattan for origami books
and/or paper? we are thinking of doing an origami wrap for wedding favours
that come in a small box (5x7x3/4 in). we have one book but wanted
to see some others..

       	      	andrew hume





Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 04:16:47 ADT
From: awong@cns.caltech.edu (A Wong)
Subject: Kasahara's Rose

Well, I finally bought a copy of "Origami Omnibus" by Kasahara and
learned how to fold the rose.  I can see why people on this list were
having trouble.  The illustrations could of been bigger and better.
I spent a good part of an hour staring at the illustrations before
I understood it.  The "sliding" fold of the outer petals was just not
clear enough.

Then I went out and got some red/white origami paper and made the rose!
Are there any other models that have this 3-D effect like the rose?
The other models in the book are flat and angular compared to the rose.

Al Wong
awong@cns.caltech.edu





Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 09:44:45 ADT
From: John_Morin@transarc.com
Subject: Re: Address list

Hi folders:    	

The "Friends of the Origami Center of America" has put out a small book
(34 pages) of regional origami groups (USA). The edition I have (vol 1
num 1; Jan - Mar 93)  lists 42 groups in the US. Most of them do not
have  a newsletter like FOCA or West Coast Origami Guild.  I understand
that the more recent newsletter has more regional groups.

I recently talked with the editor of the newsletter about listing the
groups in the book on the internet, but I will have to wait until I get
some type of approval from FOCA. If you would like to get a copy of a
newsletter, try writing FOCA.

The Newsletter not only lists the different regional groups but also
includes activities going on with each group and a ideas of how to
organize and run an origami class. This edition had "How to find 'closet
folders'" [in which this internet newsgroup is mentioned: for I've found
a few folders in the Pittsburgh area through it] and the next has (I think)
"How to find a No-Cost Meeting Place".

It's called
       	"The Friends" Regional Group Exchange
       	
Its description is:
       	A quarterly newsletter published by The Friends of the Origami
       	Center of America to encourage and help regional groups in
       	spreading the joy of Origami.

       	
       	- John Morin.
       	  morin@transarc.com





Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 12:32:06 ADT
From: FWOLFLINK@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU
Subject: Re: PostScript w/o PostScript printer

There is a piece of Macintosh software called Freedom of the Press that
allows PostScript printing with any printer.  I haven't used it, but
I'm interested in whether anyone else has.

fred wolflink
fwolflink@ecn.mass.edu





Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 14:36:50 ADT
From: Joseph Wu <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re:PostScript w/o PostScript printer

>There is a piece of Macintosh software called Freedom of the Press that
>allows PostScript printing with any printer.  I haven't used it, but
>I'm interested in whether anyone else has.

>fred wolflink

Freedom of Press (I believe that there is no "the") is also available on
the PC. I have used the PC version (although I no longer do since I now
have a Postscript printer), and it is quite good. It seems to have a bit
of a problem with certain types of curves (not quite even in its roundness),
but the effect is not usually noticeable, especially if there is no "real"
Postscript image to compare it with.

Joseph Wu    <jwu@cs.ubc.ca>   | Witty quote is now back to the
Master's Candidate             |   drawing board due to squeamish
University of British Columbia |   readers. Any suggestions?





Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 15:15:58 ADT
From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
Subject: box with lid

I used to do a box with lid (a shallower box hinged to it) made out of one
piece of paper.  I looked at Fuse's _Boxes_ book, but all of his are
two-piece.  Anyone know where to find a one-piece box with lid?

-- Javier

 + jhc%base00@codas.attmail.com     +  AT&T                               +
 + Javier Cubero                    +  Orlando, Florida                   +





Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 15:26:51 ADT
From: wbfst1@cislabs.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: box with lid

Hmm..(first things first, Tomoko Fuse is a she, not a he)..

As for a single sheet box, I don't have any plans for it, but I can
think of a method involving a three sided box, the fourth wall being
the hinge part, and the lid being identical to the bottom, perhaps
sized differently, if possible.  I dunno if this would work, the sizing
possibly preventing closure...I'd have to fiddle with paper, which I have
all night to do :)

    | Information both the most powerful and most dangerous thing to have. |
             | PGP Public Key:  William Fisher <wbfst1@pitt.edu> |





Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 20:34:59 ADT
From: roos@sophia.smith.edu (Bob Roos)
Subject: Re: box with lid

The book _Origami: Paperfolding for Fun_ by Eric Kenneway [Octopus Books, 1980,
ISBN 0-7064-1015-7] has a fairly intricate "Box with Lid" by Dave Brill.
How intricate?  25 steps [first step is to divide into fifths], nice two-
color effect.  This book might be in your local library.

