Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!nigel.msen.com!spool.mu.edu!enterpoop.mit.edu!eff!ddsw1!chinet!jorn
From: jorn@chinet.chi.il.us (Jorn Barger)
Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as Literature
Message-ID: <C4MDwF.9yE@chinet.chi.il.us>
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
References: <schweda.733251021@vincent1.iastate.edu> <C4L5Bq.Gp6@chinet.chi.il.us> <schweda.733325189@vincent1.iastate.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 22:17:03 GMT
Lines: 70

I wrote:
> >So long as the puzzles are all 'materialistic' (arrange physical items in
> >a certain way), the mythology will necessarily be painted on...  But if
> >you can add enough psychological simulation that *solving the puzzles*
> >demands 'simulated virtue'... then I think you begin to tap deeper 
> >emotional responses.
> >Courage, humility, honesty, self-restraint, justice, charity, optimism...
> >Some role-playing games give points for virtuous acts, don't they?

Chris Schweda replies:
> I guess the question is: how to create an authentic world, create a
> "simulated virtue," yet steer clear of a strictly clever, point-oriented
> quest. Obviously, this seems less like an IF adventure than it does a
> more normal, literate epic.
> I mean, as Telemachus began his quest for his father, he wasn't in search
> of "points." So I wonder if the goal in IF was less point-oriented and more
> virtue oriented -- would this seem more "literary?"
> In every IF game I've played, the issue of whether or not the quest has
> succeeded is always based upon points. "Where's the last two points I
> need to finished this adventure?" "Did you stick the torch in the trophy
> case?" "Oh yeah. Okay. Now I'm finished." This is fun, sure -- but where's
> the virtue (real or simulated) here?

I'm not very conversant with the traditions of adventure-gaming or RPGs, so 
I'm seriously interested to know what's been done here, beyond 'inventory-
puzzles'.  I've heard of people "meditating" or doing kind acts to gain 
'virtue-points', and I remember someone saying they knew a game where stealing 
from shopkeepers secretly reduced your karmic luck levels.

So some of this can be modelled *extremely* easily, and the challenge is to 
take it farther and farther.

Humility?  You'll have to have the *ability* to brag, first.  Jerks who lie 
about their occupation, say, is a simple example.

Justice, in a romance setting?  Not stealing the good guy from his current 
flame?  Not seducing a woman you don't intend to marry?

"It is improper to love a woman whom one would be ashamed to desire in 
marriage."
        12th C. Code of Love

Feeling compassion for jerks' feelings?

"...in a moment she would have to humiliate a man she was fond of.  And 
humiliate him cruelly..."
        Tolstoy [AK 62]

    under her heel
    the crunch of breaking glass


I had asked, but didn't hear back about:
> >Hmmmm... a videogame about a culture centered around poetic values, 
> >co-opted by violent patriarchy? (Tell me more! ;^)
> 
(What did Graves suggest to you?  I really am interested :^)

Chris D. Nebel:
> (BTW, does anyone archive this group?
FAQ:
If you can't find what you want on a local archive, try ftp.gmd.de in Bonn,
Germany.  Under /if-archive you can find IF languages, completed games, and
archives of discussions on rec.arts.int-fiction and rec.games.int-fiction.
They accept contributions in /tmp/if-uploads; if you do, notify blasius@gmd.de 
explaining what it is and what it runs on.

The ftp.gmd.de if-archive has recently become mirrored in the US, at
wuarchive.wustl.edu, in /doc/misc/if-archive.  

