Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!ddsw1!chinet!jorn
From: jorn@chinet.chi.il.us (Jorn Barger)
Subject: Re: TADS object system, and romance extensions
Message-ID: <C47MDx.JJu@chinet.chi.il.us>
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
References: <C45MCt.LC8@chinet.chi.il.us>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 22:56:21 GMT
Lines: 151

David Whitten writes:
> Jorn has posted a simple TADS model of the 'romance' adventure. I decided
> to give you all some of my ideas:
[elaborate environment details omitted]

Careful, here...  For each *object* you introduce, you oughta suggest a 
couple of *interesting story twists* it makes possible.

> Beginning situation:
>         player wakes up in bed.
>         needs to decide what to wear for party/date
>         Decisions about clothing can be used to model kind of person
>         the player wishes to be - Formal attire vs. grungy blue jeans etc.

I really think this module has potential, and paperdolls is half of it, 
while strip poker is the other half.  You really need to plan what you 
wear based on where and how you're expecting it to come off...

> I agree that this i-f depends on
>         1) reasonable good actor/character models
>                 including mental states/emotions
>         2) good parser - for pickup lines, for 'talking'
>                 better than VERB NOUN
>         3) some way of managing plots
>                 allowing plots to progress independently
>                 dating multiple people at one time?
>         4) some model for romantic relationships
>                 stages of getting to know someone...
>         5) events, time passing etc.
>                 Terry will get MAD if you forget your date...
> 
> Some of this is discussed in the FAQ for this group as already done.
> So it's just a matter of integrating some of the existing stuff to make
> a complete package.

You're dreaming!  Many have hopes, but few have prototypes!  I'm sure 
there are some packages that outdo TADS in one way or another (and for 
all I know, we'll end up switching... anybody wanna advocate one?), but 
#1, 3, 4, and 5 are *hairy*.

> I hope this doesn't degenerate into some simplistic story like:
>         begin-meet-kiss-engaged-married-end.

Let's *start* there, and bootstrap up...

> It is totally unrealistic to model real life, but a more complex story
> would make this game playable the second time (or third or fourth)

There's a tricky question to clarify here, regarding replayability as 
desirable.

I don't see any problem with a game you can read completely without 
starting over, and I *do* see a problem with forcing the player to 
retrace familiar ground, boringly, to get to sections of text that she'd 
otherwise miss.

I think that one read-thru is plenty, realistically, as a goal.  But you 
should come thru feeling like you've discovered-by-experiment some 
useful models of how relationships develop.

There's this autonomous-reality sandtrap that I'm also falling into, way 
too often, that says if you go into a bar where seven different men are 
waiting to hit on you, you should be able to choose any of them and get 
a rich full experience.  But that's really seven novels in one, and need 
not be the norm.

> The following is my attempt at a relationship model
> (Yes. very very simplistic! let's group-create a better one)
> 
> begin
> STEP 1) two people meet
>         EITHER  one rejects other
>                         EITHER  rejected leaves interaction place
>                         OR      rejected goes to other encounter

you've got to break one-rejects-other down into
player rejects NPC [is that the right term, for computer-controlled 
character?]
and
NPC rejects player

>         OR      both accept romance possibility
>                         Public Conversation Starts
> 
>         OR      both defer romance decision
>                         STEP 1) Small talk - no real purpose
>                         STEP 2) people separate to other encounter
> 
>         OR      both accept friendship possibility
>                         Friend Conversation starts

Some hip comic strip like Zippy had an episode where instead of talking, 
the characters *described* their speech-item-types: 
Him: "Humorous double-entendre icebreaking question?"
Her: "Snappy noncommital comeback."
Him: "Indirect inquiry about availability?"  etc.

I hate the idea of preprogrammed smalltalk... but I guess if you gave 
them 20 random conventional threads, it *would* be pretty realistic!

>  [...]   Make Plans
>             MAYBE Trade telephone numbers
>             MAYBE Make Date
>             MAYBE Progress to Private Conversation
> 
> Friendship Conversation
>         MAYBE Invite to Party/ Dinner Party
>         MAYBE Introduce to someone else
> 
> Private Conversation
>         STEP 1) Move to more private place
>         STEP 2) More serious discussions
> 
> End

You forgot the part about their underwear! ;^)

Seriously, I think the genre demands that the second-date nicety be 
overthrown.

> Anyway I think that to be successful, the initial design for a romantic
> Interactive Fiction game should NOT be biased toward one gender for the 
player
> and should not be the equivalent of a romantic shoot-em-up arcade game.

Gender bias is like the how-many-stories problem-- if you allow two 
totally different paths, then you may as well write two fictions.
And generally I'd like to assume our audience is female.

But, in general, *yeah*...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vladimir Nabokov ("Transparent Things"):
When *we* concentrate on a material object, whatever its situation, the 
very act of attention may lead to our involuntarily sinking into the 
history of that object.  Novices must learn to skim over matter if they 
want matter to stay at the exact level of the moment.  Transparent 
things, through which the past shines!
  Man-made objects, or natural ones, inert in themselves but much used 
by careless life (you are thinking, and quite rightly so, of a hillside 
stone over which a multitude of small animals have scurried in the 
course of incalculable seasons) are particularly difficult to keep in 
surface focus: novices fall through the surface, humming happily to 
themselves, and are soon reveling with childish abandon in the story of 
this stone, of that heath...

(This is in reference to David's elaborate scene-setting, vaguely.)

Jorn