Robert Harbin's _Origami 3: The Art of Paperfolding_ [Coronet Books, 1972,
paperback, ISBN 0-340-16655-X] has his "Box in One", a much simpler fold.
This book is probably impossible to come by.

The book _Convention 1993: The Annual Collection_ by the Friends of the
Origami Center [available from the Friends] has a lidded box, "Caja",
by Carlos Pomaron.

I'm sure there are more, but those are at least a start.

Bob Roos
roos@sophia.smith.edu





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 07:09:19 ADT
From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: box with lid

There's also one in Origami Omnibus, by Kasahara.

Bruce              CMSR, University of Liverpool
Use PGP 2.2; make private email private!





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 08:11:19 ADT
From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
Subject: Re: box with lid

In Message-Id <9307212335.AA16620@sophia.smith.edu>, Bob Roos writes:
>The book _Origami: Paperfolding for Fun_ by Eric Kenneway [Octopus Books, 1980,
>ISBN 0-7064-1015-7] has a fairly intricate "Box with Lid" by Dave Brill.
>How intricate?  25 steps [first step is to divide into fifths], nice two-
>color effect.  This book might be in your local library.

Thanks! I found the Kenneway box with lid at my library, as you suggested.
Any suggestions on how to *easily* divide paper into fifths?  I'd rather
not use a ruler.

By the way, the Kenneway book was the exact one I was looking for!

-- Javier

 + jhc%base00@codas.attmail.com     +  AT&T                               +
 + Javier Cubero                    +  Orlando, Florida                   +





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 08:19:54 ADT
From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: box with lid (dividing into fifths)

> Thanks! I found the Kenneway box with lid at my library, as you suggested.
> Any suggestions on how to *easily* divide paper into fifths?  I'd rather
> not use a ruler.
>
Origami for the Connoisseur gives a method, and also gives Dave Brill's box
as an application of it.

Bruce              CMSR, University of Liverpool
Use PGP 2.2; make private email private!





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 09:30:06 ADT
From: Paul Moloney <pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: newsgroup

Hello all,

At the moment in news.groups, I have started up a discussion which hopefully
will lead to the creation of rec.crafts.origami. Here is a copy of the first
Request for Discussion. If anyone can suggest any additions/improvements to
this, please let me know. Hopefully a call for voting can be issued in the
next few weeks unless there are any major obstacles.

P.

Proposed group:
     rec.crafts.origami

Charter of group:
       	
     rec.crafts.origami will be a newsgroup for postings related to the
     Japanese craft of _origami_, or paper-folding. The group would also
     cover other related topics of papercraft, such as Kirigami.

Background:

     'Origami' is the Japanese word for 'paper-folding' and it was adopted
     first in English and then in other languages in recognition of the
     long tradition of the Japanese people for folding paper.

     The Chinese invented paper, probably before the birth of Christ, and
     we can only guess that they were the first to fold paper. But we do
     know that by the twelfth century A.D. paper was used in Japan for
     ceremonial wrappers (_tsutsumi_) for storage of household goods, such
     as herbs, and for gifts, especially gifts of flowers where each kind
     of flower had its special wrapper. The present-day Japanese custom of
     attaching to gifts small tokens of folded paper called _noshi_ is a
     relic of this ceremonial paper-folding and there remain other survivals.

     Before the war, paper-folding in English-speaking countries had been
     limited to the traditional children's folds, but in the 1950s it began
     to develop.





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 10:39:18 ADT
From: Comet <COMET@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

Maybe it should be called "rec.crafts.paper" if it's going to include
"other related topics of papercraft".
--------                        ____________
Comet <comet@oracle.com>       /\  _________\    Oracle Corporation
Technical Analyst              \ \ \______  /    500 Oracle Parkway
Midrange Computer Systems       \ \ \Bi/ / /     Box 659312
Worldwide Technical Support      \ \ \/ / /      Redwood Shores, CA  94065-5041
                                  \ \/ / /
                                   \  / /
                                    \/_/





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 10:59:15 ADT
From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

> Maybe it should be called "rec.crafts.paper" if it's going to include
> "other related topics of papercraft".

Perhaps.  I don't see anything wrong with the name rec.crafts.origami, but I
would limit the charter to cover only things that you'd normally expect to be
in that section of a bookstore, for example.  So napkin folding should be in,
and kirigami, and paper aeroplanes.  But surely not cut&assemble cardboard
models---maybe I'm in the minority here, but I've seen such books with
"origami" on the front, and I think it's wrong! (I'm not trying to trivialise
such crafts, but they're not origami.)

