From xemacs-m  Fri Mar  7 11:02:53 1997
Received: from steadfast.teradyne.com (steadfast.teradyne.com [131.101.1.200])
	by xemacs.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA20713
	for <xemacs-beta@xemacs.org>; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:02:52 -0600 (CST)
Received: from engine.ecf.teradyne.com (engine.ecf.teradyne.com [131.101.192.6]) by steadfast.teradyne.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA00084; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:05:36 -0500 (EST)
Received: from midnight.eng.ecf.teradyne.com (midnight.ecf.teradyne.com [131.101.192.49]) by engine.ecf.teradyne.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA25648; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:01:41 +0100 (MET)
Received: by midnight.eng.ecf.teradyne.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id SAA04440; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:01:41 +0100
To: Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk>
Cc: XEmacs Beta Mailing List <xemacs-beta@xemacs.org>
Subject: Re: Customize: Ease Of Use?
References: <rxs67z42x4b.fsf@midnight.ecf.teradyne.com>
X-Face: 4[iHdXiTu\V3u[~\I)<f9HC);%~nG8`oUqv#uzvs6=\V{AjN6Sn
 c/qi;YLwRmEbt8Y*=j5n(urqY@chPh@J'D"QlqD!C8>*}#kYF[-tYl3VZga/HSOP|K,{L
 Rtu@f0y/=O&Cu}\:~d|P$JON?pn?j,&CnPb1z#/TL9bkAJwyol&a:SvYj-VYbM=Dtxhk9
 =w|R6U3_;SH&B<Mfy6Q%#
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.105)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
From: Adrian Aichner <aichner@ecf.teradyne.com>
Date: 07 Mar 1997 18:01:39 +0100
In-Reply-To: Adrian Aichner's message of 07 Mar 1997 04:34:44 +0100
Message-ID: <rxszpwf1vrg.fsf@midnight.ecf.teradyne.com>
Lines: 115
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.17/XEmacs 20.1

>>>>> "A" == Adrian Aichner <aichner@ecf.teradyne.com> writes:

Hello Per,

I'm not sure you've seen this article I wrote yesterday.
The message id is said to be totally fudged out.

I tried to give some user-perspective feedback.
Please let me know if you want more details on this.

Overall I like the Customize package, I was just pointing out the
User-Interface and XEmacs-Integration issues.

Best regards,

Adrian

    A> Hi All,

    A> I'd like to add some frog perspective:

    A> The beginner will benefit most from an easy, safe way of manipulating
    A> faces (and other things) in XEmacs, right?

    A> So I'm that novice and I check my `Options'.

    A> One is to `Edit Faces ...' so I'll do that. Who would ask for `Help'
    A> (Customize) when it seems that the Options menu is straight-forward.

    A> So, `Edit Faces' is really cu-edit-faces, which is `custom-face' more or
    A> less. So I go about changing fonts. I want to change the `default'
    A> font and find the promising entry `Family', now who's family is that?
    A> Oh the font's, I see. What legal values are there? Hmmh, none, ? does
    A> not complete on any. Hours later I have the visionary experience to do
    A> a C-h a font.*family

    A> and find the poorly documented `font-family-mappings', expecting the
    A> first entry of each list is the key for the family with the remaining
    A> entries being legal values. Nope! Ah, finally I figure out that what
    A> *I* really want is "lucidatypewriter".

    A> I had tried "-*-Lucida Sans Typewriter-*-R-*-*-*-120-75-75-*-*-ISO8859-1"
    A> before, which custom saved for me as:
    A> " * Lucida Sans Typewriter * R * * * 120 75 75 * * ISO8859 1"
    A> Well, thanks.

    A> Also the Family:
    A> can be edited in the minibuffer (when hitting return
    A> on the family value). But the minibuffer editing is non-standard: I
    A> cannot just go the beginning of the value (C-a) and kill to the end
    A> (by C-k) because there is matching for "\n"going on, brrrrr!
    A> It can be edited more conveniently be TAB-ing or mousing to it and
    A> killing the value in-place with C-k and typing.

    A> The Foreground:
    A> value cannot be edited in-place in the custom buffer. You have to hit
    A> RETURN and do the editing in the minibuffer, but you get legal color
    A> values by completing on ?. Now that is dandy! I quickly choose a color
    A> of my liking and carry on, to apply me changes. I back-up by S-TAB or
    A> A-TAB all the way to the [*] box. On RETURN I get prompted what I
    A> want. Encouraged from me recent success with ? I do just that and see
    A> `Set' amongst others. I type set. No, no, I have to type Set. Isn't
    A> that what it said in that first place? Bad user! Alternatively, I
    A> could have typed saRETURN. Completion would change that to Set, but
    A> set just doesn't work. OK, Set, Save, I am done (or was that finished?).

    A> Oh, yes, I was `Editing Faces...' and now I want to change the size of
    A> all the fonts (I left them alone in the custom buffer) via
    A> Options
    A> 	Size
    A> 		12
    A> and
    A> Save Options

    A> Now there is a real integration problem! These font sizes get saved
    A> nowhere!

    A> I'll have to do that in the customization buffer as well but nobody
    A> tells me that.

    A> Using
    A> M-x custom-faces font-by-font greatly improves startup-performance of
    A> the custom buffer BTW.

    A> Short Break

    A> I am starting to appreciate `custom' after fighting with it for a *few*
    A> hours. I'm afraid five less enduring Xemacs beginners will have turned
    A> their back on custom during that time. I think all these issues are
    A> just minor integration issues which surely can be fixed, font family
    A> completion support being a real important one. And, hey, this is
    A> called beta-software still, so I'm not really complaining.

    A> And please separate the old Edit Faces functionality very clearly from
    A> `Customize'. That suggestion to move Edit Faces to the Tools menu and
    A> call it Browse Faces ... seems like an excellent suggestion.

    A> Good Night :-]
    A> :-:-
    A> Adrian

    A> -- 
    A>   Teradyne GmbH               Adrian Aichner Applications Engineer
    A>   Semiconductor Test Group    Telephone      +49/89/418 61 (0)-208
    A>   Dingolfinger Strasse 2      Fax            +49/89/418 61-217
    A>   D-81673 M"UNCHEN            E-mail         aichner@ecf.teradyne.com




-- 
  Teradyne GmbH               Adrian Aichner Applications Engineer
  Semiconductor Test Group    Telephone      +49/89/418 61 (0)-208
  Dingolfinger Strasse 2      Fax            +49/89/418 61-217
  D-81673 M"UNCHEN            E-mail         aichner@ecf.teradyne.com

