Message-ID: <3B8F8246.94DFFEB5@csi.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:25:42 -0400
From: John Colagioia <JColagioia@csi.com>
Organization: No Conspiracy Here...
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,fr,ru,es,it,ga,de,ja,gd,eu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: English has no grammar? (was: Strange (human?) languages for IF)
References: <fd7c35e9.0108120701.613576e7@posting.google.com> <9miaf0$iqm$2@news.lth.se> <3B8D5780.8ACF0D6C@attglobal.net> <3B8E3051.F6DC1E83@csi.com> <9mlc3l$cc1$2@news.lth.se> <3B8E4D3E.4CC93908@csi.com> <3b8ebf9a.25780632@News.CIS.DFN.DE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.34.37.104
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.34.37.104
X-Trace: excalibur.gbmtech.net 999260597 208.34.37.104 (31 Aug 2001 08:23:17 EST)
Lines: 30
X-Authenticated-User: jnc
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Path: news.duke.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news-reader.ntrnet.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!excalibur.gbmtech.net
Xref: news.duke.edu rec.arts.int-fiction:91855

Michael Brazier wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:27:11 -0400, John Colagioia <JColagioia@csi.com>
> wrote:
> >> Also, I suspect that 99.99% of all English speakers will sense that
> >> there is something wrong with "English good-talker me is", even if
> >> they can't define exactly what is wrong. And what's wrong with it?
> >> well, it doesn't conform to standard English grammar, of course!
> >Well, you're right in that it doesn't conform to the standard.  However, what
> >about something more innocuous, like, "The ability to speak coherent English
> >fluently is one of which I am in posession."  It conforms fine, but is
> >extremely awkward, and a good percentage of people will probably look for a
> >fault with it.
> >Ironically, that sentence can be made less awkward and more understandable by
> >violating a few rules (some of which, incidentally, have been discarded as
> >rules).  Split the infinitive verb ("to speak") with the adverb "fluently,"
> >and end the sentence with the preposition "of," and it's much smoother,
> >though an older English teacher would cringe.
> On the other hand, you can express the same idea quite straightforwardly:
> "I can speak English fluently" does it in five words, with no awkward
> subordinate clauses.

Down to the first foot, though (well, we're out of hands, right?), that only
expresses the same idea out of context.  There might be other reasons that one
would use the more verbose sentence.

Besides, fluent English does not in any way imply coherent English.  "Colorless
green dreams sleep furiously," and all that jazz.