In any case, if you possibly can, please hold this discussion in news.groups,
because that's the way we can show that origami has sufficient support in
the community.

If your site doesn't receive USENET, you can read it by using a public access
site such as nyx.cs.du.edu.  You can post to news.groups by sending email

> --------                        ____________
> Comet <comet@oracle.com>       /\  _________\    Oracle Corporation
> Technical Analyst              \ \ \______  /    500 Oracle Parkway
> Midrange Computer Systems       \ \ \Bi/ / /     Box 659312





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 12:17:02 ADT
From: bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com (Mike Bartolone 5-4266)
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

----- Begin Included Message -----

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 11:01:10 ADT
From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami

>> Maybe it should be called "rec.crafts.paper" if it's going to include
>> "other related topics of papercraft".

Sounds right...

>Perhaps.  I don't see anything wrong with the name rec.crafts.paper, but I
>would limit the charter to cover only things that you'd normally expect to
>be in that section of a bookstore, for example.  So napkin folding should
>be in, and kirigami, and paper aeroplanes.

What about paper mache...and actually making paper. These are paper crafts
too, and making paper could be concidered related to origami...I sure
wouldn't mind finding out how to make various kinds of paper that I could
try folding...

>In any case, if you possibly can, please hold this discussion in news.groups,
>because that's the way we can show that origami has sufficient support in
>the community.

Please keep crossposting/e-mailing this list though..





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 11:06:22 -0300 (ADT)
From: roos@sophia.smith.edu (Bob Roos)
Subject: Re: dividing into fifths

Don't know if this is the method in _Origami for the Connoisseur_, but
it's easy.  This isn't my method--it's based on one I read about
in _Manifold_, the newsletter of the Chicago Area Origami Society (CHAOS):

Divide into eighths (easy) by making 7 parallel creases.  Add a diagonal
crease from one corner to the end of the 5th crease.  The crossings
of these creases divide into fifths.  Here is a picture (this is supposed
to be a square!!!):

       	+---------+ ^
        |         | |  1/8
       	+---------+ v
        |         |
       	+---------+
        |         |
       	+---------+
        |        /|
       	+-------x-+
        |      /| |
       	+-----x---+
        |    /| | |
       	+---x-----+
        |  /| | | |
       	+-x-------+
        |/| | | | |
       	+---------+
          ^ ^ ^ ^
          | | | |
         1/5 marks

Variations on this method permit divisions into arbitrary fractions (but
add a lot of unnecessary creases).

Bob Roos
roos@sophia.smith.edu





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 12:42:55 ADT
From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

> Follow-up to: news.groups.usenet@decwrl.dec.com
> Newsgroups: news.groups
> Cc:
>
> >> Maybe it should be called "rec.crafts.paper" if it's going to include
> >> "other related topics of papercraft".
>
> Sounds right...
>
> >Perhaps.  I don't see anything wrong with the name rec.crafts.paper, but I
(I meant rec.crafts.origami here)
> >would limit the charter to cover only things that you'd normally expect to
> >be in that section of a bookstore, for example.  So napkin folding should
> >be in, and kirigami, and paper aeroplanes.
>
> What about paper mache...and actually making paper. These are paper crafts
> too, and making paper could be concidered related to origami...I sure
> wouldn't mind finding out how to make various kinds of paper that I could
> try folding...

Well, OK.  But I'd put papier mache in rec.crafts.misc, personally.  I agree
it's not clearcut, but I still think rec.crafts.origami is fine, and wouldn't
object to the occasional article on papermaking, or fun kinds of paper.

Bruce              CMSR, University of Liverpool
Use PGP 2.2; make private email private!





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 12:58:02 ADT
From: bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com (Mike Bartolone 5-4266)
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

>From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami
>
>> What about paper mache...and actually making paper.
>
>Well, OK.  But I'd put papier mache in rec.crafts.misc, personally.  I agree
>it's not clearcut, but I still think rec.crafts.origami is fine, and wouldn't
>object to the occasional article on papermaking, or fun kinds of paper.
>--
>Bruce              CMSR, University of Liverpool
>Use PGP 2.2; make private email private!

Actually I agree that paper mache does belong in rec.crafts.misc. I
was just making a point that we need to define the edges as well as possible,
and then we can still expect some slightly (but very slightly) off topic
postings if the group is called rec.crafts.paper. What we need is a firm
definition of which 'other related topics of papercraft' we will accept
as a matter of course, and which we will redirect or ignore. But then
we have not decided to toss out rec.crafts.origami, which would in
my opinion help in limiting the off topic posts.

Mike Bartlone
bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com or cs688@cleveland.freenet.edu





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 13:53:15 ADT
From: Henrik Oluf Olsen <AHF-HOLS@risoe.dk>
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

Hi.

