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From: Martin Buchholz <mrb@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: Rick Campbell <rickc@lehman.com>
Cc: georgn@canada.Sun.COM, XEmacs Beta List <xemacs-beta@xemacs.org>
Subject: Re: Solaris dynamics? 
In-Reply-To: <9707031753.AA04163@cfdevx1.lehman.com>
References: <199707031510.LAA08224@verve.canada.sun.com>
	<9707031753.AA04163@cfdevx1.lehman.com>
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Reply-To: Martin Buchholz <mrb@Eng.Sun.COM>

>>>>> "Rick" == Rick Campbell <rickc@lehman.com> writes:

Rick>     Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:10:38 -0400
Rick>     From: Georg Nikodym <georgn@canada.sun.com>
    
>>>>>> "RC" == Rick Campbell <rickc@lehman.com> writes:
    
RC> The caveats here are interesting in and of themselves, but it
RC> simply amazes me that now the *recommended* mechanism is to try
RC> to find the oldest environment possible to do your builds.  This
RC> should be an indication that maybe this concept isn't really
RC> worked out very well as yet.
    
Rick>     This has _always_ been the recommended practice.  It is unfortunate
Rick>     that this hasn't been communicated as well as it might be.

Rick> Maybe for dynamicly linked stuff.  But that's precisely the point that
Rick> I'm trying to make.  When your technology creates a situation that
Rick> encourages the use of the oldest versions in sight, something is
Rick> wrong.
    
Rick>     You are not prevented from static linking with anything but the system 
Rick>     libraries as shipped by Sun.

Rick> And if the exception were eliminated, I wouldn't have a problem.
Rick> There is no good reason for tying developers hands in this manner.

Sun wants to be able to modify the *implementation* of system
libraries in ways that are backward-compatible if linked dynamically,
but not statically.  Linking statically is not a guarantee of being
able to run on future versions.  Statically linked apps makes the OS
developers' life more difficult, in perpetuity.

Anyways, I do agree that Sun should provide static system libraries,
along with the usual disclaimers.  But just because something is
useful to some customers doesn't mean it gets shipped.  Eventually the
question "What about support?" raises its ugly head.  This is likely
the reason why, for example, perl isn't shipped with Solaris.

Rick>     However, the contortions required to make that software work and my
Rick>     resultant irritation are not the fault of Sun.

Rick> On other systems, I don't have the problem.  Sun has very
Rick> intentionally been promoting a relatively new (in the grand scheme of
Rick> things) technology to the point where they now actively prevent the
Rick> use of tried-and-true mechanisms.  One result is that it is much
Rick> easier to build and distribute programs that won't run correctly.
Rick> When you make it easier, it will happen more, i. e. it sure the hell
Rick> is Sun's fault.
    
RC> Hmmm....  A lot of the machines at my site are still running 2.3.
    
Rick> Anyway, my point was that Martin's choice of ``the oldest OS version
Rick> around'' isn't really all that old.  However, he shouldn't have to be
Rick> worrying about such things.  He should be able to build on 2.6.  In
Rick> fact, as was brought out at the start of this conversation, the
Rick> executable *does* work on older versions -- you have to lie about the
Rick> names of the dynamic libraries, but once you do, things work.  The
Rick> stumbling block is the way that the underlying mechanism works, that
Rick> is, the part that's Sun's doing.

The `oldest OS version around' would likely have been 2.3, given just
the time gap.  But 2.4 was widely recognized as the first Solaris
release that actually works, so customers are encouraged a little more 
than usual to upgrade.  Unlike the SunOS4 to Solaris2 switch, there is 
really no reason to prefer Solaris 2.3 to 2.4.  Currently, Solaris
2.5.1 is clearly the best Solaris around, in just about every way.

RC> Unfortunately, under Solaris, it seems like I've got to
RC> be running the oldest thing available so that my users can
RC> actually run what I build.

No, you work on the latest and greatest system - you just have to have
an old cranky build machine in the closet to do your production
builds, in the middle of the night.  In your case, that system should
probably be running 2.3, and not have Motif installed...

Martin

