Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: nntp.gmd.de!Dortmund.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: More on What IF is...
Message-ID: <erkyrathDy6z8q.LE2@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <xktybi1gvu4.fsf@moe.Myrias.AB.CA>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:34:01 GMT
Lines: 89
Sender: erkyrath@netcom.netcom.com

Subject: Re: More on What IF is...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
References: <xktybi1gvu4.fsf@moe.Myrias.AB.CA>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Jean-Henri Duteau (jeand@myrias.com) wrote:
> It's funny but there seem to be two different viewpoints on the
> subject of IF viewpoint (no pun intended).  Some people go with the
> attitude, "It works, so why fix it?".  Others are willing to admit
> that a change in scenery would add a lot to some fiction.

If you're going to divide us into "people who agree with me" versus
"people who are wrong", I'm not playing. 

> And I suppose that's what I'm leading up to in all this nattering, I
> think that we're going to use up the current IF modes fairly soon as
> more and more authors realize that it's a STORY that we want and not a
> game.  I really think that there's only so much of a story one can
> tell in 2nd person viewpoint.  I would like to see more stories
> written in some other viewpoint.  I believe that, to make this
> realistic, the programming would be much harder.

> I disagree with Andrew who says that the programming won't be harder,
> just a matter of changing the strings.  If all you did was change the
> strings, I don't think your story would read very well.  And you
> probably wouldn't suspend the belief of the "reader".

I guess I see two separate issues here: viewpoint and characterization. 
Viewpoint, 2nd or 3rd, *is* just a matter of changing strings, *has* been
done before, and (in my opinion) has nothing to do with characterization. 
You can use exactly the same writing techniques in 2nd and 3rd person. I
think it would be as effective for me (as a player.) Perhaps it would not
be as effective for you; but my point is, game authors to date have not
been limited by their choice of 2nd person.

Am I expressing myself coherently? (I doubt it.) Let me go back to your 
example from a previous post:

[What do you want him to do?]
>ENTER THE CITY
>Although feelings of fear try to weaken his knees, he starts to walk 
>toward the city. Sparks of memories seem to flash in his mind, 
>thoughts about his wife and his family. He wonders if he ever will
>see them again........ 

Had I (as an author) wanted to use this writing effect, I would have 
written it in precise parallel:

>ENTER THE CITY
>Although feelings of fear try to weaken your knees, you start to walk 
>toward the city. Sparks of memories seem to flash in your mind, 
>thoughts about your wife and his family. You wonder if you ever will
>see them again........ 

Maybe that doesn't work for you. I think it works for most people on this 
newsgroup, because the convention has been around so long. But if you're 
not finding this sort of game, it's not because the 2nd-person style 
makes it unavailable to us. It is available; and the programming is 
identical.

(Furthermore, I think it's being used. Most games use it at key points in 
the plot, rather than all the way through. I've certainly tried to do 
this sort of thing myself. Check out _So Far_ and "A Change in the 
Weather" (particularly the second phase of "Weather".)

I think you're missing the forest for the trees on your own idea. As 
nearly as I can tell, you're thinking of a richer flavor of interaction, 
with more context-sensitive messages about the protagonist's emotional 
state -- which happens to be in 3rd person. But it's the interaction 
which is interesting, not the viewpoint.

> Lastly, for those of you who have indicated I should "put up or shut
> up", I've begun the coding of my one-room example.  It's one part of a
> murder mystery where you watch and lead the exploits of Jack McKane in
> his search for a black book that will lead to the conviction of a
> local Mafioso.  Unfortunately, it will probably be ready just after
> "Avalon" is released 8-), since I have a ton of other projects
> on-the-go.  But once it's finished, we might have something more to
> discuss.

I look forward to it. 

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