> Actually I agree that paper mache does belong in rec.crafts.misc. I
> was just making a point that we need to define the edges as well as possible,
> and then we can still expect some slightly (but very slightly) off topic
> postings if the group is called rec.crafts.paper. What we need is a firm
> definition of which 'other related topics of papercraft' we will accept
> as a matter of course, and which we will redirect or ignore. But then
> we have not decided to toss out rec.crafts.origami, which would in
> my opinion help in limiting the off topic posts.
Another possibility is to call the new group rec.crafts.paper.origami
which will make room for later additions such as rec.crafts.paper.mache,
rec.crafts.paper.making and (-: rec.crafts.paper.burning :-)

* Internet: AHF-HOLS@RISOE.DK * "Enter freely and of you own will!"   *
*                             *                         Bram Stoker   *





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 14:03:55 ADT
From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

My personal vote is to keep it rec.crafts.origami.  This comfortably includes
napkin folding, and even origamic architecture, but leaves out some of the
more tangential topics like papier mache, paper dolls, and cut paper models.

-- Javier

 + jhc%base00@codas.attmail.com     +  AT&T                               +
 + Javier Cubero                    +  Orlando, Florida                   +

P.S.  I only have mail connection to internet, so some kind of origami mail
reflector would be nice, if we DO go to usenet.





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:15:42 ADT
From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

>Another possibility is to call the new group rec.crafts.paper.origami
>which will make room for later additions such as rec.crafts.paper.mache,
>rec.crafts.paper.making and (-: rec.crafts.paper.burning :-)

By Jove, I think that's it!  That takes care of both sides of the issue!

-- Javier

 + jhc%base00@codas.attmail.com     +  AT&T                               +
 + Javier Cubero                    +  Orlando, Florida                   +





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:20:09 ADT
From: Comet <COMET@us.oracle.com>
Subject: USEnet newsgroup CFD

rec.crafts.misc hasn't had much traffic in papercraft.  I'd say Why Not open
up the newsgroup to all papercraft?  I mean, we origamians will flood the
newsgroup with origami talk, so people coming into the newsgroup will know by
seeing all the articles that this is the center of our attention.  Like others
on this list, I am interested in a variety of papercraft, and blend them with
my "pure" origami work.  I dunno about NAPKIN folding, though, unless it's
paper.  =)  Still, I do have a needlepoint angelfish sewn to my cubicle wall
here at work, which I folded from a square of handmade lace.  The "Encyclopedia
of Papercraft and Origami" (or some similar title) is a very inspiring book.
I'd like to see all the ideas in it brought into focus in one place.  The
non-origami papercrafts have too little interest to have their own newsgroup,
and I'd prefer to give them a home in our newsgroup than to have to go grubbing
about in rec.crafts.misc!

Comet
437 Wessex Way
Belmont, CA  94002-2757





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:48:43 ADT
From: bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com (Mike Bartolone 5-4266)
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:15:49 ADT
>From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
>Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami
>
>>Another possibility is to call the new group rec.crafts.paper.origami
>>which will make room for later additions such as rec.crafts.paper.mache,
>>rec.crafts.paper.making and (-: rec.crafts.paper.burning :-)
>
>By Jove, I think that's it!  That takes care of both sides of the issue!
>
>-- Javier

This IS a good theoretical idea, however, I am sure, as soon as someone on
news.groups sees this, you will find there is a great deal of opposition
do not like adding hierarchies. I know this from experience. I tried to
get a rec.* group for bonsai a few months back..my first choice was
rec.arts.bonsai, my second choice was rec.gardens.bonsai, my third choice
was rec.crafts.bonsai. rec.gardens.bonsai got almost NO support because it
required making the current rec.gardens into rec.gardens.misc, and creating
a rec.gardens.* hierarchy. rec.crafts.bonsai died because frankly, I didn't
like it, and most of the people reading the existing newsgroup didn't like it
either. rec.bonsai was discussed, but most of the news admins didn't like it
because 'it added another hierarchy'.

How about just rec.crafts.papercraft? Maybe Paul (the originator of the idea)
can give us a run down on all of the possible names..

rec.crafts.origami
rec.crafts.paper
rec.crafts.papercraft

Were there any more?

