Message-ID: <3c82e48a_3@corp-news.newsgroups.com>
From: CardinalT <cardinalt@helpmejebus.com>
Subject: Re: I need a language (Hugo, TADS, Inform).
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:04:03 -0800
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Dylan Fehrle wrote:

> Dose Inform lend itself easily to graphics and sound?
>>It appears to me that it does not.  I would like the flexibility to
> use them >as I would in Hugo, TADS, and Adrift.

Since this is a question about Inform, I'll let the Inform partisans answer
it.


> Is there a compiler/debugger/text editor all in one app for any of
> these languages, possibly with help files?
>>Currently working in any of the languages I use, I can write,
> compile, and >debug all in one app; setting break points, pausing etc.

In addition to its compiler and runtime engine, Hugo has a very fine
source-level debugger, but there's no wrapper program. However, I've always
used them as standalones and never been bothered by it in the least. What
you have are three programs, conveniently named:

hc (Hugo compiler)
he (Hugo engine)
hd (Hugo debugger)

You can easily set the compiler to output a debug file along with its
normal output when you run it, so that all you have to do to run the
debugger with your gamefile is type:

hd mygame

So while Hugo doesn't have a wrapper program, it really couldn't be any
easier to use.


> If I were to choose one of the "big three" is there a language
> specific site or sites, other than here, that offers advice?
>>One of the things that drew me toward Adrift was the active
> community; >websites, tutorials, FAQ, and its own message board.

I don't know if there are any Hugo programming sites. Being an early
adopter of the language, I've always relied on my own wits (and countless
emails to the ever-patient Kent) to get me by. If you have any questions,
feel free to email me (jnewl@pacbell.net) and I'll try to answer them for
you. Chances are I can, or can at least come close, since, while I'm not
God's gift to the programming world, I do know my way around Hugo pretty
well. If not, we can bump them up to the big man himself.

(See? How's that? Personalized service. What mere website offers that?)

> Which language would have the lowest learning curve based on my
> limited experience (given above)?

As someone who's used all three: Hugo. My first IF language was Inform 4,
circa 1994 or so. I learned to program IF with it, and became pretty
proficient with its basic functions. However, the library was all but
incomprehensible to me at the time, and in order to do really fancy stuff
you need to be able to hack the library. Moreover, I never really warmed to
all the arcane punctuation requirements and so on that Inform puts on the
programmer, so after about a year or so I started looking around for
something else. TADS being the other of the Big Two at the time, I tried it
briefly, but even though I could see it was equally powerful in terms of
capabilities, and actually wrote a couple of simple games with it, I just
didn't like the programming style and found it difficult. I had learned the
Inform way, and that's the way I felt most comfortable with. At that point
I was becoming rather discouraged, but then, lo and behold, I ran across
this new language that incorporated the best qualities of Inform while
doing away with most of the fuss. It was called Hugo. I tried it, loved it,
and have been with it ever since.

Anyway, while there are hurdles to be overcome in any of these languages
simply by virtue of their being specialized and designed to accomplish
specific tasks, the actual programming style of Hugo is the simplest and
most straightforward of the C-like languages for newcomers to learn, in my
opinion. Moreover, the library is much more hack-friendly than
Inform's--although I can't say that about TADS, since I never tried to hack
its library. Hugo is also very graphics- and sound-friendly. It's easy to
incorporate these elements into your game (although the documentation has
been sparse in the past; I don't know if it still is, but if you decide on
Hugo and need help, email me).


>>I have learned all I know about the above languages using apps and
> their >respective help files: VB and Sequel, from MS Access, HTML from
> Dreamweaver, >and EBasic from Attachmate.  I have downloaded the
> manuals for all of the >above and find them quite cryptic.

Hmm. I've never quite understood this. I think the Hugo manual is pretty
good, actually, although for learning the basic design discipline of IF
itself you need Graham Nelson's Design Guide. It's intended for Inform
users, but once you grasp the basic concepts it's easily translateable to
Hugo.

I think part of the problem people have is that they expect to pick up a
book, read it, and instantly be an IF programmer. Unfortunately, it just
doesn't work that way. There's hours of coding, compiling, recoding, and
recompiling ahead of you before you begin to get a real grasp of what's
going on. I believe that's probably true even in the case of professional
programmers. While they can read the code well enough, the overall focus
and emphases of such specialized languages as these can be just as cryptic
to them as to rank newbies. So don't lose heart if you don't understand
something. We've all been there.


> And finally&#8230;
> I consider myself a fairly proficient writer.  If, in the case, that I
> am unable to overcome the learning curve is there a community for
> collaboration, i.e. programmers and writers?
>>I have many stories I wish to tell and have in fact have most of them
> "treed" >out.   I would hate for them to go to waste.

I tried this once. Didn't work. YMMV.


--
--CardinalT
  Archbishop of Frith and Funeral Barker to the Stars