Mike Bartolone
bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com or cs688@cleveland.freenet.edu





Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 23:49:12 ADT
From: andataco!vann@UCSD.EDU (V'Ann Cornelius)
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

Will someone please explain what is happening...
Is this group being replaced?

v'ann





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 07:46:04 ADT
From: Paul Moloney <pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: (newsgroup)

> From: andataco!vann@UCSD.EDU (V'Ann Cornelius)
> Will someone please explain what is happening...
> Is this group being replaced?
> v'ann

Nope; just because a group for origami is being created on the Net
does not mean that the mailing list become defunct; many groups
and lists that share the same purpose coexist at the present time
(i.e. soc.bi and BISEXU-L).

P.





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 07:47:19 ADT
From: Paul Moloney <pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: (newsgroup)

> Why not? but my site has very limited access to even alt.bonsai, and
> I am sure that I will not get access to the group.

> EYUP OZTURK    C50777 at TRMETU.BITNET

Well, as the newsgroup will be in the more widely propogated rec.*
hierarchy, hopefully you _will_ get this group, Eyup; many sites
don't propogate the alt.* hierarchy as it is not considered 'serious'.

P.





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 07:44:56 ADT
From: bruce <bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

> Will someone please explain what is happening...
> Is this group being replaced?
> v'ann

No, the mailing list will stay as it is until someone decides to change it.
What is being talked about is a new USENET newsgroup for origami (or
papercrafts or whatever).  USENET is a bulletin-board type system that
reaches thousands of sites, and (potentially) millions of people in
Universities, companies and private homes worldwide.  There are currently
about 5000 newsgroups worldwide, though I suppose a couple of thousand
of them are of local interest only.  At Liverpool we only receive a couple
of thousand newsgroups, for example.

What's being discussed is the creation of a new newsgroup, rec.crafts.origami
(or something) to discuss origami.  It would go alongside
rec.crafts.metalworking, rec.crafts.brewing, rec.crafts.textiles, and
rec.crafts.misc.

There are two stages to the creation of a newsgroup.  This is the first, the
request for discussion, to decide a suitable name and charter for the
newsgroup.  Assuming there seems to be enough interest, it will go to a
vote in a few weeks time (unfortunately coinciding with holiday seasons unless
it's delayed by a few more weeks).  Votes are done by email.  And then,
assuming it is passed, the newsgroup will be created.

Mailing lists and newsgroups can coexist quite happily.  The two can either
be tied together in such a way that all things sent to one appear in the
other, or they can exist independently.

Bruce              CMSR, University of Liverpool





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 09:46:43 ADT
From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
Subject: Re: Coming of Age

(I sent this out a few days ago, but it never got posted back to me,
 so I don't think it went. Pardon me if it's a repeat).

    in MTS-Message-ID<internet2011541470>, Bruce writes:
>The sea horse and the starfish are nice, and quite simple.
>...
>The one I just can't seem to get is the giant clam, which is a
>shame, since it's supposed to open and close.

Actually, I did the sea horse (I'd forgotten, not having the book
next to me).  I tried the giant clam, but it was wobbly, and did not open and
close.  At most, It waggled a little and tried to come apart.  I think for
the giant clam, a *large* piece of *very* stiff paper and wet-folding are a
must.  Otherwise, the thing does not seem to hold its shape.  Were you having
trouble with a particular step, or were the results just not good?  I confess
mine became a cat toy about 30 seconds after completion, when I saw it was
just Not Right.

>There's the annual BOS convention in September, but that's probably a bit
>far for you to come just for a weekend!

No problem!  Just send me a plane ticket, and I'll be there :-)

-- Javier

 + jhc%base00@codas.attmail.com     +  AT&T                               +
 + Javier Cubero                    +  Orlando, Florida                   +





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 12:12:07 ADT
From: base00!jhc@codas.attmail.com
Subject: Re: Chambered Nautilus

( I tried to send this out a few days ago, but I believe it bounced.
  Please pardon any repetition).

In MTS-Message-ID <internet2011727120> Penelope R. Chua writes:

>I would appreciate any comments on how to fold the chambered nautilus in
>the origami sealife book by Montroll and Lang.  I seem to get stuck at the
>refolding-along-the-creases-stage.

Well, I finally figured that one out, with some help from members of my
local origami club.  The key is to open the flaps on the model, so each
layer goes *inside* the last one.  Open the flaps, then valley fold the first
horizontal crease and mountain fold the second.  This will bring the third
crease right on top of the first.  Close the flaps back up *carefully*, and
if you did everything right, it should fold up as expected.  If this isn't
clear enough, I'll be glad to elaborate for anyone interested.

>Other than that, my favourite models
>out of this book are the black-devil angler fish (or was it the deep-sea
>angler? - it was the one with all the fangs)

Yeah, that's the black-devil angler.  I've been hesitant to try that one.
But now that I know it CAN be done, I'm going home and folding one!  I'll
probably be soliciting help tomorrow....

>... and the kermit crab model.

kermit crab: a cross between a frog and a crab.  :-)

>The lobster is also very nice, but I personally prefer
>Montroll's earlier lobster model from Animal Origami For the Enthusiast.

I think so too.  I believe Montroll has done *several* lobster and elephant
models, I don't know if he has repeated any others.  Any other comments on which
elephant/lobster/whatever is the best?

A very nice model I recently did, in the sea life/crustacean theme, was Engel's
dollar bill crab.  It's intricate, and the result is barely an inch across,
but after pressing under some books (It's quite thick) it looks great.

-- Javier

 + jhc%base00@codas.attmail.com     +  AT&T                               +
 + Javier Cubero                    +  Orlando, Florida                   +





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 14:08:51 ADT
From: sheehan@niwot.scd.ucar.EDU (Tim Sheehan)
Subject: Folding the Universe

I am trying to find a source where I can purchase the book "Folding
the Universe" by Peter Engel. My local library has a copy of it that
I can borrow, but I would really like to have my own copy. Does
anyone know where I can purchase a new or used copy of this book?

Thanks.

-Tim-
sheehan@ncar.ucar.edu





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 14:25:20 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Dollar bill sail boat

Hello,

Along time ago I had a pattern for a sail boat that was folded
out of a dollar bill and have lost it.  It was 3D and could stand
alone.  Does anyone recall ever seeing this?  I believe it came
from a pamphlet from an Origami group.  I really loved that pattern
and would gladly send a SASE to anyone who could help.

With much appreciation,

Nancy Nietupski
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 14:27:47 ADT
From: bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com (Mike Bartolone 5-4266)
Subject: Re: Folding the Universe

To get a copy of the book you are looking for (Folding The Universe)
go to the library, get the ISBN number and publisher name. Go to a
near by book store and ask them if they could order it, or look for a
used book store and see if they can help you...





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 16:26:15 ADT
From: sheehan@niwot.scd.ucar.EDU (Tim Sheehan)
Subject: Folding the Universe

>From bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com Fri Jul 23 13:00:40 1993:
> To get a copy of the book you are looking for (Folding The Universe)
> go to the library, get the ISBN number and publisher name. Go to a
> near by book store and ask them if they could order it, or look for a
> used book store and see if they can help you...

I guess I should have been more explicit for the reason for my
request. This book is out of print and I have already checked the
obvious potential sources. If it were as easy to find a copy as you
suggest, I would already own one.

So again, if anyone kows of a definite source for Peter Engel's
"Folding the Universe," please let me know.

-Tim-
sheehan@ncar.ucar.edu.





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 17:41:38 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

I'm not very familar with the newsnet groups, would we need to
vote for the formation of a new origami new group to make it
happen?  I think it sounds great, but I don't know how to vote.
How many votes are needed to make it happen?

Nancy





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 17:54:51 ADT
From: bartlone@colossus.med.ge.com (Mike Bartolone 5-4266)
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

Ok, appearently there are a lot more folks out there than I thought that
don't know about this stuff...here goes.

The voting period has not started yet..when it does an official document
called the "Call For Votes" will be issued. It will be posted here to the
mailing list as well as to several usenet newsgroups which are the required
place for it to be posted. This document will contain instructions for
how, and where to vote for or against the proposal. The current rules of
newsgroup creation call for a new group to be crated if the number of "yes"
votes exceeds the number of "no" votes by 100, AND 2/3rds of all votes are
in favor of the formation of the group.

When the CFV is issued, I would encourage ALL of you to vote as explained in
the CFV. I do not care if you vote against the group (yes I do, but that's
beside the point..), but I think this is an area of interest to us, and it
will NOT take people away from the mailing list. It may even gain readers for
the mailing list!

Mike





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 18:40:01 ADT
From: "Kevin J. Barth" <barth@wam.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

Um...just out of curiosity, what do you see as the difference between the
mailing list and the newsgroup, content-wise?  This isn't a flame, but
if the two are just going to be duplicate efforts, it seems that the one
is going to supercede the other.  I know that some (Tim Pierce, et al)
will probably vote negatively on the group if he thinks that there will be
no difference between the two.

Kevin Barth
barth@wam.umd.edu





Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 20:37:02 ADT
From: Comet <COMET@us.oracle.com>
Subject: difference between the mailing list and the newsgroup

Let's posit that there would be NO difference between the mailing list and the
newsgroup, content-wise.  (Of course, having different people being different
members of each would invalidate this assumption immediately, unless we
further assume a news->mail and mail<-news pair of smart gateways {don't want
messages to bounce back and forth, but I digress}.)

>From this, it does *not* follow that "the two are just going to be duplicate
efforts."  This is because a USEnet Newsgroup is an inherently different format
than a mailing list.  Analogously, we have news-radio stations at the same time
we have Cable news TV stations, and we would, even if there were no difference
between the services, content-wise.

A mailing list is, as you have observed, a pseudo-interactive format, with a
quasi-private focus; for those of us who are always logged on during the day,
the "New Mail from server@nstn.ns.ca" message interrupts our attention, and
we are forced to deal with the mailing-list(s) to keep our "private" messages
in order.

A USEnet newsgroup, on the other hand, is a broadcast media.  Unread articles
in one newsgroup do not make it any harder to read articles in another
newsgroup.  The old articles remain there for a while, available to be
referenced, but out-of-the-way of reading new articles.  It is easy to tell
at a glance the various topics, and Newsreaders support common features
such as the "killfile", to allow one to prune the messages even before
reading them.  Even with this enabled, it is still possible to go back and
read "killed" files.  USEnet newsgroup allows and fosters cross-pollination
of ideas from other topics, (occasionally to the benefit of the newsgroup).

--------                        ____________
Comet <comet@oracle.com>       /\  _________\    Oracle Corporation
Technical Analyst              \ \ \______  /    500 Oracle Parkway
Midrange Computer Systems       \ \ \bi/ / /     Box 659312
Worldwide Technical Support      \ \ \/ / /      Redwood Shores, CA  94065-5041
                                  \ \/ / /
                                   \  / /
                                    \/_/





Date: Sat, 24 Jul 93 01:40:34 ADT
From: awong@cns.caltech.edu (A Wong)
Subject: Re: Address list

I wrote to the West Coast Origami Guild in Pasadena and just received
my envelope returned marked box closed (P.O.Box 90601) and there is no
forwarding address.  Does anyone have the new address for this group?
Thanks.

Al Wong
awong@cns.caltech.edu





Date: Sat, 24 Jul 93 11:27:53 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Organization Addresses

Hello,

I'm new on this list but very excited to know that there are other
folks out there with a great love for craft too!  Which brings me to
my question - Can some one please give me an address to write to
to join Friends of Origami, and does anyone know if there is a
group in Western Michigan (I'm from Grand Rapids)?

It will be great to finally be able to talk to others about various
patterns and difficult authors (like J. Montroll!)

Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Sat, 24 Jul 93 22:56:12 ADT
From: elsa@cheshire.com (Elsa Chen)
Subject: why rec.crafts? (newsgroup)

rec.crafts.origami sounds like a wonderful idea, but why start as
rec.crafts rather than rec.arts?

If humility, then it seems sadly misplaced to me. Origami,
papermaking, and other papercraft are all arts, with their own
methods, virtuosi, masterpieces and amateurs who may someday or never
aspire to be virtuosi as well.

e.g., some analogies:

       	origami      	     	    	music
       	creator       	      	     	composer
       	folder	       	      	performer/player/student/enthusiast
       	diagrams      	     	score/sheet music
       	exhibition    	   	concert
       	photos	       	      	CDs

- Elsa





Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 02:42:04 ADT
From: andataco!vann@UCSD.EDU (V'Ann Cornelius)
Subject: Re: Folding the Universe

Folding the Universe is out of print. The Friends Supply Center only
had one copy left at the convention and it was auctioned.
I'm hoping someone will be responding with word about a cache of them
somewhere.
-v'ann-                             1828 Dora Drive
                                    Cardiff-by-the-Sea, CA 92007
vann@andataco.com                   (619) 753-9623





Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 09:42:45 ADT
From: Paul Moloney <pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: (newsgroup)

> To: Multiple recipients of list <origami-l@nstn.ns.ca>
> rec.crafts.origami sounds like a wonderful idea, but why start as
> rec.crafts rather than rec.arts?
> If humility, then it seems sadly misplaced to me. Origami,
> papermaking, and other papercraft are all arts, with their own
> methods, virtuosi, masterpieces and amateurs who may someday or never
> aspire to be virtuosi as well.
>
> e.g., some analogies:
>
>      	origami    	   	  	music [etc]

Well, your analogy works well with an art such as music, but the same
analogy could also be used to compare it to many crafts, such as
glass- or metal-working.

Origami is, basically, creating objects from material (in this case,
paper), and as such I think it should be in the crafts.* hierarchy.
I don't see humility as a reason to put the new newsgroup in the
crafts hierarchy either; this would suppose that I regard 'crafts'
as any less worthy than 'art', which I do not.

P.





Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 14:29:17 ADT
From: ab682@leo.nmc.edu (Nancy Nietupski)
Subject: Favorite Origami Books

    Being very new to this group, I was wondering if the membership
has a preference to one type of origami or an other.  I'm hoping
that the old philosophy of - one piece of uncut paper - is not
the only preference.  I am a fan of Kunihiko Kasahara myself.  Perhaps
because I can fold his work as apposed to ruin John Montrolls.
Right now I am having a ball (literally!) with _Unit Origami_ by
Tomoko Fuse.

Nancy
ab682@leo.nmc.edu





Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 22:28:12 ADT
From: Jeremy.Uejio@Eng.Sun.COM (Jeremy Y Uejio)
Subject: Re: Folding the Universe

> Folding the Universe is out of print. The Friends Supply Center only
> had one copy left at the convention and it was auctioned.
> I'm hoping someone will be responding with word about a cache of them
> somewhere.
> -v'ann-                             1828 Dora Drive
>                                     Cardiff-by-the-Sea, CA 92007
> vann@andataco.com                   (619) 753-9623

I just bought my copy probably less than a year ago.  My brother, who
is not really into Origami, coincidentally also bought the book.  If
anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area area wants to borrow Folding the
Universe, let me know and maybe we can work something out.

       	      	     	    	jeremy.uejio@eng.sun.com





Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 23:11:40 ADT
From: cosell@world.std.com (Bernie Cosell)
Subject: Re: rec.crafts.origami (newsgroup)

In <Pine.3.07.9307231726.A3619-b100000@rac3.wam.umd.edu> on Jul 23, Kevin J. Barth wrote:

} Um...just out of curiosity, what do you see as the difference between the
} mailing list and the newsgroup, content-wise?

The difference in content will be not too much --- there's no inherent
content control on either usenet OR a mailing list, and the content
is whatever the participants make it.  There are good and
bad mailing lists, and good and bad newsgroups.  The major effect
usenet would have on content would be as a side effect of exposing
us to a LOT more folk.  Moreover, the exposure is active [that is,
folks can easily find out about the group, without hardly doing anything]
as opposed to now where it is passive [that is, the existence of the
mailing list is barely more than a fairly well-kept secret].

This means that more folk who haven't a clue about origami will
'drop in'.  [this isn't all bad: yes we'll see some really off the
mark, dumb questions; but on the other hand we'll also get the
chance to introduce some new folk to origami] But it also means
that a LOT of folk who _do_ know origami but would have never
guessed that the mailing list exists WILL find it.  [e.g., usenet,
for sure, extends to japan --- there could be some *really*
exciting new participants!]

} ...   This isn't a flame, but
} if the two are just going to be duplicate efforts, it seems that the one
} is going to supercede the other.  I know that some (Tim Pierce, et al)
} will probably vote negatively on the group if he thinks that there will be
} no difference between the two.

Ah, but you didn't ask if there was to be 'no difference', only if
the *content* was to be any different.  There are [at the least]
two nontrivial differences between mailing lists and newsgroups:
  1) folks can come and go by their own action.  In addition to giving
     a more vital membership, it also means [at the very least] that you'll
     never again see one of those dumb "Please remove me from the mailing
     list" messages.  Every September will be an adventure as incoming
     students get usenet accounts and join in.
  2) As a rule, the usenet user-interfaces are *much* better than any
     email user-interface I've seen.  They allow you to consider the
     correspondence by topic ---that is, you'll only see the origami stuff
     when you're ready to and want to, instead of having it mixed in,
     scatter-shot, with all of your other correspondence, and moreover
     all of the origami stuff will be together and separate from any
     other topics you may be following.  It is possible to do this kind
     of thing with some mail systems [I did it on my mail system in a
     former lifetime], but it is never quite easy and certainly not as
     smooth as the usenet 'newsgroup' mechanisms.

     Second, the messages are grouped by subject and you can read them
     by subject [and you can ignore them ['kill' them in usenet parlance]
     by subject].  This makes a HUGE difference when the group gets vital
     enough that it'll be 'discussing' several subjects at once.

It is possible to set up a two-way gateway between newsgroups and mailing
lists.  I don't know quite how to do it and/or who would administer it,
but it is possible and when done right seems to work OK.

In some sense, though, I might agree with Tim, but backwards:
to my view, usenet is SO much better a medium for 'group discussions'
than email is, that if the newsgroup comes to life [I'll be voting
'yes', for sure] I'd probably argue that we should just abandon the
mailing list and migrate over to the newsgroup and forget about setting
up a gateway.

  /Bernie\

Bernie Cosell                               cosell@world.std.com
Fantasy Farm Fibers, Pearisburg, VA         (703) 921-2358
